Protestants have traditions

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mannyfit75
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
How is the assumption of Mary a proof of Christianity?

The Jews who opposed the Church would simply have pointed to Enoch, Moses and Elija - all of whom were assumed into Heaven either before or after death.
Absolutely not. They were convinced of the validity of these men’s teaching and if Mary had the same fate, it would have established that the same God who assumed Enoch and Elijah was working in the life of Mary. The Jews were always looking for a sign Randy. Most of the ECF’s who mention an assumption are not writing TO the Jews either, are they? No.
You have Clement (writing to Christians at Corinth), Irenaues, Tertullian, Methodius, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom,
writing about this matter.
One cannot downplay the significance of an assumption of Mary. Can you expect they would have forgotten the year, the time, the place, and so forth or have a hopelessly contradictory set of proposals?
If no one mentioned Jesus Christ being raised from the dead for 300 years, after talking about him hundreds of times, would ANYONE be reasonably expected to believe in this? Of course not.
I disagree that the majority of Jews thought Moses was assumed as a side note.
However, if God chose to take the bodies of these OT saints to heaven in a special way (and the scriptures cannot be refuted or denied about this), then why would he not honor His own Mother in similar fashion?
The Catholic Apologist MUST appeal to what God could have done instead of what is recorded in scripture or by the early church fathers. I do not argue about what is fitting. We have 400 years of people writing about Mary, we have multiple authors appealing to other assumptions as proof of their beliefs, we have contradictory accounts of what happened that cannot be reconciled, and we have people who say there is NO tradition about what happened to her.
 
No, and that is causing a slew of problems for people who think I should be going one route
I see. Well, I have a few follow up questions, if that’s okay.

Isn’t sola scriptura typically viewed as one of the pillars of Protestantism?

Do you accept sola fide?
[Concerning Tradition]No as you state it no.
Okay. Then would agree or disagree that one or more of the following doctrines are binding upon the consciences of all believers:
  1. Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.
  2. There are to be no more apostles; the office is closed.
  3. The canon of the New Testament is fixed and closed.
During the reign of Trajan, most likely. Papias, even Eusebius cannot really stand the guy, could be wrong. Although of course he was right about the millenial reign of Christ…
I was hoping you might provide actual dates since you indicated that Catholics tend to date too early…
He does not say he is. Spurious letters attempt to make him such
Spurious? Interesting.

How do you judge “The Martyrdom of Ignatius” which states:

The Martyrdom of Ignatius

Chapter 1. Desire of Ignatius for martyrdom.


When Trajan, not long since, succeeded to the empire of the Romans, Ignatius, the disciple of John the apostle, a man in all respects of an apostolic character, governed the Church of the Antiochians with great care, having with difficulty escaped the former storms of the many persecutions under Domitian, inasmuch as, like a good pilot, by the helm of prayer and fasting, by the earnestness of his teaching, and by his [constant] spiritual labour, he resisted the flood that rolled against him, fearing [only] lest he should lose any of those who were deficient in courage, or apt to suffer from their simplicity.

newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm
[Concerning the dates]That is probably close…and the others are close enough
I am pleased that you dated one Father earlier than I did and agreed with all the others. You had stated that Catholic websites tend to date too early (to improve their arguments, I presume), but we agree that the dates I provided are reasonable. Of course, I am no scholar; these dates were from sources that any layman can find in good books or on the web. Perhaps “date inflation” is not so bad after all.
  1. Was Mary conceived without sin?
    No
I understand. Would you agree that the quotes from the ECF’s concerning this are even more numerous and earlier than those for the assumption?

Thanks in advance.
 
I see. Well, I have a few follow up questions, if that’s okay.

Isn’t sola scriptura typically viewed as one of the pillars of Protestantism?
20 questions.
I do not know how to answer that. When it becomes apparent that Pentecostalism is going to be the largest group of Protestants in the next, who knows exactly, couple of years and they seem to IN PRACTICE give equal adherence to revelation of the Holy Spirit.
Sola Scriptura is a distraction I do not take.

Do you accept sola fide?
Not really.
Okay. Then would agree or disagree that one or more of the following doctrines are binding upon the consciences of all believers:
  1. Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.
Public revelation-define that for me please.
  1. There are to be no more apostles; the office is closed.
1Cr 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
**2Cr 12:12 **Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
I am saying that 1st
Corinthians 9:1 and 2nd Corinthians 12:12 point I contend, this is heavily debated in some circles, that an Apostle must have seen the lord and work signs and wonders.
More interesting, if we want to go that route, what the early Christians taught about “apostles”
  1. The canon of the New Testament is fixed and closed.
Interesting question. Did anyone ever really close the canon for some of the Orthodox? Trent closes the canon for Catholics. Protestants reject the canon of the Catholics, which always causes me to chuckle that Catholics claim they gave the canon to the church when we have a different canon. I believe that Protestants mirror the practice of the Jews who did not use a council to fix their canon. Claims concerning the disputed Council of Jamnia aside.
I was hoping you might provide actual dates since you indicated that Catholics tend to date too early…
I would be happy to start a post on that some time
Spurious? Interesting.

How do you judge “The Martyrdom of Ignatius” which states:
I judge it based upon what i have read. No one mentions until the 6th century I believe. With that late of a date, it would be hard to ascertain if it is spurious or interpolated.

I
understand. Would you agree that the quotes from the ECF’s concerning this are even more numerous and earlier than those for the assumption?
There is a lot more diversity of opinion concerning the ECF’s over the Immaculate Conception. Let me quote a passage I use in my book from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
]“the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter
.Origen, although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ’s passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary’s soul; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt; and that for her sins also Christ died (Origen, “In Luc. hom. xvii”). In the same manner St. Basil writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary’s soul (Epistle 259). St. Chrysostom accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum (Matthew12:46Chrysostom, Hom. xliv; cf. also “In Matt.”, hom. 4).”
 
20 questions.
That’s why this forum exists. 🙂
I do not know how to answer that. When it becomes apparent that Pentecostalism is going to be the largest group of Protestants in the next, who knows exactly, couple of years and they seem to IN PRACTICE give equal adherence to revelation of the Holy Spirit.
Sola Scriptura is a distraction I do not take.
Okay. That’s a “no”.
Do you accept sola fide
?
Not really. Interesting. This doctrine is sometimes called the material cause or principle of the Reformation because it was the central doctrinal issue for Martin Luther and the other reformers. Luther called it the “doctrine by which the church stands or falls” (Latin: articulus stantis et cadentis ecclesiae).

If you have rejected sola fide, then I wonder why you are Protestant at all. Habit?
Public revelation-define that for me please.
Cardinal Ratzinger points out that “the teaching of the Church distinguishes between ‘public Revelation’ and ‘private revelations.’” What might be surprising to some is what he then notes: “The two realities differ not only in degree but also in essence” (emphasis added). This tells us that the difference between public and private revelation is not simply that public revelation is given to or binding on all whereas private revelation is given to or binding on only some (restricted by time, place, or identity). More than that is involved: Public and private are two different kinds of revelation.

In the apologetics community, it is a commonplace to think of revelation simply as information revealed by God, especially if the mode of its revelation is supernatural or if the knowledge could not have been had apart from revelation. This model, conceiving of revelation as propositional statement of fact, is a valid and even traditional understanding of the concept of revelation (cf. A. Dulles, Models of Revelation). It is not, however, the model that Cardinal Ratzinger is using in this text. That’s fine. Terms can be used in more than one way, and in this case we are encountering a non-apologetic use of the term.

“The term ‘public Revelation’ refers to the revealing action of God directed to humanity as a whole and which finds its literary expression in the two parts of the Bible: the Old and New Testaments,” writes Cardinal Ratzinger. “It is called ‘Revelation’ because in it God gradually made himself known to men, to the point of becoming man himself, in order to draw to himself the whole world and unite it with himself through his Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. It is not a matter therefore of [merely] intellectual communication, but of a life-giving process in which God comes to meet man.”

Public revelation, using this definition, embraces the fullness of God’s self-revelation to man in Christ. It reflects the full plan of revelation, which Vatican II explained “is realized by deeds and words having in inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them” (Dei Verbum 2).

Of course, “At the same time this process naturally produces data pertaining to the mind and to the understanding of the mystery of God. It is a process which involves man in his entirety and therefore reason as well, but not reason alone” (Ratzinger, op. cit.).

Public revelation, Cardinal Ratzinger stresses, came to an end with God’s definitive Word to mankind—Jesus Christ—and with the New Testament. It is contrasted with “the concept of ‘private revelation,’ which refers to all the visions and revelations which have taken place since the completion of the New Testament” (ibid.).

Private revelation is different from public revelation in several important respects: “The authority of private revelations is essentially different from that of the definitive public Revelation. The latter demands faith; in it in fact God himself speaks to us through human words and the mediation of the living community of the Church. Faith in God and in his word is different from any other human faith, trust, or opinion. The certainty that it is God who is speaking gives me the assurance that I am in touch with truth itself. It gives me a certitude which is beyond verification by any human way of knowing” (ibid.).

(cont.)
 
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
**2Cr 12:12 **Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

I am saying that 1st Corinthians 9:1 and 2nd Corinthians 12:12 point I contend, this is heavily debated in some circles, that an Apostle must have seen the lord and work signs and wonders.
More interesting, if we want to go that route, what the early Christians taught about "apostles"I think you are saying no, but there appear to be whole words and punctuation marks missing from your sentences. You’re focused on the idea that an Apostle must have seen the Lord and be able to work signs and wonders. Is this your view?
Interesting question. Did anyone ever really close the canon for some of the Orthodox? Trent closes the canon for Catholics. Protestants reject the canon of the Catholics, which always causes me to chuckle that Catholics claim they gave the canon to the church when we have a different canon.
Then let’s be very precise. Is the New Testament canon closed? Or would you be okay with adding a really good book if one should be proposed at some point in the future?
I would be happy to start a post on that some time
Okay. I just thought that you had a date in mind given how quickly you called into question the dates frequently cited by Catholic apologists.
I judge [the Immaculate Conception] based upon what i have read. No one mentions until the 6th century I believe. With that late of a date, it would be hard to ascertain if it is spurious or interpolated.
The 6th century? Have you considered and rejected the following:

St. Augustine (c.390 AD)

“Every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virgin Mary for the sake of the honor of God.”

St. Ambrose of Milan (340-397)

“Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain.”

St. Ephraem the Syrian (c. 350)

“Thou, and Thy Mother are alone in this. You are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in Thee, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in Thy Mother.” (Poem to Christ)

“My Lady Most Holy, All-Pure, All-Immaculate, All-Stainless, All-Undefiled, All-Incorrupt, All-Inviolate …Spotless Robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment …Flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone Most Immaculate.” (Ibid)

Likewise, the Greek Liturgies of both St. Basil the Great (d. 379) and St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) call Mary “Panagia” (“All-Holy One”) and “Panagiota” (“All-Sinless One”).

Even earlier, St. Irenaeus, writing in 180 AD, tells us,
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying: ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey… having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race… Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the virgin Mary loosed through faith.” (Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, Book III c. 180 AD)

Here, St. Irenaeus uses “virginity” as a sign of sinlessness (i.e. Mary was sinless just as Eve was sinless before the Fall).
 
Busy day more time to answer indepth later hopefully. Sorry, it is difficult to punctuate and watch five kids at the same time. I do apologize. If you will go back and look, you will see my 6th century comment is applicable to the Martyrdom of Ignatius, not the Immaculate Conception.
 
This thread is now closed. Thank you for your cooperation.

God bless-

Rachel
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top