Protestants, explain Fatima.

[abucs]

In 1910 the revolution in Portugal brought to government a group that called themselves Soviets.

The Soviets also tried revolution in Russia in the same year but were defeated by the Czar. (In Odessa).

7 years later the Soviets tried again in Russia and this time succeeded. After the fall of the Soviets in Portugal the term Soviet became associated with Russia, and has been ever since.

But the group in Portugal in 1910 were also Soviets, and called themselves - Soviets.

Reference - Meet the Witnesses by John Haffert. Interviews with Portuguese witnesses of the time.

Also

Lenin had said to Trotsky in Paris before the Russian revolution, in the plotting of Marxism for the world:
“Our revolution is international. We will begin simultaneously on the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and Spain) and in Russia, and one day we will close the revolution across Europe”.

The year chosen for simultaneous revolt in both east and west was 1910.

Reference - Fatima in the Light of History by Costa Brochado.

freemasonrywatch.org/portugal_revolution.html

 

[1234]

And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: ]That thou art Peter[rock]; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

(Emphasis mine)

I have never understood why Jesus, who was a Jew and spoke Aramaic, and who probably did not know any Greek (he might have known some Latin, being around Roman soldiers), would have described something so important as selecting Peter to lead his flock, would, first of all, give Simon Bar-Jonah(son of Jonah) a GREEK name which is a pun on the GREEK word for ‘rock’.

Jesus, a Jew, gives Simon Bar-Jonah, a Jew, aGreek name which Jesus knows is a reference or pun on the Greek word for ‘rock’.

Does this make sense? Or does sound like a later interpolation into a text, being written in Greek by someone who knew Greek, justifying the early Christian abandonment of the conversion of the Jews and desire to convert the Greeks, which is exactly what happened in early Christianity.

 

[Kaninchen]

In 1910 the revolution in Portugal brought to government a group that called themselves Soviets.

Soviet is just a word, a Russian word, it means ‘council’. Nobody in Portugal in 1910 decided to call themselves by the Russian word for ‘council’.

The Soviets also tried revolution in Russia in the same year but were defeated by the Czar. (In Odessa).

No, they certainly did not. There was a failed revolution in 1905 in which no faction of the Russian Social Democratic Party played a significant role - and certainly not the Bolsheviki.

7 years later the Soviets tried again in Russia and this time succeeded. After the fall of the Soviets in Portugal the term Soviet became associated with Russia, and has been ever since.

There were two revolutions in Russia in 1917. The Bolsheviki seized control of the ‘soviets’ after the first one.

But the group in Portugal in 1910 were also Soviets, and called themselves - Soviets.

No they did not.

Reference - Meet the Witnesses by John Haffert. Interviews with Portuguese witnesses of the time.

I’d be fascinated by direct, checkable evidence that anybody in the Portuguese military revolt of 1910 used the word ‘soviet’ to describe themselves or that there was any link whatsoever between their activities and a small faction of the Russian Social Democratic Party, known as the Bolsheviks (‘majority’, although they were the minority) that was eventually to seize control of the workers’ and soldiers’ councils in October (Russian calendar) 1917.

I’d also be interested in any direct, checkable evidence of the expropriation of industrial/commercial enterprises, the establishment of workers and peasants collective enterprises and other features of Soviet power in Portugal in that era.

Lenin had said to Trotsky in Paris before the Russian revolution, in the plotting of Marxism for the world:
“Our revolution is international. We will begin simultaneously on the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and Spain) and in Russia, and one day we will close the revolution across Europe”.

The year chosen for simultaneous revolt in both east and west was 1910.

Reference - Fatima in the Light of History by Costa Brochado.

freemasonrywatch.org/portugal_revolution.html

Actually, what Lenin said was:

“One day, people who get cross about some particular set of people they don’t like because they’re not fond of Catholics either will make up all sorts of things as they go along in order to try to make a link to us.”

Reference - “Naughty People in History” by ‘Some Guy’ on ‘Some Website’

 

[abucs]

Well, we have the same people organising revolts, at the same time with the same intention and behaving in the same manner once in power.

We seem to simply be argueing if the group in Portugal called themselves Soviets. I have given references where the people in Portugal under that regime clearly state that the people in power called themself Soviet.

Soviet may be a Russian word, it obviously does not preclude the use in the Portugal case given the common bond between revolutionary groups.

One example, you can obviously be a Republican without being Latin.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_publica

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, we have the same people organising revolts, at the same time with the same intention and behaving in the same manner once in power.

We seem to simply be argueing if the group in Portugal called themselves Soviets. I have given references where the people in Portugal under that regime clearly state that the people in power called themself Soviet.

Soviet may be a Russian word, it obviously does not preclude the use in the Portugal case given the common bond between revolutionary groups.

One example, you can obviously be a Republican without being Latin.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_publica

There is an old saying “if you find yourself in a hole, quit digging.”

Quit digging abucs.

 

[abucs]

Well, what can i say to such a well reasoned comment.

I am simply quoting what the Portuguese people of that time have said, and still say.

Were you there ?

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, what can i say to such a well reasoned comment.

Hey, if you want to get into a discussion about the history of the Russian Social Democratic Party and its potential relationship to the founding and development of the First Republic in Portugal, let’s just do that. If you want to include, in this discussion, the development of Marxist thought during the era of the Second and Third Internationals, then, let’s just do that.

I’m sorry to have seemed to have wanted to dampen down the discussion. Perhaps you’d like introduce a discussion of the relationship between the military coup and the Second International together with any communication they might have had in their planning with Zürich.

 

[abucs]

No, i am simply quoting the Portuguese people of that time.
You may disagree with the people and what they say.
That is entirely up to you. But they were there.
If you were there, then i will take what you say seriously.

This whole tangent must be what - 0.5% of the initial post ?

I have absolutely no desire to begin now to go off on a new tangent to a tangent.

 

[Kaninchen]

No, i am simply quoting the Portuguese people of that time.
You may disagree with the people and what they say.

If the ‘Portuguese people’ said that, then they’re talking absolute nonsense, or, as Margaret Thatcher used to say, ‘nonsense on stilts’. Looked like a load of really, really weak conspiracy theory to me.

That is entirely up to you.

If you’re going to make such a fuss (as you did) based on nothing even approaching sensible academic history, you should expect to be taken to task over it.

This whole tangent must be what - 0.5% of the initial post ?

According to you the whole business started out in Soviet Portugal, why not just say ‘anti-clerical’ Portugal? What was the point?

I have absolutely no desire to begin now to go off on a new tangent to a tangent.

You could have just climbed out of the hole very much earlier, you didn’t have to keep digging.

 

[abucs]

I say again.

The people of Portugal of that time have witnessed that the anti clerical group coming to power called themselves Soviets.
Because they have said that, then my initial post called them Soviets also. It is quite simple.

 

[Kaninchen]

I say again.

The people of Portugal of that time have witnessed that the anti clerical group coming to power called themselves Soviets.

Show any vaguely sensible source for that statement. [exact references]

Because they have said that, then my initial post called them Soviets also. It is quite simple.

Demonstrate it.

 

[abucs]

I have given two books as reference.
Alternately you can take a plane to Portugal and see them face to face, as i have.

 

[Kaninchen]

I have given two books as reference.
Alternately you can take a plane to Portugal.

In other words, not the slightest evidence whatsoever, just some weird conspiracy site.

Why do you seem to think that a European like myself isn’t familiar with Portugal?

 

[Kaninchen]

see them face to face, as i have.

So, you must have lots more evidence for the Portuguese Soviet of 1910 than some weird conspiracy site.

 

[abucs]

Apart from your Thatcher quote, i had no clue as to where you were from.
Just as you do not know where i am from, or have been.

In fact, i asked you if you were from Portugal, so in no way was i assuming your unfamiliarity. That’s why i asked.

 

[Steve_Pearson]

here is a link if you don’t know anything about it. ewtn.com/fatima/

i would love to know the protestant view on this and why God gave Catholics such a great miracle that hasn’t been done for protestants…

Do some think that only Catholics get special mirracles from the Father?

I have never heard of Fatima before now. But I have no reason to doubt it.

God has given me, a mere Protestant, many miracles. Life, salavation, and the list goes on. But a recent perosnal miracle might interest you.

In December 2006 after 10-years of progressively severe liver disease and four near fatal liver infections, I was placed on a liver transplant list. My family was about to loose a husband and dad. I was so sick.

I sought devine healing in January 2007 at the RHEMA Word of Faith healing school. There I was taught an understanding about faith and healing.

In a session with Godly folk (mostly Pentecostal folk I might add) I asked for healing just like the beggar in Luke 18:35 - 42. I was healed instantly by God and have been without symptoms to this day! WOO HOO what a miracle!

I took myself off the liver transplant list.

Like the beggar I praise God! But it is amazing how many people do not believe my testimony.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

 

[abucs]

That’s great news Steve.
I hope you didn’t go out drinking to celebrate.

 

[Techno2000]

I don’t know where you are getting the above argument, it makes very little logical sense given the issues. How do you get this argument from a statement of fact that the Bible says Christ atones for our sins? Nobody has suggested anything like that.

But, going back to the first thing you said, “Yes, Jesus is our atonement and our way to heaven,”

Yes, and did the apparition at Fatima say this? NO. That’s the only thing that matters! The apparition did NOT say this!

I am getting the idea that few Catholics have ever bothered to read what this demon said to the children at Fatima, and fewer still have bothered to open their Bibles to compare the words to the apparition.

That’s one dumb demon, showing them
visions of hell .

 

[abucs]

That’s one dumb demon, showing them
visions of hell .

 

[system]

One of the things I haven’t seen mentioned is the fact that it was pouring rain at the time of the appearance of Our Lady of Fatima, yet when the miracle was finished, everyone was dry. As a Catholic, I believe without a doubt this to be truly a miracle that naysayers will always question.