Protestants Focus on This Life, Catholics on the Next

[AugustTherese]

Of course. I think there’s something wrong with all division within His Church

“Is Christ divided?” 1 Corinthians 1:13

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Of course. I think there’s something wrong with all division within His Church

“Is Christ divided?” 1 Corinthians 1:13

No. …

 

[AugustTherese]

AugustTherese:

JonNC:

Of course. I think there’s something wrong with all division within His Church

“Is Christ divided?” 1 Corinthians 1:13

No. …

Exactly, and neither is His One Church. If individuals on their own account fall away from the unity of that One Church, that does not divide Her, She only loses baptized members to schism, heresy, and apostasy; however, She remains united and One forever!

To suggest that Christ’s Church is divided, simply means that Our Lord was a liar when he said the gates of hell would not prevail.

 

[fhansen]

Then it is obvious that Catholics are somewhere on that scale, too.

Apples & oranges. I’m not comparing individuals, but the official teachings of churches, groups, communions, denominations.

That’s a generalization begging for evidence. I’ve been here a long time, and I’ve rarely seen it to be a target.

Target or focus, depending on whether the teachings are objectionable or not. The point is that it’s well known that Catholicism embraces suffering as a potentially positive force for building discipline , character, virtue, etc. while our natural tendency is to hate and avoid suffering, a tendency that some Protestant churches, especially more modern ones, seem to support while others do not.

Why would you think I am not similarly assured?

As a Lutheran you would be more fully assured than many other Protestants I’m sure, but I still don’t know how central such teachings are with your Church. Just reading those catechism paragraphs that I included alone serve to show, incidentally, that there’s a lot more to Catholic teaching on justification than ‘faith alone’, aside from their primary teaching on God’s desire for our happiness.

Another example, getting back to Protestantism in general, is the over-emphasis on God’s wrath that we hear from many Protestants and of our own unworthiness, as if eternal life was nothing but the salvation of some scum He’d really rather not bother with instead of our being the focus of His sheer unbridled love and desire for communion with. While Catholics recognize our need and purpose to glorify God even the Sola: Soli Deo Gloria, misses the mark to the extent that it fails to recognize just how much God seeks to glorify us.

 

[AugustTherese]

is the over-emphasis on God’s wrath that we hear from many Protestants and of our own unworthiness, as if eternal life was nothing but the salvation of some scum He’d really rather not bother with instead of our being the focus of His sheer unbridled love and desire for communion with.

Hence beating people over the head with their beliefs and confessions, viz. proselytism.

 

[JonNC]

Exactly, and neither is His One Church. If individuals on their own account fall away from the unity of that One Church, that does not divide Her, She only loses baptized members to schism, heresy, and apostasy; however, She remains united and One forever!

In Him, but sadly not His followers, as I’ve said. His Church is not only and exclusively found in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[AugustTherese]

In Him, but sadly not His followers

His followers are in Him. The Church is His followers. The Head unites the Body and they are One in faith and morals.

Your comment seems to separate the Head from the Body; such as, the Head is One, but the Body (His followers) are not, as if they were divided.

Just as the Father and the Son are One, so is Christ and His Church (His followers) are.

His Church is not only and exclusively found in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I do not necessarily disagree with this. I believe Christ is present to Christians in many different ways. But, Christ founded the Roman Catholic Church; not the Orthodox, or any Protestant denomination. I do not mean to be ‘triumphalistic’ as you’ve suggested in the past, but it’s just plain historical fact. Can you suggest someone else that founded the RCC?

 

[Athanasiy]

I used to think aloud about this topic and philosophized, and compared the Protestant and Catholic experience.
English is one of the languages I know, so my English may not always be correct, but the thoughts are presented thoughtfully.

 

[JonNC]

Apples & oranges. I’m not comparing individuals, but the official teachings of churches, groups, communions, denominations.

Let me rephrase: the Catholic Church is also on that continuum.

The point is that it’s well known that Catholicism embraces suffering as a potentially positive force for building discipline , character, virtue, etc. while our natural tendency is to hate and avoid suffering, a tendency that some Protestant churches, especially more modern ones, seem tosupport while others do not.

I think it is far less known than you believe. Most western Christians not in communion with the Pope have little knowledge or interest in what Catholicism teaches.
That said, your qualifiers “some” and “others” sufficiently narrows the statement.

Another example, getting back to Protestantism in general, is the over-emphasis on God’s wrath that we hear from many Protestants and of our own unworthiness,

Again, a generalization that doesn’t reflect the reality of many.

 

[JonNC]

His followers are in Him. The Church is His followers. The Head unites the Body and they are One in faith and morals.

Here we agree, a remnant if your Lutheran past perhaps?

Your comment seems to separate the Head from the Body; such as, the Head is One, but the Body (His followers) are not, as if they were divided.

Not at all it just recognizes our sinful condition

Just as the Father and the Son are One, so is Christ and His Church (His followers) are.

Amen.

 

[mcq72]

Source. By whom were you told this? What Christian communion teaches this, and how would it apply to all western Christians not in communion with the pope?

Nothing serious here…half jest…go with the flow of our critics…probably heard it from a zealous poster…did Luther write everyman his own priest?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Source. By whom were you told this? What Christian communion teaches this, and how would it apply to all western Christians not in communion with the pope?

Nothing serious here…half jest…go with the flow of our critics…probably heard it from a zealous poster…did Luther write everyman his own priest?

Lurkers need to know it is half-jest.
Ignore the zealous.
Luther was a defender of the ordained priesthood.

 

[mcq72]

Well I did start out out with “lol”, and that may have been my way of deflecting zealous posts…but thank you Jon…good advice…and am encouraged when i see others show restraint, even ignore over the top comments/posts, which I think are rare thankfully.

And yes Luther did defend the proper role of the priesthood.

 

[ATraveller]

I don’t have anything else that’s different from what other members already mentioned.
I will reiterate that generalising Protestantism is not useful. It’s only helpful for matters relating to Papal authority, Sacred Tradition, intercession of the saints and justification, that’s pretty much it.

 

[guanophore]

I do not necessarily disagree with this. I believe Christ is present to Christians in many different ways. But, Christ founded the Roman Catholic Church; not the Orthodox, or any Protestant denomination. I do not mean to be ‘triumphalistic’ as you’ve suggested in the past, but it’s just plain historical fact. Can you suggest someone else that founded the RCC?

Such a statement seems to lack a knowledge of the history of the Church. What Christ founded was a Church built upon the Apostles and prophets, all of whom were Palestinian (not “Roman”).

The line of Bishops that emanates from Peter first in Antioch of Syria is older than the line established in Rome.

There was no division with the Roman (Latin) Catholics and the Eastern (Greek) Catholics for a thousand years. If the Orthodox could not trace their own bishops back to the Apostles they would not be considered to have valid holy orders and succession. But since they do, the CC accepts the sacraments as valid.

The witness of history is that Peter and Paul founded the Church in Rome, not Jesus.

 

[JonNC]

**Well I did start out out with “lol”, and that may have been my way of deflecting zealous posts…**but thank you Jon…good advice…and am encouraged when i see others show restraint, even ignore over the top comments/posts, which I think are rare thankfully.

And yes Luther did defend the proper role of the priesthood.

Yes you did, and perhaps I should have been more observant about that.
Thanks for the kind words.

 

[AugustTherese]

Such a statement seems to lack a knowledge of the history of the Church. What Christ founded was a Church built upon the Apostles and prophets, all of whom were Palestinian (not “Roman”).

I said Roman Catholic Church for @JonNC as he is Anglican; as many Protestants believe they are in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Also, many Saints and Coucils refer to the Catholic Church as the Roman Church.

 

[JonNC]

A lot of Protestant theology–most, perhaps–is about once-saved-always-saved.

News to me. OSAS is a derivative of Calvin’s perseverance of saints. It isn’t accept by Lutherans, most Anglicans, Methodists IIRC, and many others

So the hard work has been done. Catholicism is more humbling; we are called to remain vigilant on our journey to salvation and avoid severing our relationship with God.

The hard work was done on the cross. Receiving His grace and caring for those around us should be joyful.

That said, I’m not sure if your observation always holds true. Protestants have been at the forefront of Puritanism. Catholics have a long, joyful history of beer, wine, and opera.

Puritanism is also a narrow view, not typical of most “Protestants”, certainly not among Lutherans. . Or Anglicans.

 

[ATraveller]

OSAS

Even many Calvinists reject OSAS.

Puritanism

Puritans loved their beer too. I don’t know why people keep confusing Puritans with Methodists and the Holiness Movement it gave rise to.

 

[JonNC]

Even many Calvinists reject OSAS.

I agree. That’s why I said it is a derivative.