Protestants go to heaven, Catholics go to hell?

[ATraveller]

I personally think God cares more about what is in your heart.

He does. After all, faith brings forth good works.

For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” -1 Sa 16:7

With my whole heart I seek you [God]; let me not wander from your commandments! -Ps 119:10

Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ -Mk 12:29-30

And he [Jesus] said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. -Lk 16:15

 

[ATraveller]

The Protestant can decide what is moral and what is not.

Not necessarily true. It has to go through the Bible since it’s the highest authority for Protestants.

And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. -2Pe 1:19-21

This is from a prominent Protestant ministry in the US (emphasis mine):

There is a place for other authorities over us in the church that are under the authority of God’s speaking in His Word.
[…]
We are not to be Lone Ranger Christians who go off by ourselves with our Bibles to figure out what God said, although personal Bible study is certainly a good thing. No, we read God’s Word with the church, looking to one another and to appointed teachers and ministers to help us interpret Scripture correctly. We need God’s people to help us know God’s Word.
Interpreting Scripture With the Church | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

 

[ATraveller]

This is not true for all Protestants. There are rules. I completely understand how the horrible slogans from many ‘non-denominational’ pastors give the wrong impressions and even mislead some Protestants. If we are to be Bible-believing Christians, then we must acknowledge these passages:

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? […] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. -Ro 6:1-2, 12-19

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. -1 Jn 2:2-6

And OSAS isn’t held by all Protestants. Many criticize it. Even those who accept the terrible slogan don’t interpret it to mean you can do whatever you please. This is a reason why many Protestants can still be allies with the Catholic Church on many things. If OSAS meant do whatever you please, then it would mean we don’t believe in the Bible and most Protestant churches would be dens of sin and promote sin but most aren’t.

 

[thistle]

Some time ago a Protestant friend told me he would go to heaven because he had accepted Jesus, who redeemed him and died for him and will save him. His spouse married him for better or for worse and will stick by him, so will God.

The problem is that Protestants don’t understand the difference between Redemption and Salvation. They view them as the same thing which of course they are not.
Christ did redeem everyone on the Cross and gave us all the opportunity to be saved if we cooperate with him.

 

[Nita]

…Freedom of conscience is rarely taught, and when it is it is often modified by ‘rightly formed’.

The problem arises because people misunderstand what a conscience is. A conscience has to be formed before one can “follow it”!!! It is formed by learning and accepting the moral commandments and related teachings of Jesus and the Church He established. He must learn which acts God has established as good and which are evil. Once this knowledge is present and accepted in his soul/mind/intellect, he has a formed conscience Now he is equipped to “follow his conscience”; that is, to begin making judgments about whether a specific act is in conformity with his formed conscience – that is, in CONFORMITY with what God has established as good and evil

Is a Catholic free in conscience not to go to Mass on Sundays, or to approve of contraception?

Not if his conscience is a well formed one - because his conscience tells him those acts are contrary to God’s laws.
Of course he is still free to sin; to reject the guidance of his conscience.

…
However, the issue about very many Catholics going to hell was not addressed. Will a huge number of Catholics go to hell for sexual sins against Catholic teaching and the rejection of Church authority and rules?

If they knew the Church taught the particular act was a mortal sin for someone in their circumstances (in other words, no mitigating circumstances existed), willed to commit that act anyway, committed that act, and refuse to repent and no intention of ever confessing it – THEN Church teaching “objectively” says such a person is in the state of mortal sin, and if they die in that state they will go to hell. Please note the “objectively”, for no human can judge the personal guilt of another’s soul. ONLY God can do that.

 

[Nita]

Catholics are not “slaves of Christ”. Following Christ is a choice, and a joy. …

We’re not forced to be, but we can choose to be “slaves of Christ”.
Is that what you meant by “Following Christ is a choice, and a joy”?

 

[NoelFitz]

Once this knowledge is present and accepted in his soul/mind/intellect, he has a formed conscience Now he is equipped to “follow his conscience”

Nita,

I am grateful for your contributions and those of others, but I disagree with you.
One is bound to follow conscience even if the action approved by conscience is wrong. This is the teaching of the Church and Thomas Aquinas.

Aquinas therefore believes that not only is one excused from wrongdoing if one’s conscience is in error, one also is bound to do the wrong thing if one’s conscience tells one that it is the RIGHT thing to do. He also believes that one has a duty to have a well-formed conscience, one that knows what the right thing to do is. http://www.aquinasonline.com/Questions/conscience.htm

 

[Nita]

Nita:

Once this knowledge is present and accepted in his soul/mind/intellect, he has a formed conscience Now he is equipped to “follow his conscience”

Nita,

I am grateful for your contributions and those of others, but I disagree with you.
One is bound to follow conscience even if the action approved by conscience is wrong. This is the teaching of the Church and Thomas Aquinas.

Aquinas therefore believes that not only is one excused from wrongdoing if one’s conscience is in error, one also is bound to do the wrong thing if one’s conscience tells one that it is the RIGHT thing to do. He also believes that one has a duty to have a well-formed conscience, one that knows what the right thing to do is. http://www.aquinasonline.com/Questions/conscience.htm

Of course, we must follow our conscience. Our conscience calls us to do what is good and avoid what is evil. To do that we have to learn what truly is good and what truly is evil so we can follow our conscience correctly. It is God who determines what is good and evil. Too many people think following their conscience means using their reasoning and thinking to determine what is good and what is evil and then following the “laws” they have determined.

My post was about how to form a conscience and about Catholics with formed consciences – where there are no mitigating circumstances. (There can be a lot of mitigating circumstances, but that’s another topic. I can imagine many cases where someone’s conscience could be in error due to no fault of theirs.) Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough in my post.

 

[margaret42]

do you think protestants might be confused by the frequent references in scripture, when Jesus says, “your faith has saved you”?

 

[Nita]

What i meant, it does sound confusing, is that the word “slave” sounds that Jesus is treating us derogatorily. Isn’t there a passage in the gospel that says, “I know longer call you slaves, but friends”?

Yes. John 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

 

[NoelFitz]

Nita et al.
we have wandered from the original thrust of this thread.

As far as conscience is concerned I consider one must follow one’s conscience whether it is right or wrong. But also, and separately, we are bound to get an informed conscience.
Topics such as faith, slavery, sanctification, pornography, redemption, etc. could best be studied in other threads.
I would like an answer to whether one act of the following would condemn one to hell for all eternity, if not confessed, or forgiven by perfect contrition: bad thoughts, sex outside a valid Catholic marriage, missing mass on Sundays, viewing pornography, contraception or masturbation.

 

[margaret42]

But if "slaves to Christ " is Christian expression, then amen!

 

[Nita]

…
I would like an answer to whether one act of the following would condemn one to hell for all eternity, if not confessed, or forgiven by perfect contrition: bad thoughts, sex outside a valid Catholic marriage, missing mass on Sundays, viewing pornography, contraception or masturbation.

I think Noel, that’s been answered. Only God can judge the soul, judge whether a person is actually in the state of mortal sin and condemn to hell.

We’ve given the conditions that our Church teaches must be present to place one’s soul in the state of mortal sin, so I’m not sure what you are asking.

1. Are you asking if it’s possible for only one mortally sinful act to cause one to go to hell? If so, the answer is “yes”.
2. Or, are you asking if “bad thoughts, sex outside a valid Catholic marriage, missing mass on Sundays, viewing pornography, contraception or masturbation” are mortal sins in Catholic teaching? If so, they (except for bad thoughts - too vague) are serious/grave sins which can be mortal to the soul if they fulfill all the necessary conditions for a sin to be mortal to the soul (which means there would be no mitigating conditions present). And then, as noted above, it would only take one of those acts to put one’s soul in the state of mortal sin.

I don’t know if you’re Catholic Noel. If not, perhaps you’re not aware of what sanctifying grace is in Catholic teaching. You almost have to understand that to understand what being in the state of mortal sin means.

 

[NoelFitz]

Nita,
many thanks.
I find it difficult to understand how a loving God could condemn a person to hell for all eternity for e.g. looking at pornography, especially as God made us all with weaknesses.
But again God’s ways are not our ways and we cannot understand the mind of God.

 

[sudy]

Would one be happy viewing porn if the subject was our mother, our sister, our wife, our daughter? These women are being objectified. This isn’t the way we would treat our family members, this is not love.

We learn right and wrong as we draw closer to God. Our conscience forms as we learn to do God’s will.

 

[Nita]

Again, there could be mitigating circumstances. If it’s a habitual practice, it’s possible for that to be a mitigating circumstance. Eg. a person could have deliberately started watching porn with the conditions present for it to be mortal to his soul. Continued the practice to where it became a habit. Then had a conversion of heart, repented and confessed it, and desires to stop because he doesn’t want to offend God or even just because he doesn’t want to go to hell. However, he’s still left with a habit to break and that doesn’t usually happen overnight! (Altho it can if God grants a special grace.) But, if a person is sorry and confesses (for a Catholic that means in Confession) it is always forgiven.

For one who knows that it’s a grave sin which removes/destroys Our Lord’s supernatural life (sanctifying grace) in his soul , doesn’t care and deliberately keeps doing it anyway, it’s equivalent to telling God you don’t want His life in you – you choose existence without/separated from the presence of His eternal life in you.
That is hell - existence outside/separated from God.

 

[Nita]

Hope everyone knows that if a person is sorry, intends to confess the grave sin at the first opportunity, but dies before he actually gets to Confession, God does forgive the sin.

 

[NoelFitz]

Would one be happy viewing porn if the subject was our mother, our sister, our wife, our daughter? These women are being objectified. This isn’t the way we would treat our family members, this is not love.

Sudy, thanks.
But is hell for all eternity an appropriate punishment for viewing pornography once?
If I found out my son looked at pornography I would not have him punished severely for ever.

 

[sudy]

Mortal sin requires three conditions to be met. God, in His wisdom, is the judge and not us. He knows what’s in one’s heart.

You may or may not punish your son and yet, if the porn was of someone closely related to him and he persevered, you might think he’s blatantly disregarding you when you explain why it’s wrong.

Please excuse me, I have a terrible headache, so, I’m going to bed.

 

[NoelFitz]

Sudy,
many thanks for your reply.
I am sorry to hear you have a headache.
I hope you will get a good night’s rest.