Protestants go to heaven, Catholics go to hell?

[steve-b]

Some time ago a Protestant friend told me he would go to heaven because he had accepted Jesus, who redeemed him and died for him and will save him. His spouse married him for better or for worse and will stick by him, so will God.

But a Catholic will be condemned to hell for all eternity for disobeying God or his Church, in a grievous way, with clear knowledge and full consent. Examples of mortal sins for Catholics include missing Mass, without good reason, on Sunday,

Just taking one of the examples given

Your Protestant friend who probably claims to follow the bible alone, shows by his position, he really doesn’t know the bible nor follow it.

Re: the Mass and deliberately missing Mass on Sunday = Mortal sin.

We need to make a simple qualification. Except for Sickness or valid excuse

Here is what scripture teaches
Heb 10

unpacking that warning

We see that deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, (the Lord’s Day, i.e. Sunday) is already a sin with huge consequences

“sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the Eucharist .
Matthew 26:28 Mark 14:24

i.e. They are celebrating the Eucharist when they meet. Those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,

THEN

◦ there no longer remains for Them, a sacrifice for sin
◦ They Spurn the Son of God
◦ They outrage the spirit of grace
◦ a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
◦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries

That is not a suggestion but a command to meet on Sunday . The consequence for deliberately missing Mass on Sunday then, describes a mortal sin

And it is right from scripture.

 

[NoelFitz]

Re: the Mass and deliberately missing Mass on Sunday = Mortal sin.

We need to make a simple qualification. Except for Sickness or valid excuse

Steve-B
in many parishes only a small proportion of Catholics go to mass on Sundays. Thus you seem to suggest there is a possibility that the majority of Catholics are in the state of mortal sin.
This seems to support ‘Catholics go to hell’.
Claimiming ignoance or ‘lack of clear knowledge’ is claimed not to be an excuse.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Re: the Mass and deliberately missing Mass on Sunday = Mortal sin.

We need to make a simple qualification. Except for Sickness or valid excuse

Steve-B
in many parishes only a small proportion of Catholics go to mass on Sundays. Thus you seem to suggest there is a possibility that the majority of Catholics are in the state of mortal sin.

Yep

And what does that say about all the people on the planet who likewise, don’t do what Jesus commanded

Jn 6:53-57 and the Eucharist
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

That’s one giant conditional statement. IOW, Do this or else. It’s not a suggestion but a command.

We receive the Eucharist at Mass. Go back and meditate on the passages I quoted from Heb 10.

NoelFitz:

This seems to support ‘Catholics go to hell’.

Of course Catholics can go to hell. In fact Georgetown Univ did a survey on this They found 78% of Catholics are at best C & E Catholics (Christmas and Easter) because they go to Mass on 2 days … if at that. If they don’t go to confession first, before receiving the Eucharist on those 2 days, confessing all the Masses they deliberately missed, they heap sacrilege on top of their mortal sin.

That said,

If they go to confession for those Masses they miss, and still have no intention of correcting their behavior, they aren’t forgiven, and they mock the sacrament they partake in.

And

What does this say about all the rest of the people on the planet who don’t partake in the Eucharist. As Jesus said
“Few are saved”

NoelFitz:

Claimiming ignoance or ‘lack of clear knowledge’ is claimed not to be an excuse.

Information has NEVER in history been so easy to access by anybody, than it is today. That’s why I often post from the CCC

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[ajcstr]

Regarding “gravity of the sin”, I thought we were talking about acts that are taught by the Church to be grave/mortal sins, not those that are considered venial.

So then I guess the question here as it relates to the OP, can I commit a mortal sin and my next door neighbor is committing the same sin but its not mortal because he is unaware that it is a sin?

I still take the position that if we believe that the Church is true, then we follow that truth regardless of what others do.

 

[ajcstr]

in many parishes only a small proportion of Catholics go to mass on Sundays. Thus you seem to suggest there is a possibility that the majority of Catholics are in the state of mortal sin.

I always wonder about this one myself. According to the pew research center only 39% of Catholics attend weekly mass and I think that’s generous.

Religious Landscape Study (RLS) | Pew Research Center

The Religious Landscape Study is a comprehensive survey of more than 35,000 Americans’ religious identities, beliefs and practices that’s been conducted in 2007, 2014 and 2023-24. Pew Research Center.

www.pewforum.org

 

[Nita]

Nita:

Regarding “gravity of the sin”, I thought we were talking about acts that are taught by the Church to be grave/mortal sins, not those that are considered venial.

So then I guess the question here as it relates to the OP, can I commit a mortal sin and my next door neighbor is committing the same sin but its not mortal because he is unaware that it is a sin?

Only if his ignorance/unawareness is inculpable. See Steveb’s #107 post, final paragraph giving CCC #1791 which explains when the ignorance is not an excuse. Good to read the few other paragraphs here that pertain to this topic.

 

[Nita]

NoelFitz:

…
in many parishes only a small proportion of Catholics go to mass on Sundays. Thus you seem to suggest there is a possibility that the majority of Catholics are in the state of mortal sin.

Yep
…
And

What does this say about all the rest of the people on the planet who don’t partake in the Eucharist. As Jesus said
"Few are saved"
…

When hell is being discussed, the Luke passage is often quoted to claim that more people go to hell than to heaven. But, please examine Jesus’ words carefully:

Luke 13:23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

First, it’s not Jesus who uses the words about “few” being “saved”; it’s one of those listening to Him.
What Jesus says is that “many” will be unable to enter - NOT most, or even a majority. He gives no percentage! There may well be many, many, many more who will be able to enter.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

NoelFitz:

…
in many parishes only a small proportion of Catholics go to mass on Sundays. Thus you seem to suggest there is a possibility that the majority of Catholics are in the state of mortal sin.

Yep
…
And

What does this say about all the rest of the people on the planet who don’t partake in the Eucharist. As Jesus said
"Few are saved"
…

When hell is being discussed, the Luke passage is often quoted to claim that more people go to hell than to heaven. But, please examine Jesus’ words carefully:

Luke 13:23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

He says “many” will be unable to enter - NOT most, or even a majority. He gives no percentage! There may well be many, many, many more who are able to enter.

When Jesus was asked

" Lord, will those who are saved be few"?

Did Jesus say NO to that direct question? This would be the place where He could have absolutely said No, but He didn’t. He actually validates the question.

It goes back to what He has already said about Few making it to heaven

 

[ajcstr]

What Jesus says is that “many” will be unable to enter - NOT most, or even a majority. He gives no percentage!

I agree, but both sides of the equation have to be considered, He just says the road to heaven is narrow, He does not say one way or the other how many will ultimately choose the narrow path. So it we don’t know if its the majority or the minority.

 

[sudy]

Matthew 7:14 suggests few, too.

 

[steve-b]

Nita:

What Jesus says is that “many” will be unable to enter - NOT most, or even a majority. He gives no percentage!

I agree, but both sides of the equation have to be considered, He just says the road to heaven is narrow, He does not say one way or the other how many will ultimately choose the narrow path. So it we don’t know if its the majority or the minority.

Jesus said it’s few who make it to heaven. Open the last link on that post. When only a few make it to heaven that means most go to hell. Remember, souls in purgatory go to heaven. They are then counted in with the few

 

[ajcstr]

Jesus said it’s few who make it to heaven

Yep - see that, thanks.

 

[Nita]

ajcstr:

Nita:

What Jesus says is that “many” will be unable to enter - NOT most, or even a majority. He gives no percentage!

I agree, but both sides of the equation have to be considered, He just says the road to heaven is narrow, He does not say one way or the other how many will ultimately choose the narrow path. So it we don’t know if its the majority or the minority.

Jesus said it’s few who make it to heaven. Open the last link on that post. When only a few make it to heaven that means most go to hell. Remember, souls in purgatory go to heaven. They are then counted in with the few

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

After reading and pondering the above Matthew passage, here are my thoughts.

First, Jesus does not say that few enter heaven; He says that few enter the narrow gate. It’s the “gates”/“ways” He speaks of people entering – not the final destination (heaven or hell) of those ways.

Next, consider the meaning of the word “enter/entry”. It’s where one begins or starts something. Jesus tells us many enter the wide gate, start the easy way; He doesn’t say whether they persist on it till they die.
(There are some who “enter” the wide gate but later convert and change their ways.)

Jesus says few find the narrow gate. He doesn’t specifically say they “enter” – altho I’m presuming that is what is meant. I consider this passage to refer to the “few” who go straight to heaven after death. They no longer have to walk on the “hard, narrow way”.

I don’t think Jesus addresses the multitude who will have to continue walking the hard narrow way after death – in other words, those who must spend time in Purgatory. Perhaps because there was no developed teaching about it in the Jewish faith.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

ajcstr:

Nita:

What Jesus says is that “many” will be unable to enter - NOT most, or even a majority. He gives no percentage!

I agree, but both sides of the equation have to be considered, He just says the road to heaven is narrow, He does not say one way or the other how many will ultimately choose the narrow path. So it we don’t know if its the majority or the minority.

Jesus said it’s few who make it to heaven. Open the last link on that post. When only a few make it to heaven that means most go to hell. Remember, souls in purgatory go to heaven. They are then counted in with the few

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

After reading and pondering the above Matthew passage, here are my thoughts.

First, Jesus does not say that few enter heaven; He says that few enter the narrow gate. It’s the “gates”/“ways” He speaks of people entering – not the final destination (heaven or hell) of those ways.

Next, consider the meaning of the word “enter/entry”. It’s where one begins or starts something. Jesus tells us many enter the wide gate, start the easy way; He doesn’t say whether they persist on it till they die.
(There are some who “enter” the wide gate but later convert and change their ways.)

Jesus says few find the narrow gate. He doesn’t specifically say they “enter” – altho I’m presuming that is what is meant. I consider this passage to refer to the “few” who go straight to heaven after death. They no longer have to walk on the “hard, narrow way”.

Whether someone goes straight to heaven or Purgatory first, both are saved, ergo both were on the narrow road…

Nita:

I don’t think Jesus addresses the multitude who will have to continue walking the hard narrow way after death – in other words, those who must spend time in Purgatory. Perhaps because there was no developed teaching about it in the Jewish faith.

Purgatory isn’t something we do. It’s what is done to us. It’s the final purification done to us.

 

[Nita]

Whether someone goes straight to heaven or Purgatory first, both are saved, ergo both were on the narrow road…

No, it doesn’t necessarily mean “ergo both were on the narrow road”.
There could be more than just the hard narrow road - roads less rigorous. Entry into heaven after death will not be as immediate on those roads as it will be for the few who enter and walk the hard narrow road. Neither will the rewards be as great, but they will be saved.
steveb:

Purgatory isn’t something we do. It’s what is done to us. It’s the final purification done to us.

Precisely. We don’t find it (hard narrow way - that purifies us) and do it here on earth, so we need to have it done to us after we die.
We, who will go to purgatory, didn’t find and walk the hard narrow way that ends with immediate entry into life/Jesus/heaven after we die. Some do, but as Jesus said, very few. Many don’t even know what that road requires. They reject the wide easy path but walk a less rigorous path. If we were one of the few who walk the hard narrow path, we wouldn’t need to undergo further purification.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Whether someone goes straight to heaven or Purgatory first, both are saved, ergo both were on the narrow road…

No, it doesn’t necessarily mean “ergo both were on the narrow road”.
There could be more than just the hard narrow road - roads less rigorous. Entry into heaven after death will not be as immediate on those roads as it will be for the few who enter and walk the hard narrow road. Neither will the rewards be as great, but they will be saved.

apparently In your book, there are more roads than the 2 roads (wide road, Narrow road) Jesus mentioned.

steve-b:

Purgatory isn’t something we do. It’s what is done to us. It’s the final purification done to us.

Nita:

Precisely. We don’t find it (hard narrow way - that purifies us) and do it here on earth, so we need to have it done to us after we die.

Those who go to purgatory after death by definition died in a state of grace. They were on the narrow road, leading to life, but they needed final purification. THE wide road leads to destruction NOT life, not purification/purgatory. Those who die in mortal sin by definition, DID NOT DIE in a state of grace, and go

to hell. Thus, Wide road, Narrow road

 

[sudy]

There is a little more to consider, Revelation 11:18 ‘rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great’

 

[Nita]

apparently In your book, there are more roads than the 2 roads (wide road, Narrow road) Jesus mentioned.

My disagreement with your position is not about the number of roads, but about how you equate them with our final judgement. You equate where we begin/start/enter on our journey with where we end our journey. Because Jesus says few enter, you say He’s saying few are saved. But He isn’t. Neither is He saying all who enter the gate to the narrow road are saved. Some of them may fall off it and choose not to get back on it. (We do not believe in once saved, always saved. )
And, regarding the wide road, He did not say everyone who enters the wide road will end up damned. Many probably enter the wide gate, not even realizing that’s what they’re doing!
Many of those who entered the wide gate may change - right up to the last second of breath.

It’s easier for me to get my point across if I sort of paint a picture, so to speak. Le’t say the road to hell leads due west & terminates at hell’s door; and the narrow road to heaven heads due east and terminates at heaven’s door.

Many people enter thru the wide gate and begin walking the easy road, their directions varying a little on such a wide road. But as their path becomes more westward, some/many may start to feel uneasy, dissatisfied, (eg prodigal son). So they start changing direction a little; walking more ESE; then SE,… (Degree and quickness of change varying with each individual). They’re no longer following the road to hell, but neither are they on the narrow road heading due east ----“narrow”, which means there’s really no room for deviation in direction if one wants to stay on it!

Some enter the gate to the narrow road and never fall off (Mary); some slip off a little but climb back on it quickly (saints who have attained heroic virtue); they are likely to be on it when they die & would therefore enter heaven immediately.

I think most of the rest who will be saved are those who were heading towards that narrow road but didn’t get fully and solidly on it before death. But because they’ve rejected the other road that terminated at hell’s door and were working to get on the narrow road that terminates at heaven’s door, they’re given another path/way (purgatory) after death that will lead them to the spot where the narrow road joins heaven’s door. This isn’t a path that exists for the living. It’s not a path we can choose, it’s a path we’re put on by God - after we die. Jesus spoke only of the 2 gates/roads we can choose to enter while we’re here on earth. He says nothing about how many remain on those roads till the time of their death.

To conclude, it could well be that a large percentage of those who entered through the wide gate do not persist on that road but change direction before death. And, it’s likely that only a small percentage of the few who entered the narrow gate/road totally leave and go the other direction.
If such is the case - which is what we all pray for - then many will be saved and few will be damned.

 

[NoelFitz]

If such is the case - which is what we all pray for - then many will be saved and few will be damned.

We pray that all may be saved and no one damned.

This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
(1 Tim. 2:3-4 NAB)

This is the will of God, your holiness:
(1 Thess. 4:3a NAB)

 

[Nita]

Oh, yes Noel. Part of my intentions for daily Mass.