Protestants Focus on This Life, Catholics on the Next

[guanophore]

but that is Catholic teaching - God’s mercy and grace is for the next life, not this one.

You have a false perception of the Catholic Teaching.

 

[steido01]

I think He wanted both. I agree with @JonNC, they are not mutually exclusive.

Amen. I’ll agree with both you and Jon, as should all Christians.

How many times are we taught that “the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” — that is, here and present on earth? And yet we know it is also to come. In fact, it’s the knowledge of what is to come that frees us to do good in this world, to enjoy the benefits of Creation and to learn to conform our will to Christ’s.

@Nap66, this is an area where orthodox Christians of all stripes can agree. God desires peace for his Creation both now and in eternity.

 

[GEddie]

I was once a Protestant so here goes.

Protestants are not, of course, a unified body. There are significant differences in theology, including the issue of security of salvation. Those who do not believe salvation to be secure would be just as concerned about the next life as the Catholics you have known.

And of course, gratitude for human life and a desire to live it as well as possible is well attested in Scripture, whence the Protestant teachings are derived.

ICXC NIKA

 

[AugustTherese]

In all fairness, that same process that determined “30,000” denominations also determined 240 plus different Catholic ones

You have used this attempted argument before and it falls flat. First of all, the Catholic Church does not have denominations; She has different liturgical rites and traditions that are all in communion with the Catholic Church. Every single one of those ‘240 plus’ are in agreement in all matters on faith and morals, there is no division! For you to try to compare 240 plus liturgical rites that are all united, to 30,000 plus denominations divided on everything from doctrine, to morals, and to liturgical rites, is a caricature and gross misrepresentation.

 

[AugustTherese]

Revelations

You mean the book of Revelation. And, no, the book of Revelation does not say what you propose.

 

[JonNC]

You have used this attempted argument before and it falls flat.

It isn’t an argument. It is a fact. The process determined both those outcomes. If you’re going to use the one, you have to accept the other
Personally, I think both numbers are nonsense.

For you to try to compare 240 plus liturgical rites that are all united, to 30,000 plus denominations divided on everything from doctrine, to morals, and to liturgical rites, is a caricature and gross misrepresentation.

I’m not making the comparison. I think both numbers are a gross misrepresentation

 

[AugustTherese]

It isn’t an argument. It is a fact

So, you ignore everything I just informed you on, gave no rebuttal, and merely said ‘it is a fact’ without any substantiation. That’s not docility, that is just refusing to accept what is.

 

[LutheranScholar]

There was a gentleman from the land of Uz whose name was Job. He had a hard time wrapping his head around the torments he was put through as well and his friends only made things worse. As a Confessional Lutheran Protestant Christian ( say that five times fast), I acknowledge that suffering is not only a part of life, but a necessary part, one that our concupiscence ( inclination to sin) has brought upon us.

The hope comes when we see that Christ suffered all things for us on the Cross https://blogs.lcms.org/2014/a-theology-of-the-cross-in-a-world-of-glory and that He is with us in our own suffering. As far as Satan goes, he already lost his war and because he knows that his rebellion has failed, he wants to drag as many of us as possible off to Hell with him before the Second Coming ( http://biblehub.com/esv/revelation/12.htm). We are called to perseverance in the Faith and we can be assured that " all things work together for good for those who love God" ( Romans 8: 28- 9).

Be of good cheer! God bless you as you seek these answers to some extremely important questions.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

It isn’t an argument. It is a fact

So, you ignore everything I just informed you on, gave no rebuttal, and merely said ‘it is a fact’ without any substantiation. That’s not docility, that is just refusing to accept what is.

Actually, no. I agreed with your analysis of the 240 number. I just think the 30,000 number as equally absurd.

 

[steido01]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who gets peeved when folks refer to the Revelation of John as “Revelations.”

Whenever someone does this, it’s a telltale sign that they do not know much about what they’re saying, and could use some gentle correction.

 

[mcq72]

to compare 240 plus liturgical rites that are all united, to 30,000 plus denominations divided on everything from doctrine, to morals, and to liturgical rites, is a caricature and gross misrepresentation.

Then your 30,000 is a gross misrepresentation…I mean the same criteria to get the30,000 is same as the 240…so if 240 is wacky so is the other…the ultimate cherry pick…selective reading…etc, etc.

Maybe forget that one study/book, and just say of course Catholics are more unified than P’s (but for sure we do not have 30,000 differences)

 

[steido01]

Speaking of gentle correction, please re-read what Jon has actually said.

The criteria used to number Catholics-in-communion-with-Rome at 240 denominations also paints the churches of the ILC at 30+, the LWF at around 150, the Anglican Communion at 45+, etc. – when the fact is that these various communions function as one within themselves, and merely ‘divided’ by national borders, the legalities of corporate association, taxes and other worldly factors. If you wish to dialogue in faithfulness, you must apply this fact equally to your communion as you do to others.

If your point was rather that there are ‘more’ divisions on the so-called “Protestant” side than the Catholic side, you could attempt to make that point, though it’s a rather silly one to make (tu quoque arguments always are!). Firstly, because it’s not just a “Protestant” problem – after all, as the Orthodox will sometimes gleefully remind Roman Catholics, from where did Protestants come? Secondly, “Protestant” is today a useless term because it defines from the negative. Instead of referring to the actual faiths of those who protested the Holy Roman Empire at the Diet of Speyer, it now means, vaguely, anything not-Roman and mostly-Christian with roots (somewhere) in the Western church. It’s like calling all non-German Shepherd dogs ‘cats’ because they aren’t German Shepherds. Yet even if we accepted the silliness of the term, the ongoing battle under your own roof with regard to Traditionalism, Hyper-Super-Ultra Montanists, Liberation Theologians, Circus Mass, Guitar Mass folks, etc. would seem a bit plank/speck, don’t you think?

 

[Vanny]

Not ALL Protestants hold to those kind of beliefs at all by a long shot.
Classical Reformation mainline Protestants and even the Fundamentalists teach that there will be suffering in this life-even th9ough their theology of suffering is not as detailed as Catholics.
Health and Wealth groups(which are teaching heresy in my opinion) teach that you will receive abundance in this life.
No Lutheran denomination teaches that for sure.

 

[guanophore]

First of all, the Catholic Church does not have denominations; She has different liturgical rites and traditions that are all in communion with the Catholic Church. Every single one of those ‘240 plus’ are in agreement in all matters on faith and morals, there is no division! For you to try to compare 240 plus liturgical rites that are all united, to 30,000 plus denominations divided on everything from doctrine, to morals, and to liturgical rites, is a caricature and gross misrepresentation.

This is not JonNC’s formula, and the point is that the method used to determine the 30.000 is obviously flawed since that same method states there are 240 Catholic denominations, when there is not.

Of course there are far too many divisions in the Church, but all of us have things in common.

What has been grossly misrepresented in this thread is the nature of the Catholic faith as a joyless experience that is not focused on peace and joy in this present life.

 

[JonNC]

What has been grossly misrepresented in this thread is the nature of the Catholic faith as a joyless experience that is not focused on peace and joy in this present life.

This is most certainly true.
But it was better said by a Catholic.

 

[SnoopSword]

We only attain salvation by grace

I agree - for babies/kids. They attain salvation through grace by their baptism. But ‘we’ adults are different. When those kids get older they will eventually have to decide to co-operate with God’s call to salvation throughout their life. They will accept or deny the graces which are given to them for salvation (the Church dispenses these graces).

The Bible does not fall under this category and is not one of these graces that save you. In fact, it has the ability to damn you as St. Peter warns.

Again, that book can’t save you. It can only point you to the Truth IF you are docile enough to allow someone from the True Church explain what the Bible is saying. Recall the Ethiopian Eunuch “how can I [understand the scripture I’m reading] unless someone guides me?”

 

[guanophore]

We only attain salvation by grace

I agree - for babies/kids. They attain salvation through grace by their baptism. But ‘we’ adults are different. When those kids get older they will eventually have to decide to co-operate with God’s call to salvation throughout their life. They will accept or deny the graces which are given to them for salvation (the Church dispenses these graces).

Salvation for adults and children is not different. We are all saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest anyone should boast. Adults have more responsibility, as to those whom much is given, much will be required. But even our cooperation with grace is moved in us by grace.

The Bible does not fall under this category and is not one of these graces that save you.

No one here has claimed that the bible saves anyone.

I don’t know how you came to be so hostile toward your Protestant siblings in Christ, but you are bringing a lot of complaints into this thread that have nothing to do with the topic, which makes it appear that you have some kind of axe to grind.

 

[AugustTherese]

Actually, no. I agreed with your analysis of the 240 number. I just think the 30,000 number as equally absurd.

Then your 30,000 is a gross misrepresentation

My bad. Is 40,000 more accurate?

If you want to quibble over technicalities, that’s your affair. Honestly, can anyone accurately survey the actual number of Protestant denominations considering all the non-denominational and mega-churches out there that are multiplying by the day?! The fact remains that there are tens of thousands of Protestant ecclesial communities; what difference does it make if it is 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 etc.?

 

[AugustTherese]

Of course there are far too many divisions in the Church, but all of us have things in common.

The Catholic Church is not divided. Hence the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[JonNC]

I agree - for babies/kids. They attain salvation through grace by their baptism. But ‘we’ adults are different. When those kids get older they will eventually have to decide to co-operate with God’s call to salvation throughout their life. They will accept or deny the graces which are given to them for salvation (the Church dispenses these graces).

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Grace applies every bit to me now as it did at my baptism.