Protestants Focus on This Life, Catholics on the Next

[JonNC]

My bad. Is 40,000 more accurate?

If you want to quibble over technicalities, that’s your affair. Honestly, can anyone accurately survey the actual number of Protestant denominations considering all the non-denominational and mega-churches out there that are multiplying by the day?! The fact remains that there are tens of thousands of Protestant ecclesial communities; what difference does it make if it is 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 etc.?

Could it be perhaps that it is Protestants who are oversensitive? I mean, in all fairness, there are literally over 30,000 Protestant denominations; more often than not, when a Catholic uses the term ‘Protestants’, it is not to denigrate individualized confessions/beliefs that separates one Protestant from another, but for the sake of ease of a generalized argument.

You seem confused about what it means to denigrate.

Okay. Let’s make it fair: let’s always use the number 30,240.

 

[jericho777]

OP I agree with your observation. I think it’s the approach to the problem that’s the difference. Protestants take an over comers view to life’s troubles. We fight from victory to victory. And as you said Catholics feel you never suffer enough. In Psalm 23 it shows the over comers life of victory in Christ. We have a table spread for us before our enemies! That’s God’s provision for us.

 

[Reuben_J]

What has been grossly misrepresented in this thread is the nature of the Catholic faith as a joyless experience that is not focused on peace and joy in this present life.

Agreed. I could not enter into the discussion because the premise used was false. Joyless? Not focused on peace and joy? There are million of Catholics who can testify how joyful and peaceful their lives are as a result of knowing the Lord in the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

Then your 30,000 is a gross misrepresentation

My bad. Is 40,000 more accurate?

If you want to quibble over technicalities, that’s your affair. Honestly, can anyone accurately survey the actual number of Protestant denominations considering all the non-denominational and mega-churches out there that are multiplying by the day?!

Actually, it is you that is quibbling over technicalities. The thread is about whether there are differences in the focus of the Christian life between protestant and catholic. Are you willing to address the thread topic?

Honestly, can anyone accurately survey the actual number of Protestant denominations considering all the non-denominational and mega-churches out there that are multiplying by the day?!

No, but this exercise is irrelevant to the thread topic. The OP obviously has a warped perception of CAtholic teaching. Your posts appear to be an effort to obfuscate that topic.

The Catholic Church is not divided. Hence the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

For some reason you are using this tactic to avoid the thread topic.

You also seem to be invested in denying that your separated brethren are part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

You seem confused about what it means to denigrate.

@AugustTherese seems to be perfectly clear about her perceptions of Catholicism being denigrated. It is just the denigration of the faith of others about which there seems to be confusion. And maybe some confusion about the thread topic?

I could not enter into the discussion because the premise used was false. Joyless? Not focused on peace and joy?

Sadly it seems that the OP has had a very warped and inaccurate experience of the Catholic faith.

 

[SnoopSword]

But even our cooperation with grace is moved in us by grace.

Even for kids/babies?

(CCC:2002 regarding Grace) “God’s free initiative demands man’s free response…God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man” -(NOT the man himself!).

Like God, we too can also move our hearts; we can even believe we are a man after God’s own heart - especially when we play with the (possibly suicidal) ‘sword’ of Scripture. We falsely assign the Bible a NEW ‘role’ in salvation; a tool of ‘proof’ that is used to ‘self-certify’ that ‘God approves’ of us as we are.

A new path for hope and assurance of Salvation. A new path of being in a state of Grace - all thanks to modern electricity allowing affordable books, and also our modern public school system finally solving the problem of illiteracy this past century, allowing almost everyone to read.

But all this is simply the imagination in the beginning stages of creating a phantom meant to override the legitimate initiations of God. Yes, it feels very empowering; even virtuous!

But nothing has changed. ‘Saving graces’ are still dispensed the same as it always has been for 2000 years by the Church. You still need to co-operate and grow in accepting the yoke and burden of Christ.

About 35% of self-professing Christians in America (including ‘former’ cath/prot) don’t believe Baptism saves in any way. This denies the one Christian Baptism of our faith, and thus violates the Creeds of Faith. Sometimes these beliefs are just temporary and in ignorance, for others it’s too late (Mark 16:16).

Many in America, especially in our times, were never part of Jesus sheepfold to begin with. They are simply unbaptized men (without valid ignorance), and thusly not Christian (because in REALITY they do not have and never had a baptized soul).

What they do ‘have’ is an image; a mental construct of their own ‘saved soul’; tailor-designed by himself, to fit himself comfortably. But he really has nothing because its merely a phantom which only exists in the ‘heavenly place’ of his imagination.

 

[JonNC]

The Bible does not fall under this category and is not one of these graces that save you. In fact, it has the ability to damn you as St. Peter warns.

Again, that book can’t save you.

I don’t recall saying it did. Please point it out to me so I can retract it.
What I said was grace saves. There is no other mechanism that saves. Christ’s passion, death and resurrection. "

It can only point you to the Truth IF you are docile enough to allow someone from the True Church explain what the Bible is saying. Recall the Ethiopian Eunuch “how can I [understand the scripture I’m reading] unless someone guides me?”

Even that docility, as you call it, is by grace. The Eunuch did not come to this by himself. He was guided by the Spirit. Christ tells Peter after his confession that God revealed this to him.
We have no power to choose to come to Him. We do have power to reject grace.

1And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, 2Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: 3In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: 4But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) 6And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. 7That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9Not of works, that no man may glory. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2

 

[AugustTherese]

Actually, it is you that is quibbling over technicalities. The thread is about whether there are differences in the focus of the Christian life between protestant and catholic. Are you willing to address the thread topic?

This is what happens when you read one comment out of context and order, and comment solely for the sake of commenting. This is where I would kindly chide you to not butt in if you have not read the entirety of the discourse. I mean that with respect.

You also seem to be invested in denying that your separated brethren are part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Okay, please stop putting words into my mouth. I never once even came close to alluding to that. You said the Church was divided, not me! That has nothing to do with Protestants not being in full communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

Even for kids/babies?

No. You did not read or understand my post.

I do not know what your agenda is here, or why you are so hostile toward your siblings in Christ.

Thats because you deny that baptism saves because babies are born without sin and this Christ is not the savior all men - just people ‘of age’ which is why we have abortion.

You are making inaccurte assumptions about people here, perhaps because you have an agenda that you think supercedes any obligation to listen and have dialogue.

This means your a Pelagian (aka Anabaptist) which is about 35% of self professed Christians in America. I hope God rescues you out of these beliefs,

This is a shameful accusation, and I pray that God will rescue you from any further expressions of this kind.

 

[guanophore]

This is what happens when you read one comment out of context and order, and comment solely for the sake of commenting.

I am looking for a comment related to the thread topic. You are right that I have not found one.

You said the Church was divided, not me!

Yes, I did. There is only one Church. All those who are validly baptized are members of it. The Catechism refers to those who are not in communion with the successor of Peter, and have embraced heresies from the Reformation as “separated brethren”. These members of the Church are in an imperfect state of unity (division).

That has nothing to do with Protestants not being in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Both things are true. Unity is defined by adherence to the truth. To the extent that we are all in unity with Him, we will be in unity with one another.

 

[mcq72]

My bad. Is 40,000 more accurate?

Lol…you are right maybe more, actually every P is a church unto himself even a pope to himself, so I am told.

 

[mcq72]

The fact remains that there are tens of thousands of Protestant ecclesial communities; what difference does it make if it is 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 et

Correct, one division is too much, just as one mishap or bad fruit from ultimate authoritarian power is too much

 

[fhansen]

Protestants are actually all over the board on this; there isn’t a unified and consistent Protestant view on how to live this life. They range from fire & brimstone preachers who’d have us live in servile fear to Prosperity Movement preachers who teach that God wants us all to live continuously happy and healthy lives, and die with lots of money, jewelry, and toys. Catholicism recognizes the simple truth that we’ll all suffer to one degree or another in this life and seeks to use that inevitable suffering for our betterment rather than our victimization. And part of that is to learn that the things of this world simply do not satisfy; like it or not we were made for something better. Aside from that Catholicism teaches that God’s purpose has always been to share in His own beatitude; He’s always wanted nothing less for man than our sheer, unadulterated happiness and bliss.

356 Of all visible creatures only man is “able to know and love his creator”.219 He is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake”,220 and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:

What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good.221

 

[JonNC]

Protestants are actually all over the board on this; there isn’t a unified and consistent Protestant view on how to live this life.

That’s because there is no such thing as a Protestant Church. There are numerous communions that are referred to as Protestant, but they are just that; different communions.

They range from fire & brimstone preachers who’d have us live in servile fear to Prosperity Movement preachers who teach that God wants us all to live continuously happy and healthy lives, and die with lots of money, jewelry, and toys.

You realize that these two are remarkably unrepresentative of the vast majority of western Christians, Catholic or not.

Catholicism recognizes the simple truth that we’ll all suffer to one degree or another in this life and seeks to use that inevitable suffering for our betterment rather than our victimization.

I don’t think the vast majority of of western Christians would disagree with this.

Aside from that Catholicism teaches that God’s purpose has always been to share in His own beatitude; He’s always wanted nothing less for man than our sheer, unadulterated happiness and bliss.

I think many Christians who are not in communion with the pope would agree with this.

 

[JonNC]

Lol…you are right maybe more, actually every P is a church unto himself even a pope to himself, so I am told.

Source. By whom were you told this? What Christian communion teaches this, and how would it apply to all western Christians not in communion with the pope?

 

[fhansen]

That’s because there is no such thing as a Protestant Church. There are numerous communions that are referred to as Protestant, but they are just that; different communions.

Yes, and that’s the point. One cannot use the term “Protestant” to refer to a unified group that holds consistent beliefs. And the inconsistency, BTW, is due mainly to the use of Scripture as ones “rule of faith”.

You realize that these two are remarkably unrepresentative of the vast majority of western Christians, Catholic or not.

The purpose for representing the extremes was to emphasize the point made above.

I don’t think the vast majority of of western Christians would disagree with this.

Probably not, but it’s a commonly understood teaching of the Catholic Church, which becomes the first target when the concept is objected to as the OP did.

I think many Christians who are not in communion with the pope would agree with this.

Yes, but those in communion with the pope can rest assured that this teaching is officially held and correctly expressed by their Church, God’s Church. Catholic teachings understand God’s will more deeply and take it further than Protestantism generally reveals:

1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

1719 The Beatitudes reveal the goal of human existence, the ultimate end of human acts: God calls us to his own beatitude. This vocation is addressed to each individual personally, but also to the Church as a whole, the new people made up of those who have accepted the promise and live from it in faith.

1877 The vocation of humanity is to show forth the image of God and to be transformed into the image of the Father’s only Son. This vocation takes a personal form since each of us is called to enter into the divine beatitude; it also concerns the human community as a whole.

2548 Desire for true happiness frees man from his immoderate attachment to the goods of this world so that he can find his fulfillment in the vision and beatitude of God. "The promise [of seeing God] surpasses all beatitude. . . . In Scripture, to see is to possess. . . . Whoever sees God has obtained all the goods of which he can conceive."

1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it:

We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated.

"How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, for my body draws life from my soul and my soul draws life from you."

"God alone satisfies."

 

[AugustTherese]

That’s because there is no such thing as a Protestant Church. There are numerous communions that are referred to as Protestant, but they are just that; different communions

Does this not seem somewhat wrong to you?

 

[steido01]

Does this not seem somewhat wrong to you?

That people use silly made-up categories to denigrate their siblings in Christ? Absolutely, it does.

 

[AugustTherese]

That people use silly made-up categories to denigrate their siblings in Christ?

What ‘silly made-up categories’?

 

[JonNC]

Yes, and that’s the point. One cannot use the term “Protestant” to refer to a unified group that holds consistent beliefs. And the inconsistency, BTW, is due mainly to the use of Scripture as ones “rule of faith”.

That’s true. And one never could, because they were never the same movement, going back to the Reformation era. It makes no sense to expect them to.

The purpose for representing the extremes was to emphasize the point made above.

Then it is obvious that Catholics are somewhere on that scale, too.

Probably not, but it’s a commonly understood teaching of the Catholic Church, which becomes the first target when the concept is objected to as the OP did.

That’s a generalization begging for evidence. I’ve been here a long time, and I’ve rarely seen it to be a target.

Yes, but those in communion with the pope can rest assured that this teaching is officially held and correctly expressed by their Church, God’s Church. Catholic teachings understand God’s will more deeply and take it further than Protestantism generally reveals:

Why would you think I am not similarly assured?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

That’s because there is no such thing as a Protestant Church. There are numerous communions that are referred to as Protestant, but they are just that; different communions

Does this not seem somewhat wrong to you?

Of course. I think there’s something wrong with all division within His Church