Protestants, Explain this Verse

[Ruthie]

OTCA, you did quote the wrong verse. Like many former sola scriptura Protestants (and I am one), you have not given up the habit of proof-texting. It’s a hard habit to break, as I know from experioence. I’m still working on it.

You should have quoted the whole paragraph; v. 9 is what relates it to purgatory.

So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 2 Cor 5:6-10 (RSV)

Bolding mine.

We can still work to please Him when we are away from our bodies - unless we have condemned ourselves by unrepented mortal sin. (1 Jn 5:14-17) Thus we have purgatory, as our last work: the final cleaning away of the stains of sin to make us worthy to appear before God.

There are at least 15 verses which are much clearer in indicating purgatory. The one you quoted works much better against OSAS.

Heart of Jesus, glowing vessel of charity, have mercy on us.

Ruthie

 

[denwiles]

First and foremost, whether one has believed in God’s promise and in Jesus as Messiah, Lord and Saviour.

Blessings,

BRian

Thats the easiest scripture to interpet. We who are saved by the Blood of Jesus will go before the Judgement seat of Christ. Those whose works burn up will suffer lose but the person themselves will be saved Hello!!! We all believe in fruits. We are changed into a new creation. You can’t swim to become a fish, but if you are changed into a fish you swim. Why? Because that is who you are. We don’t work for salvation, other wise what do you do with the scriptures that say it’s a gift, and Paul said if you can work for it then God is obligated to pay you making it not a gift. But when we are saved we work. Some for selfish reasons and so their works burn up, but they are still saved. So this scripture that you presented proves purgatory don’t exist and you will still be saved even if your works burn up. Thank you for bringing this up!!! Your a cool person in my book. God Bless

 

[Truthstalker]

The verse has been explained and the OP’s claim is completely refuted.

 

[look3467]

Protestants are at a complete loss in coherently explaining this verse—one of the most difficult in the New Testament for them to interpret. It simply does not comport with their theology, which utterly disallows any penitential or prayerful efforts on behalf of the deceased.

2Corinthians 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body."

OK, here a view that is foreign to you all and one which is in concert with Christ being judged.

The judgment seat of Christ is where Jesus was on the judgment seat for the sins of the world.
Was not Jesus condemned to death and also sent to hell?
Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Friends, Jesus being judged in your behalf is now owner of your souls and will reward you and or convict you of any evil done in the flesh.

Your sins are accountable only in the flesh, for the wages of sin is death of the flesh, but your soul has been purchased by God’s own righteousness by Jesus your God.

If you have Jesus in your heart, you are judged daily, every second of your life.

There is no need to work any further for your salvation, for Jesus did that for you.

There is however, accountability to your own selves, to live just, love as He loved and have life more abundantly.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Your judgment for your own behavior is here and now, repent and receive life more abundantly!

After this, there no longer is judgment, for then you shall already be with Christ!

Blessing’s, AJ

 

[DrumminFool91]

AJ, I want to offer a friendly challenge to your post. First, check out Matthew 25:31-46 (NAB) below:

*“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” *

None of these words spoken by Christ say, “If you have me in your heart, then once you die, you’re judgement is over and you get to go to heaven.” You say we are actively judged during our time in the flesh and recieve punishment during our lifetimes? That thesis doesn’t account for the resurrection of the body (as in the time after death, when we are reunited to our flesh), nor does it jibe with the words of Christ in the gospel of St. Matthew. It seems pretty clear that even professed believers in this life can and do go to Hell based on their actions/in-actions. That seems to be pretty permanent, and this judgement comes in the next life. I kinda agree with you in that we see the positive and negative effects of our faith (or lack there of) and actions in this life. Scripture is clear that God blesses and curses us based on our actions. But I don’t think we’re only judged every second in this life, and I do think that our final state in life is pronounced at final judgement, and I certainly don’t think that simply professing Jesus is sufficient for salvation. I’m really looking forward to your response, but I’m out of town for the weekend and won’t be able to respond until next week (prob Tuesday). So, don’t take my long silence for a “hit-and-run” post.

Pax Vobiscum!

 

[denwiles]

AJ, I want to offer a friendly challenge to your post. First, check out Matthew 25:31-46 (NAB) below:

*“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” *

None of these words spoken by Christ say, “If you have me in your heart, then once you die, you’re judgement is over and you get to go to heaven.” You say we are actively judged during our time in the flesh and recieve punishment during our lifetimes? That thesis doesn’t account for the resurrection of the body (as in the time after death, when we are reunited to our flesh), nor does it jibe with the words of Christ in the gospel of St. Matthew. It seems pretty clear that even professed believers in this life can and do go to Hell based on their actions/in-actions. That seems to be pretty permanent, and this judgement comes in the next life. I kinda agree with you in that we see the positive and negative effects of our faith (or lack there of) and actions in this life. Scripture is clear that God blesses and curses us based on our actions. But I don’t think we’re only judged every second in this life, and I do think that our final state in life is pronounced at final judgement, and I certainly don’t think that simply professing Jesus is sufficient for salvation. I’m really looking forward to your response, but I’m out of town for the weekend and won’t be able to respond until next week (prob Tuesday). So, don’t take my long silence for a “hit-and-run” post.

Pax Vobiscum!

Who was Jesus speaking to at that time? The Catholics??? NO!!! The Jews before he went to the Cross. Salvation is a gift and no one thinks; oh I can say the Sinners prayer and go sin and never work. WRONG AGAIN. When you are saved you are a new Creature a Child of God. All old things have passed away. See I know this, but I don’t post to try to show my Bible, history, or any other knowledge. I want you to Know that you can Truly Know The real Jesus who did it all at the Cross. Paul said if you work for salvation then God is obligated to pay you. No salvation is a GIFT. What do you do with that Scripture??? Just Ignore it. Are you telling me you are trying to work to go to Heaven??? Guess What that won’t happen. You will never be good enough for God. THATS WHY JESUS CAME IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER. LOL God bless

 

[O.S.Luke]

OTCA, you did quote the wrong verse. Like many former sola scriptura Protestants (and I am one), you have not given up the habit of proof-texting. It’s a hard habit to break, as I know from experioence. I’m still working on it.

You should have quoted the whole paragraph; v. 9 is what relates it to purgatory.

Bolding mine…

There are at least 15 verses which are much clearer in indicating purgatory. The one you quoted works much better against OSAS.

Heart of Jesus, glowing vessel of charity, have mercy on us.

Ruthie

You’ll never convince her that she quoted the wrong verse. I even tried to help her to realize she’d quoted the wrong verse, but she was more interested in telling me I was a poor, old, stupid Protestant who never studied instead of realizing she’d made a honest mistake.

The Pope when ex cathrdea is infallible. OTCA, you are not. And neither am I.

O+

 

[Spirithound]

Who was Jesus speaking to at that time? The Catholics??? NO!!! The Jews before he went to the Cross. Salvation is a gift and no one thinks; oh I can say the Sinners prayer and go sin and never work. WRONG AGAIN. When you are saved you are a new Creature a Child of God. All old things have passed away. See I know this, but I don’t post to try to show my Bible, history, or any other knowledge. I want you to Know that you can Truly Know The real Jesus who did it all at the Cross. Paul said if you work for salvation then God is obligated to pay you. No salvation is a GIFT. What do you do with that Scripture??? Just Ignore it. Are you telling me you are trying to work to go to Heaven??? Guess What that won’t happen. You will never be good enough for God. THATS WHY JESUS CAME IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER. LOL God bless

So there are different rules for the Children of God, pre- and post-Crucifixion?

 

[look3467]

Hello, Pax fellow Texan

I will take your paragraph by sentences: “None of these words spoken by Christ say, "If you have me in your heart, then once you die, you’re judgment is over and you get to go to heaven”.

The judgment for our souls Jesus took in our place, so that part is out of our hands.
Can we understand that salvation has nothing to do with our righteousness?
If the understanding is yes, then we can deal with only what pertains to what is the physical.

         Note: The reason Jesus was in the physical as God, is because only God’s own                                                                                 righteousness could meet His own requirement and the “only one God” system.

In the physical Jesus took the many gods consequence of death and made us all one in Him by God’s own righteousness in the physical.

Hence, the white throne judgment fell on Jesus not us, and Jesus being the only way to heaven.

" You say we are actively judged during our time in the flesh and receive punishment during our lifetimes?”
If we in Christ are made sinless as per verses: 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The ability to sin remains as we are still physical, therefore, the physical still dies, and sin is still accountable to the flesh, even though being born of God, we go on to life eternal.

“Born of God” is the rebirth of the soul that was already dead.

If we are born again, of God, we are new creatures, sinless for the accessing of heaven, but not sinless for the requirement of the physical.

For it says that the wages of sin is death.

So only at death does sin end, for Jesus took care of the here after for us.

“That thesis doesn’t account for the resurrection of the body (as in the time after death, when we are reunited to our flesh), nor does it jibe with the words of Christ in the gospel of St. Matthew.”

In the story of creation God marries His Spirit with the physical to create a living soul.
If His Spirit is again lifted up, the physical goes back to the ground where it came from and a new spiritual body is given to us.
Ref: 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The natural occupies the natural and the spiritual, spiritual, so there are two bodies in the natural (Marriage) and are separated at the death of the natural.
The spiritual body is given to us at the resurrection of our souls. (Who we are)

“It seems pretty clear that even professed believers in this life can and do go to Hell based on their actions/in-actions”.

Hell is a standard of belief for many professed believers which is by reason not a bad idea. For some, especially little children in the faith, is needed for a standard to guard against.
But when one is more mature spiritually, that standard is no longer needed for the motive is no longer fear of hell, but rather a love for God.

We can create, or by nature of the flesh, endure a hell because of our actions/inactions.

“That seems to be pretty permanent, and this judgment comes in the next life.”

Once dead; all action of any sin committed dies with death.

If judgment came after life, then Jesus would need not to have come, because then God would take care of that in the spiritual and reward everybody according to their sins.

But Jesus came, took our eternal punishment away, and daily judges us rewards or curses’ according to our behavior.

Even un-believers fall under the same standards.

I kind of agree with you in that we see the positive and negative effects of our faith (or lack there of) and actions in this life. Scripture is clear that God blesses and curses us based on our actions.

In that you described it correctly by me.

But I don’t think we’re only judged every second in this life, and I do think that our final state in life is pronounced at final judgment, and I certainly don’t think that simply professing Jesus is sufficient for salvation.

I mean, if you want that view that’s OK to, but because the motive is to live in out new creation status out of shear love for God; then what final judgment is there…… to fear?

I’m really looking forward to your response, but I’m out of town for the weekend and won’t be able to respond until next week (probably Tuesday). So, don’t take my long silence for a “hit-and-run” post. file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/OWNER%7E1.ABE/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif

I understand.

Blessing’s, AJ

 

[look3467]

Who was Jesus speaking to at that time? The Catholics??? NO!!! The Jews before he went to the Cross. Salvation is a gift and no one thinks; oh I can say the Sinners prayer and go sin and never work. WRONG AGAIN. When you are saved you are a new Creature a Child of God. All old things have passed away. See I know this, but I don’t post to try to show my Bible, history, or any other knowledge. I want you to Know that you can Truly Know The real Jesus who did it all at the Cross. Paul said if you work for salvation then God is obligated to pay you. No salvation is a GIFT. What do you do with that Scripture??? Just Ignore it. Are you telling me you are trying to work to go to Heaven??? Guess What that won’t happen. You will never be good enough for God. THATS WHY JESUS CAME IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER. LOL God bless

You’ve got it right, but your enthusiasm to declare it is humbleness wanting.
Christs compassion was in the invitation, whosoever thirsts, come.

Work can only be done in the flesh therefore, work for salvation was done in the flesh by Jesus so that we may have a day of rest.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Jesus entered into His rest, ceased from His own works, and so do we…enter into His rest, resting from our own works.

Blessing’s, AJ

 

[look3467]

So there are different rules for the Children of God, pre- and post-Crucifixion?

If you understood the meaning of your question of pre/post cross rules, you’d be pleasantly surprised and grateful at how wonderful being on this side of the cross is.

Jesus had to meet all the requirements prior to the cross in order to exact the change at the cross for our dead souls… to that of life.

Again, appreciation to God’s love to have also included all those souls who lived and died prior to the cross, as He does us.

What a wonderful God, wouldn’t you say?

Blessing’s, AJ

 

[Peter_J]

I’ll put more stock in trusted biblical commentators - including Catholic ones - rather than you on this one.

That’s an idea so crazy it just might work.

 

[Spirithound]

If you understood the meaning of your question of pre/post cross rules, you’d be pleasantly surprised and grateful at how wonderful being on this side of the cross is.

Jesus had to meet all the requirements prior to the cross in order to exact the change at the cross for our dead souls… to that of life.

Again, appreciation to God’s love to have also included all those souls who lived and died prior to the cross, as He does us.

What a wonderful God, wouldn’t you say?

Blessing’s, AJ

God is truly wonderful.

I am concerned, however, that your post that I replied to previously seems to say that Jesus told a bunch of people how to be saved, knowing full well that the rules were going to change in a year or two.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

You’ll never convince her that she quoted the wrong verse. I even tried to help her to realize she’d quoted the wrong verse, but she was more interested in telling me I was a poor, old, stupid Protestant who never studied instead of realizing she’d made a honest mistake.

The Pope when ex cathrdea is infallible. OTCA, you are not. And neither am I.

O+

Let’s also talk about other verses that are Scriptural proof of Purgatory:

**Psalm 66:12-- “Thou didst let men ride over our heads, we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place”.

This verse was considered proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of Baptism and the fire of baptism.

Ecclesiastes 12:14— “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil”.

Protestants, what say you? O.S. Luke, are these verses wrong too?**

 

[look3467]

God is truly wonderful.

I am concerned, however, that your post that I replied to previously seems to say that Jesus told a bunch of people how to be saved, knowing full well that the rules were going to change in a year or two.

Jesus knew the time would come that would confirm all that He had said, for the cross was the center of that change.

Their faith in what Jesus had said would save them, or rather, hold them till Jesus would
pay the price.

Blessing’s, AJ

 

[O.S.Luke]

O.S. Luke, are these verses wrong too?

They certainly give more support than the wrong verse you attempted to quote previously, the one that you said “confounded” so many Protestants.

I guess in a way you were correct; what you initially quoted confounded Protestants and Catholics alike.

 

[look3467]

Let’s also talk about other verses that are Scriptural proof of Purgatory:

**Psalm 66:12-- “Thou didst let men ride over our heads, we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place”.

This verse was considered proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of Baptism and the fire of baptism.

Ecclesiastes 12:14— “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil”.

Protestants, what say you? O.S. Luke, are these verses wrong too?**

I look at verse Psalm 66:12 like this: A picture of the Israelite people ruled over by the Egyptians, through the Red Sea and guided by fire at night to the promised land.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 I see us going through the same thing in our journey through life.

This world is our Eygpt, we go through the flood and fire to a better place.

Our sur-journeying through the desert is our lives being judged daily.

Blessing’s, AJ

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

They certainly give more support than the wrong verse you attempted to quote previously, the one that you said “confounded” so many Protestants.

I guess in a way you were correct; what you initially quoted confounded Protestants and Catholics alike.

I never quoted a “wrong” verse O.S. Luke, let’s look at this one too.

**2Corinthians 7:1—Let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God". (see also Thess 3:13, 4:7)

[/BIs this one wrong too O.S. Luke?

**2timothy 1:16-18— “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, BUT WHEN HE ARRIVED IN ROME, HE SEARCHED FOR ME EAGERLY AND FOUND ME—may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus”.

**Onesiphorus appears to be dead at the time St. Paul writes this letter to Timothy. If that is true, then Paul is praying for the dead.
a well-known Protestant commentary admits that Onesiphorus is likely dead, citing the cross reference of 2 Timothy 4:19 yet takes the remarkedly incoherent position that St. Paul is praying for his conduct in life and reward at the Judgment. Thus, the admitted (2Tim. 1:18), since it supposedly refers to the earthly life of the intended recipient, somehow thereby ceases to be a prayer for the dead, even though it is pleading for mercy on the Day of Judgment for one who has departed.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I never quoted a “wrong” verse O.S. Luke, let’s look at this one too.

**2Corinthians 7:1—Let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God". (see also Thess 3:13, 4:7)

[/BIs this one wrong too O.S. Luke?

**2timothy 1:16-18— “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, BUT WHEN HE ARRIVED IN ROME, HE SEARCHED FOR ME EAGERLY AND FOUND ME—may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus”.

**Onesiphorus appears to be dead at the time St. Paul writes this letter to Timothy. If that is true, then Paul is praying for the dead.
a well-known Protestant commentary admits that Onesiphorus is likely dead, citing the cross reference of 2 Timothy 4:19 yet takes the remarkedly incoherent position that St. Paul is praying for his conduct in life and reward at the Judgment. Thus, the admitted (2Tim. 1:18), since it supposedly refers to the earthly life of the intended recipient, somehow thereby ceases to be a prayer for the dead, even though it is pleading for mercy on the Day of Judgment for one who has departed.

I’m having a hard time following you OTCA; I am sure that I am the problem and not you.

Sorry.

O+

 

[racing59]

Protestants are at a complete loss in coherently explaining this verse—one of the most difficult in the New Testament for them to interpret. It simply does not comport with their theology, which utterly disallows any penitential or prayerful efforts on behalf of the deceased.

2Corinthians 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body."

It is statments like this that truely frustrate me. Just when I start look at my beliefs and what I have in common with the Catholic Church, some one makes an OP telling me what I believe.