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tarboy
Guest
Yes, my post was off
‘registered’ count is up and attendance has stabalized.
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‘registered’ count is up and attendance has stabalized.
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stewstew03
Guest
Who expressed “joy?”
Sure, it’s the law of numbers. If you have 10 bananas and 6 oranges, and end up eating half of each - you’ll have more banana peels (5) than orange peels (3).
“Full” of former Catholics? Doubtful…
You started off admonishing some sort of alleged schadenfreude but here you are denigrating three new Christians: (1) a never-confirmed-cradle-Catholic, (2) a former protestant who married a devout Catholic, and (3) a former atheist who married a Catholic. Is this, in your view, evidence of “artificial” growth? Are these three new Christians not really “Christians?”
So if they become evangelicals they’re not real Christians? I’m confused…
Among evangelicals, Catholics, and mainline protestants - the latter has the lowest retention rate (see Putnam & Campbell, American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us).
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stewstew03
Guest
Then it’s settled - you haven’t contributed in any way to the discussion on this thread except to criticize the title of the article. Well done, tarboy.
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SecretGarden
Guest
I agree totally with Cat’s statement. Unfortunately our educational programs end at confirmation. I grew up inside the United Church which is very similar to the united church. It was dull and boring. In my teens, I left because I was bored. Catholicism for youth can be extremely boring. If you want to keep the youth and young adults inside the Catholic church, one needs to take the model the evangelical churches use and use it inside the Catholic church. Catholics forget the Evangelical Protestants are Christians and we can learn a great deal from them such as how to keep our young people inside our churches. I used to attend a Pentecostal youth group and most of the people I went with are still active inside the church. While the young people I grew up while I was part of the United Church, very few still attend church. If we want the young people to stay, make god fun and provide leaders that the youth can rely upon to ask questions and be there for them. Many of my former leaders were surrogate parents and I wouldn’t be the person I am without their love and guidance.I’ve posted this in the Family section before, and I’ll say it again here.
A very wise (Protestant) pastor, the father of three sons, told me something once that I have never forgotten. He said that almost ALL children and teenagers do not have a real faith of their own; they only imitate their parents’ faith (or lack of faith). Even if they are super-religious, reading the Bible, praying, going to church, going to youth group, volunteering at soup kitchenes, serving on short term missionary trips–it’s still not their own faith…yet.
As they grow up, many of these young people fall away from church and religion because it never was their faith, it was their parents’ faith, and once they are away from their parents, the faith is gone, too.
It is vital that everyone has a “conversion” or whatever you want to call it, when they actually make an adult decision to trust and obey Jesus. Many of us have made this decision. Almost every serious adult Catholic that I know has a testimony of a time in their lives when Christianity all made sense and they made a mature decision to follow Christ and submit to the Catholic Church (Christ’s Church).
For many Catholics (and I would say Protestants, too), this adult decision comes when children are born. People are willing to go without any religion as long as there are no little ones, but they want their children to have the experience of church and all the rich rituals and traditions (and yes, even though they are different, most Protestant churches have some kind of rituals and traditions; e.g., many churches have a Rally Day or Founder’s Day. e.g., many churches have a Praise and Worship time–yes, this is a ritual!)
Some people get upset when I make these statements, because they swear that THEIR teenager is very religious and that their faith is definitely real.
They also point out that many of the saints were teenagers when they came to faith and when they died.
So of course there are exceptions. I’m sure there are teenagers who have a real, personal faith in Jesus.
But I think it’s important for every parent to realize that more than likely, their wonderful faith-filled teenager is actually just mimicking them, which is kinda neat. But the real test will come when the teenager leaves home. We need to pray for our older children!
As for reaching out to teenagers with music, pizza, etc.–c’mon, y’all, it doesn’t hurt! Many teenagers, even those from lovely families, have the need to “break away” from the parents and become independent adults. These “youth groups” give them a place to go to be away from their parents for a while, but in a good way.
Also, many youth groups get involved with various service projects in the Church, and this is very important to helping a teenager come to a point where they make an adult commitment to Christ and His Church–service holds them accountable; people are counting on them to fulfil their task. They have a “place” in the Church–that’s what keeps a lot of teenagers going to Church after they graduate because they know that they have a unique place, purpose, or “niche” in that parish.
As long as teenagers in the parish are not “required” to attend the youth group, I don’t know what the problem is. Different strokes for different folks. Let the teens who love this kind of group go and God bless them. And let the teens who really hate “youth groups” stay away, and God bless them, too.
I had an awesome youth group growing up, and many of the teens that were in that youth group grew up to be faith-filled. They are still active in churches all over the world today. What’s sad is that now that we are older, we are starting to meet up with each other again–at funerals.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
It’s so encouraging to see these expressions of brotherly love.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Roy,
I started this thread with you in mind and you never posted. Here is what liberality will do for you.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=666955
The Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians (ECO) is an American church body holding to Presbyterian governance and Reformed theology, formed by member churches of The Fellowship of Presbyterians in 2012 as a response, in part, to concerns over increasingly liberal theology within the Presbyterian Church (USA).
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Cat
Guest
I’m hoping that this same kind of thing happens in the United Methodist Church. A few years back, the Confessing Movement within that denomination deferred plans to split away and form a conservative Methodist church that holds to the original teachings of the Methodist church and rejects the liberal theology and liberal social issues (e.g., condoning abortion, welcoming homosexual pastors, encouraging homosexuals to continue to practice their homosexuality, etc.)
I’m not sure when the next UMC convention is, but I’m really hoping that the group will split. I can’t understand how Christians can sit for week after week in a UMC and listen to the fallacies being upheld from the pulpit.
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Cat
Guest
I agree with so much of this. I’m not sure that “making God fun” is really necessary! But parishes should be working towards making “Church” fun–not the Mass, mind you, but the activities OUTSIDE of the Mass.
And I agree with someone else above who posted that young people need, above all else, to know that someone actually gives a hoot about them. A lot of times, the activity doesn’t really matter, but what’s important is that loving, caring people are in charge, people who can connect with the people in attendance and help them to find their place in the parish.
Sadly, it seems to me that many young people (and many older people) find more “fellowship” in a bar than in a church. The Cheers theme song comes to mind–a place where everybody knows your name. That certainly describes many bars, while it describes very few Catholic parishes. Also, in many bars, there is good music, which is often not the situation in Catholic churches (I’m not talking about the Mass here–I’m talking about the parishes sponsoring concerts by good contemporary Christian musicians, either professional or amateur.)
Now obviously many Catholics parishes are humongous, and it’s not likely that everybody will know everybody’s names. But there should at least be a reasonable sized group that knows you when they see you. It’s easy to see why people leave Catholic churches if week after week and year after year, they never manage to connect with anyone.
Instead of scoffing at Protestant youth groups, leaders in Catholic parishes need to look seriously at the parish activities, and try to determine if more activities that allow for opportunities for fellowship and friendships should be offered.
I would also say that parishes need to poll the youth, not through a paper or even an online poll (although online might get more respondents), but through a personal contact, over the phone or through a lunch appointment, or even through meeting with small groups (3 or 4) young people.
**Also, the parishes need to seek out those who have left the parish, and conduct an exit interview to see what can be done to prevent more attrition. ** Much of what we are discussing in this thread is our own opinion, but none of us have actually left! We’re just speculating, and we (and I include myself in that “we”!) could be totally off-base! So doesn’t it make sense to ask those who have actually left why they left?
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septimine
Guest
I think one of the big problems is that our approach is wrong. It’s not the music and so on, it’s that we’re so busy marketing church and trying to be “hip” that we give the impression that religion is just another social activity to fit in to a busy schedule. When “youth” music and so on is the focus, I think it gives the impression that it’s all just not so important. I think we should be focused on telling people why Christianity is important, not how it’s "hip’. No one tries to make school hip, or work hip, or family hip – we see those things as important in their own right and not something to be messed with to make them "relevent’ to youth. I think a message that says “this stuff is important and it’s so important that we will treat it as important, and not simply another market for youthiness” will eventually pay off more than “See, we’re willing to turn ourselves inside out to appeal to the youth demographic”. If what you are is gong to change, why do I want to be like you?
Personally, I think catholics have a big advantage as they can easily talk about saints and martyrs. People don’t submit to being tortured to death for hipness, just for reality.
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Stilldreamn
Guest
This speaks to authenticity, and at least in my personal experience with teenagers is more important than we may think. My 19 year old son loves the old form liturgy our church uses and is happy to serve as crucifer or another role - but as he says “if I want to hear metal, I go to a concert. I know that what I’m doing in church is worshipping.”
I would think the liturgical churches actually have an advantage in attracting younger people - kids know the real deal when they see it.
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Roy5
Guest
Code:
If I'm not mistaken the General Conference of the UMC, held every four years, is meeting now - or very soon.
True, the UMC is severely split over one issue in particular: how to handle homosexuality. This includes two main questions: ordaining practicing gays and marrying gay couples, Plus whether to label homosexual behavior as inconsistent with Christian teaching. The conservative position likely will win because of Methodist strength in the midwest and south, where is has the largest numbers.
The genius of various Protestant denominations is that people of diverse views on matters of faith sit side by side week after week peacefully. Actually, the same is true among Catholics, but with a top-down government Catholics show their objection by attending mass once or twice a year, avoiding confession altogether, or simply leaving the Church to join a mainstream Protestant church or no church at all.
It was John Wesley who said 'think and let think'. He also said something to the effect that if you love God as I do, and seek to serve him as I do, let's join hands and walk together. Wouldn't it be great if all Christians had that attitude? Sadly, too many Catholic and evangelical Protestants are quite convinced that they, and they alone, have the truth.
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stewstew03
Guest
And your sarcasm is credited to you as “brotherly love?” You appear to have a knack for irony.
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tarboy
Guest
I started a new thread with data on all US congregations.
I still feel the article in this thread was poorly written
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mark_a
Guest
Apples and oranges. Your article speaks of Catholics leaving for evangelicalism, not for the world.
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PumpkinSeed
Guest
It’s not just the Catholic Church, its religion entirely.
Alot of people are becoming atheists these days. And I can understand why, but at the same time, its not enough to tear me from my faith. Maybe someday they will come back before its too late.
Alot of people are becoming atheists these days. And I can understand why, but at the same time, its not enough to tear me from my faith. Maybe someday they will come back before its too late.
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stewstew03
Guest
A-to-the-men, PumpkinSeed.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
I was being ironic, but not sarcastic.
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stewstew03
Guest
Touché.
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vera_dicere
Guest
I went to a few Catholic youth groups and a few Protestant ones when I was younger. Both were the same in that it was all about “socalising” and eating pizza and watching some non-offensive G rated movie. The only difference theologically between the Cath and Prot ones was teh Protestant ones I went to often ranted against the Catholic Church. The Catholic ones hardly showed themselves as Catholic.
I stopped bothering with those groups as they were simply another social outlet, I might as well have been going to a Star Trek club or something.
What I really wanted was to know my faith, know what it taught, know how to share it, know how to answer the tough questions. I found all those answers online, which is a shame, because as Christians we’re not meant to act in isolation.
I think both Catholics and Protestants alike who run these groups need to know, from at elast my perspective, my generation wants the conservative answers and the truth, we’re sick of the over sexed, over hyped, rubbish our secular society is spreading. This society has left us empty, and going to some pizza/video night at a Church doesn’t feed us any more than the same event at an atheists’ club.
I stopped bothering with those groups as they were simply another social outlet, I might as well have been going to a Star Trek club or something.
What I really wanted was to know my faith, know what it taught, know how to share it, know how to answer the tough questions. I found all those answers online, which is a shame, because as Christians we’re not meant to act in isolation.
I think both Catholics and Protestants alike who run these groups need to know, from at elast my perspective, my generation wants the conservative answers and the truth, we’re sick of the over sexed, over hyped, rubbish our secular society is spreading. This society has left us empty, and going to some pizza/video night at a Church doesn’t feed us any more than the same event at an atheists’ club.
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