Protestants, has the reformation project run its course?

[misspriss]

Personally I never understood how anyone could sit through the same service every single Sunday with the exception of the homily. It’s one of the reasons I didn’t complete RCIA.

(That was just an observation no offense Catholics).

Personally I look forward to a varied and independent worship style when I go to Church. About the only thing that’s the same in my Church is the communion liturgy. Everything else is different every Sunday. Different songs, different sermon etc.

Of course I am a “low church” Episcopalian who is strongly Evangelical. High Church Episcopalians are very similar to Catholics in terms of liturgy and worship styles.

Actually, as someone who just is wrapping up RCIA, I find the liturgy of Mass quite beautiful, why do anything different? It is absolutely wonderful!

 

[gcnuss]

I am disappointed that the Reformation has not fully run its course. This is largely due (IMHO) to the fact that bringing the Reformation to an end will produce perceived winners and losers – and no one wants to be on the “losing” side.

As a Lutheran of the evangelical catholic strain, I pray for the unity of the Church. I believe that the Reformation will have run its course when unity is restored. I regret that I am not likely to see it in my time on this earth. But, I gladly share the love of Christ with all my Christian brothers and sisters, even as we are separated by our common faith in our Lord.

 

[JPeter]

As for the Orthodox, I would think it would be fair to say that, for them the Reformation has run its course.

I agree. I have no problem with the Orthodox at all. My reason for not becoming Orthodox is purely emphasis. I hold to Protestant distinctives. Christ crucified and raised form the dead on the third day for the remission of all of our sins is not a doctrine, it is the doctrine from which all other doctrines flow.

 

[JPeter]

I am disappointed that the Reformation has not fully run its course. This is largely due (IMHO) to the fact that bringing the Reformation to an end will produce perceived winners and losers – and no one wants to be on the “losing” side.

As a Lutheran of the evangelical catholic strain, I pray for the unity of the Church. I believe that the Reformation will have run its course when unity is restored. I regret that I am not likely to see it in my time on this earth. But, I gladly share the love of Christ with all my Christian brothers and sisters, even as we are separated by our common faith in our Lord.

Will your parish be joining the NALC? With the homosexuality issue in the ELCA no one even wants to dialogue with them anymore. A true evangelical Catholic cannot remain in a Church that has divided itself against the way the Universal Catholic faith has been understood from the beginning.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Ehhh I think your better off sticking to mass and Eucharist every Sunday with the Catholic Church. You seem to be quite happy there.

Ah, lol.

So are you still protesting? What about?

 

[andrewstx]

Most Episcopalian Evangelicals have separated from the actual Church. And mind you a lot of “baggage?!” How dare you.

By baggage I mean things that are common in Baptist, and other fundamentalist churches, and rare to non-existent in Episcopal churches. Like “getting saved” sans baptism, and once saved always saved.

Sorry to offend but you must admit the things you espouse are not common for Episcopalians.

Leftist? You or your refferenced site don’t know much about the Orthodox.

Maybe you should read the catchism. esp about baptism and the other sacraments in the Book of Common Prayer?

 

[JonNC]

=johnnyjones;9152751]If your Catholic, what should be your authority? I come from law enforcement and chain of command must be followed. The church has a heiarchy. The pope is at the top. The church has a view on scripture passages. If a priest is trying to help one in the congregation with scripture, he may research or have to go up the chain. There is ultimately a final answer that the church has.

If you are Catholic in communion with the Bishop of Rome, you do well to accept his jurisdiction.

You may find a Baptist and a Lutheran agree on a passage but they are not one body. The Universal church is.

Well, all of us are one body through our baptism.

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

Ah, lol.

So are you still protesting? What about?

Exactly, the elusive question which comes around to individual mens ideas in theology with no Magesterium; justification, dogma/doctine, faith without good works, double-predestination, penance, authentic priesthood, how sins are forgiven Biblically, the sinners prayer, and the like’s…Still.

We have some holdouts still rowing alongside the Ark.

One body through Baptism is assured, however even here we have misconception on the “how” of Baptism, and “how” many times one must be Baptised and in the Trinity etc. Some do not perform Baptism in the Trinity. And so the story goes. And so to individual men continue to define what is and isn’t in Gods Kingdom and by what authority, surely not the Biblical degree which are underwhelming in light of 2000 years of historical facts. Surely that is mere vanity, and a vanity men can hardly restrain from, to raise themselves up to God in His Kingdom. Who are the servants washing the feet as Christ so clearly stated almost 2000 years ago?

So too the question which arrives is does this method of Baptism which came down through the Apostolic Churchs up for mans interpretation also?

So is everyone on the one Ark of Salvation by saying I believe in Jesus Christ with so many methods of even Baptism?

Or do we have cults existing with a familiar tactic of evil…Half-Truths. 9-Truths and One lie which must lead to hell for as we see no-one wants to believe in Purgatory, so the next question is Why Pray to the Dead? If they are hell they are not coming out. If they are Heaven they don’t need your prayer, you need theirs.

Very confusing in this day and age, so what shall we do? As our first gnostic Pilot said What is Truth?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Exactly, the elusive question which comes around to individual mens ideas in theology with no Magesterium; justification, dogma/doctine, faith without good works, double-predestination, penance, authentic priesthood, how sins are forgiven Biblically, the sinners prayer, and the like’s…Still.

We have some holdouts still rowing alongside the Ark.

One body through Baptism is assured, however even here we have misconception on the “how” of Baptism, and “how” many times one must be Baptised and in the Trinity etc. Some do not perform Baptism in the Trinity. And so the story goes. And so to individual men continue to define what is and isn’t in Gods Kingdom and by what authority, surely not the Biblical degree which are underwhelming in light of 2000 years of historical facts. Surely that is mere vanity, and a vanity men can hardly restrain from, to raise themselves up to God in His Kingdom. Who are the servants washing the feet as Christ so clearly stated almost 2000 years ago?

So too the question which arrives is does this method of Baptism which came down through the Apostolic Churchs up for mans interpretation also?

So is everyone on the one Ark of Salvation by saying I believe in Jesus Christ with so many methods of even Baptism?

Or do we have cults existing with a familiar tactic of evil…Half-Truths. 9-Truths and One lie which must lead to hell for as we see no-one wants to believe in Purgatory, so the next question is Why Pray to the Dead? If they are hell they are not coming out. If they are Heaven they don’t need your prayer, you need theirs.

Very confusing in this day and age, so what shall we do? As our first gnostic Pilot said What is Truth?

Gary,

I think that for most people that choose to protest it comes down to having the “freedom” to practice their “religion” and/or belief in a way that is comfortable to them. An individual choice and almost “Churchless” practice. I suspect that most of them have not even read the 95 thesis and/or understand what they were about. It all comes down to individual choices and complete disregard of obedience or regard a modified obedience that does not hold them accountable to a Church body. Which is completely inconsistent with what the New Testament is about. Not only inconsistent but downright illogical and unreasonable.

 

[JonNC]

Ah, lol.

So are you still protesting? What about?

I don’t know about mitex, but I am (still) protesting, along with the Catholic Church here in America, the attack on religious liberty by government. In its current form, the administration’s attacks on religious liberty in the HHS mandate, and the attack on the ministerial exception. Oddly, this is precisely the nature of the advent of the term “protestant”, a protest of government attacks on the free exercise of religion.

Jon

 

[englishredrose]

I would not want to enter the Roman Catholic Church.

In my own opinion We/I have freedom where it seems it is not so in the RCC and I for one value that freedom very much. Though I do know many many Anglicans like to and feel as though they are as good as any Roman Catholic when it is being Roman Catholic. (Emulating Roman Catholics I mean). But I am silently, proudly Church of England and know what that means and I know what it means being Anglican Church of England and am happy to keep that. NO offence meant here you guys
I am very much aware that not one specific denomination or religion is perfect, but together we can work in unity and bring us all closer to God and can rub along together more than the Devil would like to see.*

 

[Isaiah45_9]

NO offence meant here you guys

It’s not about me englishredrose, so your individual practice can’t offend me .

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I don’t know about mitex, but I am (still) protesting, along with the Catholic Church here in America, the attack on religious liberty by government. In its current form, the administration’s attacks on religious liberty in the HHS mandate, and the attack on the ministerial exception. Oddly, this is precisely the nature of the advent of the term “protestant”, a protest of government attacks on the free exercise of religion.

Jon

Ah, I left the question open ended

How about protesting against the Catholic Church?

 

[JonNC]

Ah, I left the question open ended

How about protesting against the Catholic Church?

I think we do better dialoguing with her, seeking unity.

Jon

 

[proliferanter]

Gary,

I think that for most people that choose to protest it comes down to having the “freedom” to practice their “religion” and/or belief in a way that is comfortable to them. An individual choice and almost “Churchless” practice. I suspect that most of them have not even read the 95 thesis and/or understand what they were about. It all comes down to individual choices and complete disregard of obedience or regard a modified obedience that does not hold them accountable to a Church body. Which is completely inconsistent with what the New Testament is about. Not only inconsistent but downright illogical and unreasonable.

Exactly. It’s a “self love/pride” issue. They don’t want to be under the Pope they want to be their own Pope. (everyone is infallible except the Pope don’t’cha know?) I read from folks that say “I don’t have to believe this and that” and “I can believe what I want” how is that obedience? How many of these people would actually be in obedience to their pastor? Fact is when I was protestant and I didn’t like what my pastor said I left-that’s not obedience. Most if not all other protestants I’ve met are the same. There’s the Magisterium that sets the rules if a Catholic priest disagrees he’s in the wrong if we disagree with a priest who’s faithful to the magisterium we are in the wrong. Protestants only have “well you are wrong I’M right” mentality.

Obedience means “obeying” the magisterium. Peter is the rock in the Catholic Church ie the Pope-(peter), who’s protestant’s rock? Themselves. That’s totally unbiblical. (when they claim they stick to scripture). As long as there is people that want to be their own authority, their own interpreter of scripture…protestantism will never die…or run it’s “course”.

 

[Lincoln7]

Exactly. It’s a “self love/pride” issue. They don’t want to be under the Pope they want to be their own Pope. (everyone is infallible except the Pope don’t’cha know?) I read from folks that say “I don’t have to believe this and that” and “I can believe what I want” how is that obedience? How many of these people would actually be in obedience to their pastor? Fact is when I was protestant and I didn’t like what my pastor said I left-that’s not obedience. Most if not all other protestants I’ve met are the same. There’s the Magisterium that sets the rules if a Catholic priest disagrees he’s in the wrong if we disagree with a priest who’s faithful to the magisterium we are in the wrong. Protestants only have “well you are wrong I’M right” mentality.

Obedience means “obeying” the magisterium. Peter is the rock in the Catholic Church ie the Pope-(peter), who’s protestant’s rock? Themselves. That’s totally unbiblical. (when they claim they stick to scripture). As long as there is people that want to be their own authority, their own interpreter of scripture…protestantism will never die…or run it’s “course”.

Hi proliferanter,

I am not in the Roman Catholic Church because of some odd desire to disobey the pope at every turn and because I want to always think what i want and do what I want.

I am not in the Roman Catholic Church as I have a genuine conviction that it has departed in several aspects from what is recorded in Sacred Scripture, this does include the papacy yes, therefore I don’t want to be under it out of a conviction it is an office unheard of in the NT.

I do indeed obey and learn from my elders, they are worthy of my double honour: “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.” 1Timothy 5:17. But even they will still tell me that what they say also must be in alignment with Scripture.

As Protestants we have an authority: Jesus Christ. "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matthew 28:18. This authority is exercised through Scripture. The words of God.

Furthermore, as for the rock; well I’m happy to see it as Peters confession of faith in Christ. Or it can be Peter. It does not prove a papacy, but that’s a topic for another thread…

Peace

Lincs.

 

[gcnuss]

Will your parish be joining the NALC? With the homosexuality issue in the ELCA no one even wants to dialogue with them anymore. A true evangelical Catholic cannot remain in a Church that has divided itself against the way the Universal Catholic faith has been understood from the beginning.

Would that there might be an easy answer to this. I have opposed the ELCA’s decisions on the homosexuality question from the beginning and I still oppose them. At the same time, I feel a need to remain a voice in opposition within the ELCA – I have declared my disagreement with the ELCA’s statement on sexuality in our Synod assembly and in the presence of the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA.

As far as the parish I serve is concerned, there has been no talk of leaving the ELCA. Our focus is on carrying out our ministry in this place, proclaiming the Gospel through word, sacrament, and service in our community.

That’s where I am at this time. However, I remain open to the Holy Spirit guiding me in another direction if that is God’s will.

 

[JonNC]

Would that there might be an easy answer to this. I have opposed the ELCA’s decisions on the homosexuality question from the beginning and I still oppose them. At the same time, I feel a need to remain a voice in opposition within the ELCA – I have declared my disagreement with the ELCA’s statement on sexuality in our Synod assembly and in the presence of the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA.

As far as the parish I serve is concerned, there has been no talk of leaving the ELCA. Our focus is on carrying out our ministry in this place, proclaiming the Gospel through word, sacrament, and service in our community.

That’s where I am at this time. However, I remain open to the Holy Spirit guiding me in another direction if that is God’s will.

This is the same decision as my brother, who remains ELCA.

Jon

 

[DL82]

As Protestants we have an authority: Jesus Christ. "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matthew 28:18. This authority is exercised through Scripture. The words of God.

Lincs.

So how was that authority exercised in the years between Our Lord’s commission to his Apostles and its being written down in Scripture (around 60 years until the last book, Revelation, was written)? And how was it exercised in deciding which books counted as Scripture, including Paul’s letters, but not those of Barnabas, the Gospel of Luke, nowhere listed as one of the 12 apostles, but not the Gospel of Thomas? It took at least another 10 years to get to an agreed canon, and who decided that? The apostles’ successors, and they decided according to Tradition, which had been handed down from the beginning.

Of course, if there were ever a ruling from any of the Ecumenical Councils of the early Church which said ‘these books are Scripture, and they alone are the guide and rule of the Christian faith from now on’, it would be perfectly legitimate to say that they supersede any other authority in the Church. There is no such ruling, and by the time the canon of Scripture is defined, Christianity is already recognizably Catholic, a hierarchy of deacons, priests and bishops, offering the body and blood of Christ in liturgical worship, to a laity who obey a common rule of prayer, fasting and almsgiving.

Peace

 

[AdesteFideles]

I apologize for not having much to add in terms of discussion (at least at this moment). However, I simply wanted to state that the opening post was beautifully worded and expressed. Thank you for providing such an insight as you did, DL82.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go back to reading the rest of the thread.