Protestants honest question about Mary

[izoid]

You are correct about traditions and/or rituals having a place in Christianity, but the problem comes into being when tradition defines scripture and moves out of bounds as it was with the religion of the Pharisees for which Jesus condemned. You see it is Scripture that defines rituals as being Biblical or not; not the other way around; otherwise anything goes and we see very clearly throughout history up until now that it does.

Are you sure that is what the pharisee’s did? As I recall, believers are told to do what the Pharisee’s say to do. We are just not supposed to do what they do. That makes it seem to me like the Pharisees were wrong in the way they practiced, or did not practice, what they taught. The problem is not the teaching, it is the practice of the teaching.

 

[DerekD]

Do you consider prayer or bowing down to a staute as a form of worship? Assuming you pray to God is that a form of worship?

 

[DerekD]

I am not angry, I was just stating the facts. They are hateful and mean and that is not what Christianity stands for. Jesus said to love thy neighbor. WBC is not scripturally correct there at all. I don’t think it is God that is working in that group at all.

I will not be deceived of having Jesus in my heart, I know He is there and no matter where I worship, I will know that. It’s not something you believe because someone tells you; you feel it. I don’t need your prayers, thanks anyway.

Yep; you are angry, your hostility is very evident, never met a Christian to turn down a prayer; perhaps you are a first. If you believe you can worship anywhere; you may very well be able to to that, but do not be surprised when things do not turn out as you hoped they would, they won’t on the path you are on, for the Bible is very clear about co-mingling and the reason is because a little leaven permeates through the entire batch.

If you have a heart for Christ as you profess and you have been made aware of what God has said, then will you obey Him? (2 Corinthians) Regardless, I have and will pray for your discernment; especially since you have small children (I assume they are small).

 

[DerekD]

Are you sure that is what the pharisee’s did? As I recall, believers are told to do what the Pharisee’s say to do. We are just not supposed to do what they do. That makes it seem to me like the Pharisees were wrong in the way they practiced, or did not practice, what they taught. The problem is not the teaching, it is the practice of the teaching.

Try reading the Bible; it really makes dialogue much easier.

Jesus say it all right here:

Matthew 23:13-33 - [Verse 13 in Original Greek]
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.] 15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, {that} is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ "You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 "And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, {that} is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ 19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 "Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears {both} by the altar and by everything on it. 21 "And whoever swears by the temple, swears {both} by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 "And whoever swears by heaven, swears {both} by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. 23 "***Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ***For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25 "***Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ***For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 27 "***Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ***For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 "***Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ***For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been {living} in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in {shedding} the blood of the prophets.’ 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure {of the guilt} of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Jesus had the greatest condemantion for the leagalist of the day; those that ruled outside the bounds of God’s Word; remember that God does not change.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;

For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS {man} SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

You see; the word “alone” is not needed; it is so implicitly prevalent and pereates throughout the Word; that it is rather explicit.

 

[sckcd]

Sorry Derekd, but I am not angry at all. It’s called indifference. I just simply don’t care what you have to say and I don’t need prayers to keep me out of the CC. Thanks anyhow.

 

[elvisman]

Lets see, Mary had Jesus, Jesus had brother and sisters, then Mary gave birth to more than 1 child or else Joseph gave birth.

You foolish aregument on Acts should be an embarrassment to you; as you are so ignorant of Scripture that you are unable to distinquish a biological reference to a disciple reference. What was even more embarrassing was the comical use of cousin, to say the passage used “cousin” because they were “cousins”…duhh

Which is why when the word brother is used in reference to His brothers, the passages use the word brother to mean what “brother”. Isn’t that something? You cannot dismiss John 7 and just make it evaporate. Are you in glenn Beck’s new book? Just kidding.

I hope the other poster now can see that you are indeed a defender and not a believer; you have proven the point in very comical fashion. Miracles happen everyday; might God bless you!

Can you name his uterine siblings.
EASY question . . .

 

[crazzeto]

Jesus says, Who is My Mother? Who are My brethren? Then He said, Even he that doeth the will of the Father, the same is My father, mother, brother, sister.

The point is this, when Jesus began His earthly ministry; moving to the cross, all carnal human relationships were cut off and everybody in now on the basis of a disciple, one’s who needed to be healed from sin and its consequences; this applies to Mary as well.

It’s interesting what Paul says 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know {Him} {in this way} no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; (a spiritual creation)

In other words after the resurrection, there was no longer a fleshly relationship that really mattered; it is a spiritual one, and Mary is no exception.

In John 7 it says, Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing.” Then in verse 5 “For not even His brothers were believing in Him.” The Bible even names His brothers elsewhere in the Word of God. Jesus had biological brothers. Mary was not a perpetual virgin; she was not virgin born; she was just a woman called for a very special purpose.

Therefore, Jesus could not turn Mary over to His own brothers because they did not believe in Him, which must have been additional grief to the heart of Mary. The good news is when you get over into Acts l:l4, look at what happened to His earthly family. “These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.” By the time you get to the book of Acts, the whole family has become disciples of Jesus Christ.

Coming back to the cross: At the point of the cross Jesus commits Mary in the tender, loving care of John because He knows that she will be alone and because His brothers do not yet believe and because John is the only disciple at the scene; maybe for this very reason. You have here a picture of the kind of love that is divine.

Nice way to completly ignore the question:

26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

Why did Christ do that?

And who are these two people who are the childeren of a Mary standing far from the cross, while the Virgin Mary is standing at the cross?

Matthew 27

55 And there were there many women afar off, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:

56 Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

Edit
Oh here’s another good one, Acts ch 1

And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. 14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said: (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty

Lets say there are about 20 people “named”, including “the women”… that leaves 100 brothers of Christ. Are you telling me Mary gave birth to 100 sons?

 

[DerekD]

Sorry Derekd, but I am not angry at all. It’s called indifference. I just simply don’t care what you have to say and I don’t need prayers to keep me out of the CC. Thanks anyhow.

You have calmed down and that is great However; I hope you remember this conversation in a few short years from now, when things are turned upside down and going worse than you could have imagined and wonder what God is doing; for it will not be god, but rather the choices you make now. I promise I will say nothing more in regards to this; just remember this post and there will be a time in the future when you will recall and the solution will be found in Scripture. I am not a fortune teller nor can I read a crystal ball, but I do know the Word of God and what He has said and the consequences and He will chasten those whom He loves.

God bless and I pray the Father watches, protects and nutures you and your family.

 

[DerekD]

*Can you name ***his uterine siblings.
**EASY **question . . .

Look brother; you have lost; you are up against the WORD OF GOD and you cannot defeat the TRUTH; I know exactly where you are going and I will save you further embarrassment and looking more foolish than you already do. Happy trails!! Hope you make it to heaven, then we can really laugh about all of this…

 

[sckcd]

You have calmed down and that is great However; I hope you remember this conversation in a few short years from now, when things are turned upside down and going worse than you could have imagined and wonder what God is doing; for it will not be god, but rather the choices you make now. I promise I will say nothing more in regards to this; just remember this post and there will be a time in the future when you will recall and the solution will be found in Scripture. I am not a fortune teller nor can I read a crystal ball, but I do know the Word of God and what He has said and the consequences and He will chasten those whom He loves.

God bless and I pray the Father watches, protects and nutures you and your family.

I was never NOT calm… I guess you just aren’t that effective.

And I don’t think my life will be “upside down and going worse than I could imagine and wonder what God is doing” because of my choices. Sorry. I don’t think attending a Catholic church will curse me and my family. Please find something else to do than reply to my posts, I don’t need your help or prayers.

 

[DerekD]

Nice way to completly ignore the question:

i completely answered the question; but it is not a simple as you might think, so I had to set it up, but the direct answer lies in the last paragraph, but you cannot discern the things of Scripture, which is evidence, I said evidence, that you do not possess the HS as your guide to the things of God.

And who are these two people who are the childeren of a Mary standing far from the cross, while the Virgin Mary is standing at the cross?

Matthew 27



Edit
Oh here’s another good one, Acts ch 1

Lets say there are about 20 people “named”, including “the women”… that leaves 100 brothers of Christ. Are you telling me Mary gave birth to 100 sons? You also, like Elvis are unable to distinquish between the context of biological brother with the context of Christian brothers, a very basic thing, which is furhter evidence, I said further evidence, that you do not posess the HS as your guide to Truth.

I know where you are also trying to go; but you don’t nor does Elvis understand that there are 3 James, maybe 4 listed in the Scripture. Two of them were of the 12, the other is the brother of Jesus who was the Pastor in the Jerusalem church. But since neither of you can understand the basic things; there is no point in reaching deeper into the Word; that would be putting the cart before the horse. You either get on your knees, then get to work and start reading and studying Scripture or die in your ignorance; it is your free choice. there are two paths of the life the broad way and the narrow way; which path is the easier one? the broad way, which is marked heaven but doesn’t go there.

 

[elvisman]

Look brother; you have lost; you are up against the WORD OF GOD and you cannot defeat the TRUTH; I know exactly where you are going and I will save you further embarrassment and looking more foolish than you already do. Happy trails!! Hope you make it to heaven, then we can really laugh about all of this…

Just what I thought - you couldn’t make the case.**

Game. Set. MATCH!

 

[ccolley2]

Don’t be so ignorant of Scripture. I have shown their is a specific word used in the NT for cousin and the word brother can be used in reference to a biological brother or a Christian brother. I have shown two passages where the term for brother cannot refer to brothers in Christ, which leaves one onther possibility, He had real siblings as Scripture explicitly says.

In Greek, Adelphos (the word “brother” or “brethren”) has various meanings in the NT…Broadly it means “kinsman”. It CAN mean a blood brother. Brother can also mean a member of the same clan or tribe. It is also a term of endearment that a woman uses with her husband. You are interpreting the Greek to mean only one thing. You are assuming that because we use the term to mean one thing and one thing only in English, then it must be true for Greek. This is simply not the case. There is only one word for “cousin” or “brother” or “sister” in Hebrew or Aramaic (otherwise, why would Genesis refer to Lot as Abraham’s brother when in fact he is Abraham’s nephew?). Are you seriously suggesting that the NT writers changed Hebrew and Aramaic simply to show that Jesus had blood brothers? No, you will never convince me of that. It appears that you are ignoring the historical and cultural context of Sacred Scripture.
CC

 

[DocProct]

In Greek, Adelphos (the word “brother” or “brethren”) has various meanings in the NT…Broadly it means “kinsman”. It CAN mean a blood brother. Brother can also mean a member of the same clan or tribe. It is also a term of endearment that a woman uses with her husband. You are interpreting the Greek to mean only one thing. You are assuming that because we use the term to mean one thing and one thing only in English, then it must be true for Greek. This is simply not the case. There is only one word for “cousin” or “brother” or “sister” in Hebrew or Aramaic (otherwise, why would Genesis refer to Lot as Abraham’s brother when in fact he is Abraham’s nephew?). Are you seriously suggesting that the NT writers changed Hebrew and Aramaic simply to show that Jesus had blood brothers? No, you will never convince me of that. It appears that you are ignoring the historical and cultural context of Sacred Scripture.
CC

In the NT it is used only for Christian brother or biological brother; it is obvious that you can’t admit you are wrong. You stand against the Word of God and you will never be right; so stick with your Catholic Mary who is an invention. i have no problem with that, but do not insult the mother of Jesus by patronizing nonsense.

 

[DocProct]

Just what I thought - you couldn’t** make the case.

Game. Set. MATCH!

LOL; The Word of God beat you hands down and poor Derek D got banned for it; which shows that Catholics, like yourself are not interested in truth.

 

[Daedelus76]

You are correct about traditions and/or rituals having a place in Christianity, but the problem comes into being when tradition defines scripture and moves out of bounds as it was with the religion of the Pharisees for which Jesus condemned. You see it is Scripture that defines rituals as being Biblical or not; not the other way around; otherwise anything goes and we see very clearly throughout history up until now that it does.

The problem here is if you define Christianity as only what is in the Bible, then you could potentially have thousands of different interpretations of what it means to be a Christian. Your hermeneutic has alot of problems, Scripture doesn’t “clearly say” in the way that you think, you are succumbing to a grave intellectual error.

Perhaps you should let the first Christians themselves get a word in on what the Bible actually says, after all they created it? Go read some of the Patristic writings and you’ll find they are far closer to Catholicism than to typical non-denominationalism.

Jesus had the greatest condemantion for the leagalist of the day; those that ruled outside the bounds of God’s Word; remember that God does not change.

He condemned the legalists not because of a disdain for good works, righteous acts, or rituals, but because the Pharisees hearts were wicked. What Jesus Christ is talking about is being guided by love more than rules, and living in a way that one doesn’t use rules to justify selfishness (as the Pharisees and scribes, his critics, were prone to do). None of that is oppossed to religious rituals or admonishment towards good works.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;

Grace, faith, and works aren’t oppossed to each other. It’s one of the mysteries of faith. If you view grace too much as literally divine favor, then you will be hung up too much on a juridical understanding of what faith is. If you read the New Testament as a whole, the pseudo-calvinist ideas of salvation are refuted. Jesus Christ is actually rather mysterious about how you are saved, and I think it’s intentional. He just says that the path to destruction is wide and the gate to eternal life is narrow, “strive to enter it”.

There are plenty of writings on the “New Perspective” on St. Paul by Protestant writers talking about how St. Paul’s theology was far less of a grace/works dichotomy. Luther in a sense was right about the “how” of salvation, but in terms of the “why”, he was steeped in alot of medieval anti-semitism that misjudged Judaism as a legalistic faith that didn’t believe in God’s mercy or forgiveness. This same theological mindset has given us an overly legal understand of salvation and faith, complete with monstrosities like penal substitution and so on.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You are angry because I said they were correct; yet you do not know what I actually read. What I read they were Scripturally correct and yes they have a very rough and tough way of putting things and I would not be involved with them. But even in a group like that, god still works with one heart at a time; so we cannot put a blanket over them; that is all I am and have continued to say.

[SIGN]You are incorrect in your implication that doctrine does not matter andthe only thing is Jesus in your heart. With the wrong doctrine; many are self deceived into believing they have Jesus in their heart. it is only by the correct doctrine that Jesus will unveil Himself to a person, so doctrine matters a bunch. [/SIGN]Now I have even greater concern and will be praying for you and your family as I send this.

God bless

AMEN to that!

 

[crazzeto]

i completely answered the question; but it is not a simple as you might think, so I had to set it up, but the direct answer lies in the last paragraph, but you cannot discern the things of Scripture, which is evidence, I said evidence, that you do not possess the HS as your guide to the things of God.

And who are these two people who are the childeren of a Mary standing far from the cross, while the Virgin Mary is standing at the cross?

Matthew 27



Edit
Oh here’s another good one, Acts ch 1

Lets say there are about 20 people “named”, including “the women”… that leaves 100 brothers of Christ. Are you telling me Mary gave birth to 100 sons?

You also, like Elvis are unable to distinquish between the context of biological brother with the context of Christian brothers, a very basic thing, which is furhter evidence, I said further evidence, that you do not posess the HS as your guide to Truth.

I know where you are also trying to go; but you don’t nor does Elvis understand that there are 3 James, maybe 4 listed in the Scripture. Two of them were of the 12, the other is the brother of Jesus who was the Pastor in the Jerusalem church. But since neither of you can understand the basic things; there is no point in reaching deeper into the Word; that would be putting the cart before the horse. You either get on your knees, then get to work and start reading and studying Scripture or die in your ignorance; it is your free choice. there are two paths of the life the broad way and the narrow way; which path is the easier one? the broad way, which is marked heaven but doesn’t go there.

But you’re ignoring scripture, in order to just carelessly throw out a suggestion that “well there are so many James etc… They were probably all different people”. I’m sorry, but you can’t do that. Any theological idea must be supportable by all of scripture, and the idea that Jesus had sibblings is particularly destroyed by John 19. Now I didn’t say this is the only passage that violates this idea, but it’s certainly among the most powerful. You can not throw it out carelessly like you are. You must address it.

 

[elvisman]

LOL; The Word of God beat you hands down and poor Derek D got banned for it; which shows that Catholics, like yourself are not interested in truth.

You can’t make the case about Mary having other children either, can you?

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

This question is for Protestants who have been on this site for awhile.

Can you say that the questions that you have had on Mary, and the answers you got here helped you at all to understand why we hold her to such high standards?

And can any of you honestly say that you understand now the truth and how we honor her in our faith?

And can any of you honestly say that you can find yourself finding confort in her prayers now, and can feel any closer to her, after you have heard of our great Love for her?

Honestly, I have no problems with RC doctrines on Mary. I don’t really get the Assumption, but that poses no problems for me. I accept, more or less, the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity, and I have no problem with the Immaculate Conception. I say the “Ave Maria” sometimes.

Interestingly, I came from a liberal protestant background in the late 1960s, when the Virgin Birth seemed to be a stumbling block to “relevancy”. I became a Baha’i and accepted the Virgin Birth because it said so in the Qur’an. Now, back to the Episcopal Church, no one is questionning it anymore.

But on an emotional, prayer-life, level, I don’t connect with Marian devotions. It just isn’t part of my life. My frank response.