Protestants, explain Fatima.

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .
2. The sun did not really “dance” or other witnesses would have seen it.
…Since there is only one sun, the “dancing” phenomenon would have been visible in other areas as well.

I have been told that all the rest of Europe was clouded over that day. The sun could only be seen from the area around Fatima.

…when the sun blackened at the crucifixion everyone saw it
…it has been scientifically proven that an eclipse occurred on the date we believe the crucifixion occurred . .

That would be an even greater miracle. Has science shown how the moon traversed half its orbit in a couple of hours? I would like to see that proof. Passover occurs at the Full Moon [the moon is on the far side of the earth from the sun]; Eclipses can only happen at the New Moon [the moon is between the earth and the sun].

 

[revelations]

Protestant or not we are all one church. Why worry about all this separation when Jesus is coming. We have much to do to prepare ourselves! I only have 60 years (at best) left God willing to do what i have to!

No matter how much the protestants kick and scream, and no matter how much we argue, we are all one church united in the baptism of Christ. Every true Lutheran is homesick, and eventually all will come home.

Like others have said, Fatima is not required as a doctrine of the faith. It can’t even be proven to have happened for real. The church approved it only because the teachings that came from it do not contradict any existing dogma. Mary probably did appear, but not just to the Catholic faithful, to everyone there.

This is probably the greatest reason that medjogore isn’t going to be approved, because Mary keeps on appearing. If medjugore truly is from the evil one, it is possible she could give a message contrary to the doctrine of the faith after approval but they would be taken as true and cause mass confusion and schism in the Church. Yes medjugore has good fruits, but I am sure the devil is willing to let these go for now in effort for a greater gain: church approval. Fatima was a one time event, medjugore is ongoing. The church is wise in it’s prudence.

The apparition at fatima was not for the pope alone, it was for the faithful in Christ, protestants included. There was no red velvet rope and a burly man with a clip board letting people in…

January is the month for Christian unity, please everyone say a decade of your rosary for unification. Let us leave it to the holy spirit to decide what exactly unification means…

revelations

 

[xmydreamsfadex]

there is only one Church, and that is the Catholic Church. others are considered faith communities. not all chrisitans are united to the One True Church.
it also doesn’t make sense that the Church would aprove Fatima just because it doesn’t go against a dogma. anyone then could just come up with some story, making sure it doesn’t do against dogma, then have it approved by the Church.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Since there is only one sun, the “dancing” phenomenon would have been visible in other areas as well…

I can recall one time during a bush fire season here in Sydney, I looked up and saw the sun was just a blazing red disc. It was spectacular… and nobody else in the world saw it. (Obviously, it was just the smoke filled air of Sydney that caused it.)

My point is that there could have been something miraculous in the Fatima atmosphere which made the sun “appear” to dance to only those people in the Fatima area.

Anyway… to be honest, I’m not courageous enough to call 70,000 people at Fatima a bunch of liars.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Fatima is not required as a doctrine of the faith…

Well, it isn’t for Catholics. But I think Protestants are required to dismiss it. :twocents:

 

[Ginger2]

I can recall one time during a bush fire season here in Sydney, I looked up and saw the sun was just a blazing red disc. It was spectacular… and nobody else in the world saw it. (Obviously, it was just the smoke filled air of Sydney that caused it.)

My point is that there could have been something miraculous in the Fatima atmosphere which made the sun “appear” to dance to only those people in the Fatima area.

Anyway… to be honest, I’m not courageous enough to call 70,000 people at Fatima a bunch of liars.

Ok, Obviously I am confusing this with another situation.

I agree the atmosphere can cause the illusion of something that is not.

Since this is not important enough for me to spend the time necessary to research, I will say not comment in the future on it.

I will ask, what is the miracle claimed? Simply that the sun appeared differently than other days, or that it’s appearance accompanied a miracle.

I think the surrounding circumstances could say a lot about what actually happened. Afterall, the Bible says people will see signs and wonders that will be mistaken for signs from God.

 

[Kaninchen]

I have been told that all the rest of Europe was clouded over that day. The sun could only be seen from the area around Fatima.

Given the distances between Portugal and the Urals and from southern Spain, Italy and Greece to northern Norway together the pattern of European weather systems, that would be rather unlikely.

Meanwhile, since by midday in Portugal, the sun would be up in Brazil (4 hours behind) and the Eastern US (5 hours behind), were they similarly cloudy?

[Actually, the area involved at midday at Fatima would stretch from the US more or less to China - that’s a lot of cloud]

 

[xmydreamsfadex]

So, just because the whole world didn’t see the miracle it should be dimissed? i don’t think that it was ever said that the whole world would see the miracle. also, if it is so false, why did three illiterate little kids predict the exact date and time? notice to that the miracle didn’t lead anybody away from the Church, which i think would have happened if it was the devil’s doing. how can making sacrifices to God, prayer (especially praying the Rosary) be seen as a sign from someone other than the Lord?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Given the distances between Portugal and the Urals and from southern Spain, Italy and Greece to northern Norway together the pattern of European weather systems, that would be rather unlikely. . . ]

Miracles have a tendency to be unlikely.

 

[revelations]

So, just because the whole world didn’t see the miracle it should be dimissed?

Not at all! The whole world didn’t see Jesus multiply the loaves, or cure the sick. But we believe…Here we have 70,000 people telling the same sort of story and 3 kids who predicted it.

notice to that the miracle didn’t lead anybody away from the Church, which i think would have happened if it was the devil’s doing. how can making sacrifices to God, prayer (especially praying the Rosary) be seen as a sign from someone other than the Lord?

Oh i totally believe and have full faith in the apparition of Fatima. Also it so happens that the secrets given to the three un-worldly young children did happen to come true in a very convincing way. Fatima bore much good fruit, and continues to do so.

I was just saying that medjugore is a different kind of message…one that keeps on happening and the Church (capital C for those who noticed ) is wise to wait on that one. The apparitions at Medjugore don’t bear fruit, the atmosphere of spirituality is what bears fruit.

 

[Kaninchen]

So, just because the whole world didn’t see the miracle it should be dimissed?

Hey, somebody brought up the issue of cloud, I was just pointing out the necessity for there to have been an awful lot of it.

Look, I’m Jewish so obviously I don’t believe in any of it (from the virgin birth onward) but I’m still allowed to say that the cloud business is oversell.

 

[Kaninchen]

Miracles have a tendency to be unlikely.

I think that the word ‘fortunately’ applies!

 

[prodromos]

According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky. It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world. Witnesses reported that the ground and their previously wet clothes became completely dry.

This could easily be demonic. Consider the following account:

A small group of eight people, to which I joined myself, was led by Colonel Elliott, who had been in Colombo before and knew the city and its environs well. He made an alluring proposition. “Ladies and gentlemen! Wouldn’t you like to go a few miles out of town and pay a visit to one of the local magician-fakirs? Perhaps we shall see something interesting.” All accepted the colonel’s proposition with enthusiasm.

It was already evening when we left behind the noisy streets of the city and rolled along a marvellous jungle road which was twinkling with the sparks of millions of fireflies. Finally, the road suddenly widened and in front of us there was a small clearing surrounded on all sides by jungle. At the edge of the clearing under a big tree there was a kind of hut, next to which a small bonfire was smouldering and a thin, emaciated old man with a turban on his head sat cross-legged and with his unmoving gaze directed at the fire. Despite our noisy arrival, the old man continued to sit completely immovable, not paying us the slightest attention. Somewhere from out of the darkness a youth appeared and, going up to the colonel, quietly asked him something. In a short while he brought out several stools and our group arranged itself in a semi-circle not far from the bonfire. A light and fragrant smoke arose. The old man sat in the same pose, apparently noticing no one and nothing. The half-moon which arose dispelled to some extent the darkness of the night, and in its ghostly light all objects took on fantastic outlines. Involuntarily everyone became quiet and waited to see what would happen.

 

[prodromos]

continued from above:

“Look! Look there, on the tree!” Miss Mary cried in an excited whisper. We all turned our heads in the direction indicated. And indeed, the whole surface of the immense crown of the tree under which the fakir was sitting was as it were gently flowing in the soft illumination of the moon, and the tree itself began gradually to melt and lose its contours; literally, some unseen hand had thrown over it an airy covering which became more and more concentrated with every moment. Soon the undulating surface of the sea presented itself with complete clarity before our astonished gaze. With a light rumble one wave followed another, making foaming white-caps; light clouds were floating in a sky which had become blue. Stunned, we could not tear ourselves away from this striking picture.

And then in the distance there appeared a white ship. Thick smoke poured out of its two large smokestacks. It quickly approached us, cleaving the water. To our great amazement we recognized it as our own ship, the one on which we had come to Colombo! A whisper passed through our ranks when we read on the stern, traced out in gold letters, the name of our ship, Luisa. But what astounded us most of all was what we saw on the ship — ourselves! Don’t forget that at the time when all this happened cinematography hadn’t even been thought of and it was impossible even to conceive of something like this. Each of us saw ourselves on the ship’s deck amongst people who were laughing and talking to each other. But what was especially astonishing: I saw not only myself, but at the same time the whole deck of the ship down to the smallest details, as if in a bird’s-eye view — which of course simply could not be in actuality. At one and the same time I saw myself among the passengers, and the sailors working at the other end of the ship, and the captain in his cabin, and even our monkey “Nelly,” a favorite of all, eating bananas on the main mast. All my companions at the same time, each in his own way, were greatly excited at what they were seeing, expressing their emotions with soft cries and excited whispers.

I had completely forgotten that I was a priest-monk and, it would seem, had no business at all participating in such a spectacle. The spell was so powerful that both the mind and the heart were silent. My heart began to beat painfully in alarm. Suddenly I was beside myself. A fear took hold of my whole being.

My lips began to move and say: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!” Immediately I felt relieved. It was just as if some mysterious chains which had bound me began to fall away. The prayer became more concentrated, and with it my peace of soul returned. I continued to look at the tree, and suddenly, as if pursued by the wind, the picture became clouded and was dispersed. I saw nothing more except the big tree, illuminated by the light of the moon, and likewise the fakir sitting in silence by the bonfire, while my companions continued to express what they were experiencing while gazing at the picture, which for them had not been broken off.

But then something apparently happened to the fakir also. He reeled to the side. The youth ran up to him in alarm. The seance was suddenly broken up.

Deeply moved by everything they had experienced, the spectators stood up, animatedly sharing their impressions and not understanding at all why the whole thing had been cut off so sharply and unexpectedly. The youth explained it as owing to the exhaustion of the fakir, who was sitting as before, his head down, and paying not the slightest attention to those present.

Having generously rewarded the fakir through the youth for the opportunity to be participants of such an astonishing spectacle, our group quickly got together for the trip back. While starting out, I involuntarily turned back once more in order to imprint in my memory the whole scene, and suddenly — I shuddered from an unpleasant feeling. My gaze met the gaze of the fakir, which was full of hatred. It was but for a single instant, and then he again assumed his habitual position; but this glance once and for all opened my eyes to the realization of whose power it was that had produced this “miracle.”

A Fakir’s “Miracle” and the Prayer of Jesus. By Archimandrite Nicholas Drobyazgin

 

[xmydreamsfadex]

it would be stupid for the demons to try to lead people to God insted of the other way around.

 

[COGHOBDOJ]

here is a link if you don’t know anything about it. ewtn.com/fatima/

i would love to know the protestant view on this and why God gave Catholics such a great miracle that hasn’t been done for protestants…

My view is that scripture tells us a wicked generation that requires a miracle.

It’s a miracle to me that even though my righteouness is like a filthy rag, that He gives me Grace to awake each morning, with new mercies and serve Him adn live for Him. It’s a miracle that He graciously give me, a sinner, fresh new revelation through His Word.

Miracles happen everyday. Everywhere, in every kind of Church that shares the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

My view is that scripture tells us a wicked generation that requires a miracle.
. . .

In his book Coincidentally, Father Rutler notes: *An evil generation seeks signs and wonders. But a stupid generation ignores signs and wonders … *

 

[xmydreamsfadex]

In his book Coincidentally, Father Rutler notes: *An evil generation seeks signs and wonders. But a stupid generation ignores signs and wonders … *

that sums it up well.

 

[Rightlydivide]

A bunch of people staring at the sun for more than 10 minutes see it dancing? Seriously folks…

 

[Lev23]

… why God gave Catholics such a great miracle that hasn’t been done for protestants…

Even though catholic approved Marian apparitions messages agree totally with catholicism, “Our Lady” has been making "her"self known to all different types of people and religions all over the world.

The thing that raises my eye is that from all the catholic approved apparitions to the non approved ones, none of the apparitions warn her followers of false apparitions of her.