Protestants go to heaven, Catholics go to hell?

[steve-b]

steve-b:

apparently In your book, there are more roads than the 2 roads (wide road, Narrow road) Jesus mentioned.

My disagreement with your position is not about the number of roads, but about how you equate them with our final judgement. You equate where we begin/start/enter on our journey with where we end our journey. Because Jesus says few enter, you say He’s saying few are saved. But He isn’t.

Everyone can see what I post. Don’t mischaracterize it. It’s all linked so it’s NOT just my position.

in addition to what I’ve already posted

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth"

1219 The Church has seen in Noah’s ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it “a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water”:

The waters of the great flood
you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,
that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.

According to Jesus, few enter heaven, as in they died on the wide road.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

apparently In your book, there are more roads than the 2 roads (wide road, Narrow road) Jesus mentioned.

My disagreement with your position is not about the number of roads, but about how you equate them with our final judgement. You equate where we begin/start/enter on our journey with where we end our journey. Because Jesus says few enter, you say He’s saying few are saved. But He isn’t.

In addition to my previous post

I’ll add to
1219 The Church has seen in Noah’s ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it “a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water”:

the following regarding sin and absolution of grave (mortal) sin

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

1493 One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience. The confession of venial faults, without being necessary in itself, is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.”

While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession. “

 

[Nita]

1219 The Church has seen in Noah’s ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it “a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water”:

Their are definitely fewer water baptized people that have existed in comparison with the number who have not been baptized. However, the context of that CCC quote is about water being used as an instrument to save, not about the number. The quote is from 1 Peter 3:19-22 and St. Peter uses it for the same reason.

Also, we know from Church teaching that salvation is not necessarily limited to those who have received water Baptism. God can choose to save by other means if He desires.

CCC 1257…God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments._

steve-b
the following regarding sin and absolution of grave (mortal) sin

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

1493 One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience. The confession of venial faults, without being necessary in itself, is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.

These regulations apply only to Catholics - not to non-Catholics who cannot receive the sacrament of Confession (exception is catechumens just before their entry into the Church).

Code of Canon Law:
Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

I agree with every Catechism quote you gave but not your interpretation and/or application of them. It’s probably time for us to just agree to disagree; I think we’re beginning to repeat ourselves.

God bless you, Steve.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thanks for all the contributions, over 125, to this thread and we seem to have a consensus.

Protestants go to heaven as they trust in God, who is all merciful and loving, but Catholics go to hell as even once missing mass on a Sunday, looking at pornography or masturbating, without a proper confession, condemns a Catholic to hell for eternity, claiming ignorance of the law, lack of clear knowledge, is no excise.

But as well as Protestants, Jews will get to heaven, since the angel Gabriel has reassured them not to worry as the judge is their father, as I recently read in a Jewish web page.

Two nights ago in Dublin I attended a talk by Sr. Dianne Bergant, perhaps the foremost Catholic Biblical scholar in the US, who gave a most wonderful inspiring and uplifting talk, in which She advised us to read the pope’s Misericordiae Vultus.

She stated that most see God as a judge who rewards the good and punishes the wicked. Calling him a father sounds nice but has not so much impact. God is the opposite to what we expect, as he is faithful, loving, merciful and faithful, so the judge image is not the full truth.

After the lecture I had a chat with her and told her, as I have told readers of CA many times, that I cannot see how God can be merciful if hell exists. She said to me that perhaps there is a hell but no one is in it.

Initially I was enthused by her positive approach, but afterwards I realized I am still unconvinced that a good God could make a person who will suffer for all time.

Again I am back to where I started, namely that we cannot know God’s will. He is almighty, good and merciful, and we must leave things in his hands. Too much focusing on judgment is not beneficial.

I will conclude with the words of Blessed John Henry Newman:

Whatever, wherever I am I can never be thrown away. If I am in sickness, my sickness may serve Him; in perplexity, my perplexity may serve Him; if I am in sorrow, my sorrow may serve Him. He does nothing in vain. He knows what he is about. He may take away my friends, He may throw me among strangers, He may make me feel desolate, make my spirits sink, hide my future from me - still He knows what He is about.

 

[Nita]

Thanks for all the contributions, over 125, to this thread and we seem to have a consensus.

Protestants go to heaven as they trust in God, who is all merciful and loving, but Catholics go to hell as even once missing mass on a Sunday, looking at pornography or masturbating, without a proper confession, condemns a Catholic to hell for eternity,

I don’t think I saw even one post (other than yours) that held the above. I think your “consensus” needs some rewording.

Here’s how I would put it:
Protestants think they go to heaven - even if they don’t repent of serious sins - because they trust in God, who is all merciful and loving.
or
Protestants go to heaven if they are truly repentant of their serious sins and trust in God, who is all merciful and loving ; if they are unrepentant of their serious sins, they may go to hell.
It is possible for Catholics to go to hell (3 necessary conditions being present) for even once missing mass on a Sunday, looking at pornography or masturbating, if they are unrepentant and do not intend to make a proper confession.

I’m assuming Protestants who claim the Bible as authoritative, are familiar with Galatians 5:19-21, accept it as authoritative, and would therefore repent out of fear of hell if nothing else.
“Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Eph. 5:3-7 also)

 

[ATraveller]

Protestants go to heaven as they trust in God, who is all merciful and loving,

Only if they are part of God’s elect and have been transformed spiritually which yields good works and a heart that’s repentance oriented and avoid sinning.
Or they strived and lived holy lives and confess their sins to God.
Protestants must confess their sins before God and are repentant i.e. seeking and living lives that avoid sin.
Protestants who trust in God but live lives of sin and openly rebel against Him and don’t seek God for mercy and spiritual transformation go to hell.
Why? If Protestants are Bible-believing Christians then these verses among others like it matter:

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ -Matthew 7:19-23

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. -1 John 2:2-6

 

[sudy]

I think the real issue, Noel, is your lack of understanding of what Hell is, which is why you can speak of Catholics going to Hell so flippantly. And you seem to doubt the reality of Hell.
A few things to consider:

1. Hell is a separation from God, and is not necessarily a physical place but a state of being.
2. It is for those who reject God.
3. We don’t determine who does and doesn’t go to Hell, rather, we encourage all Christians to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, as St Paul asked us to.

We’ve all got access to Scripture, and therefore all know Our Lord’s statutes, but unfortunately some people seem to cherry pick statements while seemingly ignoring everything else written. To say that we’re saved regardless of our actions is 1) presumptuous, and 2) discounting everything else in Scripture. We’re told that we can’t continue living sinfully if we belong to God.
We haven’t declared that all non-Catholics are going to Hell, so please refrain from saying that Catholics are. We’re all brothers and sisters in Christ, and we should all want every one of us to achieve Heaven.

If you really are Catholic, as you indicated in one of your posts by saying ‘we Catholics’, then you really ought to start learning about your Catholic faith. I recommend the Catechism as it includes biblical references. You’ll become less fearful of Hell as you grow in your Catholic faith.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[steve-b]

1219 The Church has seen in Noah’s ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it “a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water”:

Nita:

Their are definitely fewer water baptized people that have existed in comparison with the number who have not been baptized. However, the context of that CCC quote is about water being used as an instrument to save, not about the number. The quote is from 1 Peter 3:19-22 and St. Peter uses it for the same reason.

Also, we know from Church teaching that salvation is not necessarily limited to those who have received water Baptism. God can choose to save by other means if He desires.

And still condemn those who were baptized but died in mortal sin

steve-b:

the following regarding sin and absolution of grave (mortal) sin

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

1493 One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience. The confession of venial faults, without being necessary in itself, is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.

Nita:

These regulations apply only to Catholics - not to non-Catholics who cannot receive the sacrament of Confession (exception is catechumens just before their entry into the Church).

Code of Canon Law:
Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

And what does that tell you? Are non Catholics off the hook? NO WAY

If Catholics can’t depend on prayer to be absolutely effective in receiving absolution for mortal sin what does that say for a Protestant?

John wrote he doesn’t recommend prayer for the forgiveness of mortal sin. So what do Protestants do for forgiveness of mortal sin?

Nita:

I agree with every Catechism quote you gave but not your interpretation and/or application of them. It’s probably time for us to just agree to disagree; I think we’re beginning to repeat ourselves.

God bless you, Steve.

All I do is give information properly referenced. What anyone does with it is up to them.

Blessings in return

 

[steve-b]

Nita:

If such is the case - which is what we all pray for - then many will be saved and few will be damned.

We pray that all may be saved and no one damned.

This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
(1 Tim. 2:3-4 NAB)

The last part of that statement is tied to the first. It’s therefore, huge.

NoelFitz:

This is the will of God, your holiness:
(1 Thess. 4:3a NAB)

Let’s take one example of how people screw up holiness

They deliberately miss mass on Sunday Heb 10. Or maybe they are C & E Catholics (Christmas and Easter if even THAT). Look at the consequences for those who ignore the warning. It’s catastrophic.

"if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, "

As in deliberately missing the Eucharist on Sunday

“there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[Nita]

Steve-b
And still condemn those who were baptized but died in mortal sin

Yes. All - Catholics and non-Catholics who die in the state of mortal sin will be condemned.
But, salvation is not tied to ONLY those who have been baptized and gone to sacramental Confession after committing serious sin. As the Catechism states:
CCC 1257 …God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments.
(Note the plural on “sacraments”; the teaching is not limited to just the one sacrament of Baptism.)

Consider also Our Lord’s words in Luke’s gospel:
Luke 12:47-48 That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

We Catholics have been given much. What is expected of us is not the same as what God expects from those who have not received what we have.

Steve-b
And what does that tell you? Are non Catholics off the hook? NO WAY

I certainly agree that they are not off the hook. In one of my earlier posts (#129) I quoted Gal. 5:19-21 and also referenced Eph. 5:3-7 for non-Catholic Christians who hold only the Bible as authoritative.
Noel ought to cite those verses to his Christian friend who thinks he can go straight to heaven without repenting.

As for non-Christians, God knows what He has given to them and will judge them accordingly.

 

[steve-b]

Steve-b
And still condemn those who were baptized but died in mortal sin

Agreed. And the sacrament of penance is the only way one can know they receive absolution for mortal sin when the sacrament is taken seriously by the individual.

the fact non Catholics can’t receive this sacrament in the Catholic Churh, shows the huge deficit in their condition

Nita:

Consider also Our Lord’s words in Luke’s gospel:
Luke 12:47-48 That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

We Catholics have been given much. What is expected of us is not the same as what God expects from those who have not received what we have.

Assuming “those” outside the Church have full capacity of their mental faculties, IOW they are not mentally challenged, then God expects from them what He expects from us. To listen, to learn, and be obedient to Him who created EVERYTHING and EVERYONE.

steve-b:

And what does that tell you? Are non Catholics off the hook? NO WAY

Nita:

I certainly agree that they are not off the hook. In one of my earlier posts (#129) I quoted Gal. 5:19-21 and also referenced Eph. 5:3-7 for non-Catholic Christians who hold only the Bible as authoritative.
Noel ought to cite those verses to his Christian friend who thinks he can go straight to heaven without repenting.

As for non-Christians, God knows what He has given to them and will judge them accordingly.

And we have the obligation when presented with the opportunity, to pass on the faith faithfully and do it with gentleness and kindness , but pass it on in it’s entirety.

 

[Nita]

And we have the obligation when presented with the opportunity, to pass on the faith faithfully and do it with gentleness and kindness , but pass it on in it’s entirety.

Yes, very definitely. And that includes all the Catechism, Scripture, and Canon Law quotes we have cited, mine as well as yours - and those of all the other posters.

 

[steve-b]

But as well as Protestants, Jews will get to heaven, since the angel Gabriel has reassured them not to worry as the judge is their father, as I recently read in a Jewish web page.

Do you have a specific reference?

NoelFitz:

Two nights ago in Dublin I attended a talk by Sr. Dianne Bergant, perhaps the foremost Catholic Biblical scholar in the US, who gave a most wonderful inspiring and uplifting talk, in which She advised us to read the pope’s Misericordiae Vultus.

She stated that most see God as a judge who rewards the good and punishes the wicked. Calling him a father sounds nice but has not so much impact. God is the opposite to what we expect, as he is faithful, loving, merciful and faithful, so the judge image is not the full truth.

After the lecture I had a chat with her and told her, as I have told readers of CA many times, that I cannot see how God can be merciful if hell exists. She said to me that perhaps there is a hell but no one is in it.

Problem is, universalism (the belief all are saved) is a heresy.

NoelFitz:

Initially I was enthused by her positive approach, but afterwards I realized I am still unconvinced that a good God could make a person who will suffer for all time.

He went to great lengths to save humanity. He however doesn’t force people to be saved.
Noe;Fitz:

Again I am back to where I started, namely that we cannot know God’s will. He is almighty, good and merciful, and we must leave things in his hands. Too much focusing on judgment is not beneficial.

Focusing on God’s judgement, doesn’t seem to be humanities worry right now.

NoelFitz:

I will conclude with the words of Blessed John Henry Newman:

Whatever, wherever I am I can never be thrown away. If I am in sickness, my sickness may serve Him; in perplexity, my perplexity may serve Him; if I am in sorrow, my sorrow may serve Him. He does nothing in vain. He knows what he is about. He may take away my friends, He may throw me among strangers, He may make me feel desolate, make my spirits sink, hide my future from me - still He knows what He is about.

That quote comes from March 7, #3 It’s a conclusion.

“Therefore I will trust Him” comes before that.

But what has to be done first?.. therefore, the rest comes into play

 

[margaret42]

The “spirit of the Law” is what matters, not the letter. One can make common sense deductions about what is a sin, whether the words are in the bible or not. Eg, Murder is a mortal sin; abortion is murder; Abortion is a mortal sin.

 

[NoelFitz]

I had considered I had finalized my contributions here.
But some more comments may be appropriate.

Sudy wrote to me ‘you really ought to start learning about your Catholic faith.’
I think I have already started trying to learn about Catholicism.

I wrote ‘But as well as Protestants, Jews will get to heaven, since the angel Gabriel has reassured them not to worry as the judge is their father, as I recently read in a Jewish web page.’ Steve wants a reference. I think it is not worthwhile making an issue on this point, as Catholic see God as father and judge.

Steve also mentions universalism. I am very interested in this, and it has been discussed in CA several times e.g. Universalists | Catholic Answers.

 

[Jenjen1]

I think, for someone to really loves God, he must be willing to avoid sins because it will make us farther from God. Having said that… no man is free from sin except for Jesus and Mother Mary.
So in that way I think catholic is humble enough to acknowledge that we are sinners and we are actually not worthy and that we have to repent and confess our sins. If we look at the life of saints, one thing in common : they are very humble. Not one said that : I am sure I am worthy of going to heaven. Instead all said : I am not worthy and I am a sinner
The first human sin is caused by pride. Satan also fell because of being too proud to worship God.
On the contrary, Mary was used by God because she was very humble.
To say that I am certain I will go to heaven, in my opinion is an act of boastfulness
Moreover God also said that if we love Him, we must always try to do what he says. And not everyone who called His Name will be saved.
To say that we love Him, and then continuously committing sin is not an act of love to God

 

[Nita]

I had considered I had finalized my contributions here.
But some more comments may be appropriate.

I also thought I’d given my last post here - but something else came to mind regarding God sending a Catholic to hell over one mortal sin.

We know that God loves each one of us, that He does not desire any of us to go to hell.
God is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, all merciful,… It is He who decides when a person dies. Thus it is inconceivable that God would allow the death of someone who had committed only one mortal sin IF in His foreknowledge He knew the person would repent if allowed to live longer.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
(Also Ez 33:11; 1 Tim 2:4; )

However, God could well allow Him to die after one mortal sin IF in His foreknowledge He knew the person would not only never repent of that one sin but would become even more wicked with time.