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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
It is not I sir, but Jesus Christ. Your gripe is with him.It is statments like this that truely frustrate me. Just when I start look at my beliefs and what I have in common with the Catholic Church, some one makes an OP telling me what I believe.
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racing59
Guest
Pretty arrogant statement saying you are Jesus Christ. I think Jim Jones and David Keresh made the same statement! People like you or why I get so turned off by orginized religion. Jessica J ha dme right there believing Catholics were different, but you sir, show the same arrogence as the scribs and pharasees. Better read Matthew 23 what Jesus said about people like that!
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DrumminFool91
Guest
Right so, according to your logic, then all things that Christ said before his crucifixion applies only to the Jews before he goes to the Cross.
I’m sure you don’t actually believe that yourself. You can probably try to make some qualifications or exceptions here, but on what basis would you consider your exceptions and qualifications in anyway authoritative? Ultimately all of our debating over scripture, theology, and philosophy will come to authority.
You yourself seem to suggest a theological system that is dependent upon works here.
I certainly agree with you that salvation is a gift from God, and one that we could never do anything to earn. You are 100% right there. I, and the Catholic Church believe and profess Sola Gratia - saved by grace alone. But we can’t condone Sola Fide. It is heresy. A prime reason it is incorrect is simply that in order for one to have faith, it first is a grace given by God Himself, then it takes an act of the will (aka ‘work’) to accept that grace. Simply saying “Yes” to Jesus is in and of itself a work. Saying a “sinner’s prayer” is a work. Living your life in conformity to the will of God is a work, but all good “works” that one can do is only made possible by the grace of God.
I often hear the phrase “When you are saved”, “Do you remember the date you were saved?” and of course “Are you saved?” This shows a major difference in thought between Catholic and Orthodox theology and main-stream Protestant / Evangelical / Non-Denominationalism. This whole idea of salvation and sanctification is just completely different. There seems to be a suggestion that being “saved” is a sort of cut and dry demarcation point. Which in my mind subtly leads to the “once saved always saved” mindset.
We, as Catholics, don’t mark a date on a calendar as “when we were saved”. It is a process, a journey. Every professed Christian clearly goes through periods in life, a sort of cycle of sin, repentance, sanctification, then illumination - exactly like Israel in the Old Testament.
While yes we remain a new creation and old things have passed away, surely we can agree that the effects of sin still remain. Take original sin - we all still die as a consequence and are still dealing with a fallen nature and concupisence - the desire for lower or sinful things contrary to reason. Take the sin of alcoholism - the alcoholic can become a believer, renounce booze and stay dry, but the temptation to drink remains. Proverbs 24:16 tells us that even the righteous man falls seven times a day, but gets back up.
(Here, perhaps, is where our discussion on purgatory would come in to play. Purgatory being an intermediate state for the saved to be purged from the temporal effects of sin. A spiritual mud-room for Heaven if you will
)You say you don’t post to show you’re knowledge of the Bible or history or anything else? You don’t post to share a knowledge of Christ in an effort to help your brothers or sisters in Christ? Come on now - you know you do. Though I don’t think it’s in anyway out of sinful pride. Though, I would say that posting with some support out of scripture, history, and magesterial teaching (if you believed in such a thing - which I don’t suppose you do), really solidifies one’s thesis and doesn’t (or at least shouldn’t) signal intellectual arrogance.
Again - I don’t deny that salvation is a gift from God, but don’t you agree that we have to actually accept it? Accepting salvation involves doing things - things like believing in God, the Trinity, accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and saviour if you will, baptism, confessing your sins, forgiving those who sin against you, loving God - those are all works. Which one of those does God or you say aren’t necessary? In fact, Jesus commands us to “be perfect, just as our heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48. In the following verse, 6:1, Jesus states that righteous acts when performed humbly allow us recompense before our Heavenly Father. Furthermore, James 2:24 tells us in dramatic fashion that faith without works is dead. It’s no wonder that the man who popularized Sola Fide, Luther, wanted to remove James from the bible, calling it “an epistle of straw”.
You state “You will never be good enough for God”. That’s pretty depressing…
So I submit to you - salvation is a gift given by God through the sacrifice of his Son on calvary, is made available through grace alone, and is recieved by us through faith working in love. Now to finally throw the ball back in your court - Philippians 2:12 from the KJV with my bolds for emphasis:
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
What do you do with that verse
?
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DrumminFool91
Guest
Quite frankly, this notion isn’t supported by historical Christian teaching or sacred scripture. I demonstrated to you where Jesus Christ Himself describes the final judgment as a separation between the sheep and goats based upon how they acted. Yet that really isn’t dealt with in your last response.
I suppose it would be more productive for our conversation to ask you on what basis is a person saved? Who is saved? Who isn’t?
Can I understand salvation outside of righteousness? Yes and no. In as much as salvation is a gift from God, through the perfect sacrifice of His Son, which we could do nothing to deserve – the yes, of course. But in as much that it is not a process which must be worked out in one’s life with fear and trembling, and of course, with the grace of God. I offered a lot of thoughts on the Sola Fide issue in a previous post responding to Dennis so I’m not going to re-write a bunch of stuff, nor will I make you re-read a bunch of my boring writing . In short, the Bible, along with the consistent, historical Christian witness and two thousand years of Church teaching, paints a very clear picture that in order to be saved, one must do certain things like love God and your neighbor, obey God’s commandments, etc… and not doing certain things really puts one’s salvation in question.
Your thesis boils down to (at least as I understand it – please correct me if I’m wrong) this –
*One, once saved, can only sin in the flesh, not in the soul; therefore, all punishment for sin is done by the time of death. Since the soul cannot sin, as Jesus paid the price for us, the soul goes to Heaven. The resurrection issue is sidestepped based on getting a different “spiritual” body. *
This borders on Gnosticism – the physical is bad and the spiritual is good. You can only sin in the body, the body dies and goes away, and then you’re in the spiritual, where it’s all good. The resurrection grants us a glorified body, but it is still the same body. Christ has the same body (it still has the wounds of crucifixion), but it is glorified.
You also state that the fear of Hell is only for those young in the faith. Spiritually advanced people aren’t scared of such things. I agree in that the highest, most mature position is to act simply out of love of God. Yet that shouldn’t minimize the absolute truth of Hell. It exists. People really do go there. You should not want to go there. Now, yes, of course we really need to have a healthy attitude about this – not constantly living in fear. But it does no service to truth to minimize the reality of sin, and its consequences which are very real and may in some cases be eternal.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
**YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME!!!Pretty arrogant statement saying you are Jesus Christ. I think Jim Jones and David Keresh made the same statement! People like you or why I get so turned off by orginized religion. Jessica J ha dme right there believing Catholics were different, but you sir, show the same arrogence as the scribs and pharasees. Better read Matthew 23 what Jesus said about people like that!
I NEVER professed to be Christ and it is people like you who start trouble in the first place, let alone INTERPRETING EVERYTHING WRONG!!**There is something wrong with your ridiculous troublesome posts sir. What I SIMPLY said was that it is Jesus Christ who in Scripture said what St. Paul was stating in the Scriptural evidence of Purgatory I have given you. If you have a problem with them, then TAKE IT UP WITH YOUR MASTER…geez…
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racing59
Guest
Better re-read your post . What I have a problem with you is you are saying what I believe for me! You don’t know whether I believe in purgatory or not so you must think your Jesus, if you can read my mine!!! Give me a brake, I came to learn about the Catholic Faith, but people like you are to busey atacking Christians like me. Thats why so many Wars in the name of Religion. I think you better read, think about it ,then post.People like you are why I don’t like organized religion.Always telling others what they believe, you most be a mind reader or some thing. You are something else!!!**YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME!!!
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
You don’t even care about the Catholic faith. You are causing trouble. So many denominations because people like yourself don’t want to hear the truth. You keep saying “I came to learn about the Catholic faith”, yet YOU are the one attacking me because you don’t like my answers. If you REALLY wanted to learn, you’d take another approach. How old are you anyway? You act very immature.Better re-read your post . What I have a problem with you is you are saying what I believe for me! You don’t know whether I believe in purgatory or not so you must think your Jesus, if you can read my mine!!! Give me a brake, I came to learn about the Catholic Faith, but people like you are to busey atacking Christians like me. Thats why so many Wars in the name of Religion. I think you better read, think about it ,then post.People like you are why I don’t like organized religion.Always telling others what they believe, you most be a mind reader or some thing. You are something else!!!
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racing59
Guest
You are the pot calling the kettle black.What is Truth? We is your evidince? You don’t even know whether Eden was real or a myth. Tell me about the “Tree of Life”, were the great Abyss was believe to be by the ancients, it in the Bible? You probably think Adam and Eve ate an apple. Do you know were Mrs. Cain came from? I can go on and on all day buddy! I didn’t come here to start trouble, but you sir have brought out the worst in me. Don’t tell me you have all the truth unless you can answer every question I have. Truth is in the eye of the beholder. I believe the greatest sin a man can commit is to think he knows it all!!!
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look3467
Guest
DrumminFool91
Your quote on post#45 had no author where by I could respond to.
But as I read it, I found it to be my quote.
So, I’ll respond to it now.
If you can understand the creation story and the condition that mankind was placed in, you will see this part of that verse: “death reigned by one” and if you can understand why Jesus came, you will see the second part of that verse: “they which recieve …the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one”.
The one, first Adam: death reigned.
The second, Adam: Life was gifted.
Between those two, death reigned, but after the second, life reigns because the price was paid for at the cross.
Now as for your verse: Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
What you can not see is the reference to goats, who is it talking about?
REV 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Here God is painting His face. The face heaven and earth flee from: Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
The face is created by the coming together of certain events.
The hair is the Jewish rulers, drawn from the Son 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves’ eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
“As like” is a reference, a similitude of who the goats are. The hair white like wool is because Jesus is likened (similitude) to a worm inJob 25:6 and as a worm, consumes the wool, or consumes the goats into the body of Christ, the body of Christ is born at the cross, seen in Psalm 2:6/7
So, if one can see to understand the similitude’s that are given, one can clearly see a different picture than the one commonly understood as the judgment seat of Christ judging the good and the evil for eternal punishment.
One important thought that you should ponder on, and that is that Jesus had to “consume” all things in order to render all things new.
That consuming includes both the just and the unjust alike, otherwise, forgiveness can not be understood.
For the purposes of your understanding, your present view is sufficient.
There are however, deeper secrets imbedded in the similitude’s yet to be understood.
That comes only by studying the bible with an open mind, clear from all traditions and or dogmas, and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you.
Basic foundation is founded in Jesus Christ, which can not be moved, and from there are all other views.
Blessing’s AJ
Your quote on post#45 had no author where by I could respond to.
But as I read it, I found it to be my quote.
So, I’ll respond to it now.
Support ref: Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
If you can understand the creation story and the condition that mankind was placed in, you will see this part of that verse: “death reigned by one” and if you can understand why Jesus came, you will see the second part of that verse: “they which recieve …the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one”.
The one, first Adam: death reigned.
The second, Adam: Life was gifted.
Between those two, death reigned, but after the second, life reigns because the price was paid for at the cross.
Now as for your verse: Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
What you can not see is the reference to goats, who is it talking about?
REV 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Here God is painting His face. The face heaven and earth flee from: Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
The face is created by the coming together of certain events.
The hair is the Jewish rulers, drawn from the Son 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves’ eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
“As like” is a reference, a similitude of who the goats are. The hair white like wool is because Jesus is likened (similitude) to a worm inJob 25:6 and as a worm, consumes the wool, or consumes the goats into the body of Christ, the body of Christ is born at the cross, seen in Psalm 2:6/7
So, if one can see to understand the similitude’s that are given, one can clearly see a different picture than the one commonly understood as the judgment seat of Christ judging the good and the evil for eternal punishment.
One important thought that you should ponder on, and that is that Jesus had to “consume” all things in order to render all things new.
That consuming includes both the just and the unjust alike, otherwise, forgiveness can not be understood.
For the purposes of your understanding, your present view is sufficient.
There are however, deeper secrets imbedded in the similitude’s yet to be understood.
That comes only by studying the bible with an open mind, clear from all traditions and or dogmas, and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you.
Basic foundation is founded in Jesus Christ, which can not be moved, and from there are all other views.
Blessing’s AJ
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Good grief…You are the pot calling the kettle black.What is Truth? We is your evidince? You don’t even know whether Eden was real or a myth. Tell me about the “Tree of Life”, were the great Abyss was believe to be by the ancients, it in the Bible? You probably think Adam and Eve ate an apple. Do you know were Mrs. Cain came from? I can go on and on all day buddy! I didn’t come here to start trouble, but you sir have brought out the worst in me. Don’t tell me you have all the truth unless you can answer every question I have. Truth is in the eye of the beholder. I believe the greatest sin a man can commit is to think he knows it all!!!
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racing59
Guest
Right back at you!Good grief…
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look3467
Guest
A person who can allow others to have their own opinions without discrediting them has the greatest gift of understanding.
That same individual can present his or her views in such a way (respectfully) that allows for civil discourse.
God does just that! He allows us to be whatever we want to be as it is the deigned feature He instilled in us.
Because God knows the power of the flesh, He gave us some safe guards against such a power, and if we were to take those guards and apply them to our lives, we should be the most blessed.
God never intended to be all one way, since it would only be robot like to be only one way.
However, not to be misunderstood, by using the words “one way”, yes, there is but one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ.
The fact is, that not all believe Jesus, therefore, a diversity.
But within that diversity lies the secret of God, and that is love.
To love one another despite our differing views is to be like God who without respect to persons loves us so.
Without the test of this world, you and I would amount to absolutely nothing in value to where God would even consider us.
Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Your value to God is to live in this world in victory. To show forth His wonderful character amongst the evil that is in this world.
You would be smelling and looking like a rose amidst the spinney thorny stem, that props you up above it.
Without that thorny stem, the rose could not be displayed.
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Lets us be respectful, polite and forgiving without compromising our values, our principles, and guarding against anything said against us that would tarnish what and who God is.
Blessing’s, AJ
That same individual can present his or her views in such a way (respectfully) that allows for civil discourse.
God does just that! He allows us to be whatever we want to be as it is the deigned feature He instilled in us.
Because God knows the power of the flesh, He gave us some safe guards against such a power, and if we were to take those guards and apply them to our lives, we should be the most blessed.
God never intended to be all one way, since it would only be robot like to be only one way.
However, not to be misunderstood, by using the words “one way”, yes, there is but one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ.
The fact is, that not all believe Jesus, therefore, a diversity.
But within that diversity lies the secret of God, and that is love.
To love one another despite our differing views is to be like God who without respect to persons loves us so.
Without the test of this world, you and I would amount to absolutely nothing in value to where God would even consider us.
Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Your value to God is to live in this world in victory. To show forth His wonderful character amongst the evil that is in this world.
You would be smelling and looking like a rose amidst the spinney thorny stem, that props you up above it.
Without that thorny stem, the rose could not be displayed.
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Lets us be respectful, polite and forgiving without compromising our values, our principles, and guarding against anything said against us that would tarnish what and who God is.
Blessing’s, AJ
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
**Matthew 5:22:
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment, whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says “you fool!, shall be liable to the Hell of fire”.
Protestants, what about this one?**
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment, whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says “you fool!, shall be liable to the Hell of fire”.
Protestants, what about this one?**
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Peter_J
Guest
Indeed. Just glancing over your recent conversation, it doesn’t seem like much credit to either of you.
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racing59
Guest
Forgive me! People get under my skin when they try shoving something down my throat. I just believe we can all learn something from one another. The OP seem to say what all non Catholics believe and thats not true.I have a problem with narrow minded people. It’s not what has been said, it is the way it is presented.
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Peter_J
Guest
Well, I’m not going to try to say on that point, particularly since I haven’t read very many of the posts by OTCA. But generally speaking, it’s pretty easy to go to a Catholic forum and find a bunch of anti-Protestant posts (or, conversely it’s pretty easy to go to a Protestant forum and find a bunch of anti-Catholic posts). But on the other hand, I think there are also a lot of Catholic posters on this forum who speak to/about Protestants in a fair and reasonable way (just as, if I went to a Protestant forum, I would hope to find a good number of Protestant posters who speak to/about Catholics in a fair and reasonable way). It’s just a question of which you want to engage which – and thus encourage.
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reteeks21
Guest
The same could be asked of you.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Absolutely…and of you.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Why don’t you quit whining and try and learn something, because you have insulted not only myself several times, but others. Take the plank out of your own eye.Forgive me! People get under my skin when they try shoving something down my throat. I just believe we can all learn something from one another. The OP seem to say what all non Catholics believe and thats not true.I have a problem with narrow minded people. It’s not what has been said, it is the way it is presented.
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