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rinnie
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Hi Jon, If I may ask is it intercession you reject or that Mary can intercede for us that you reject?
Also do you believe that Job could intercede for his friends and his kids?
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Also do you believe that Job could intercede for his friends and his kids?
I don’t reject that the members of the Church Triumphant, notably the Blessed Virgin, intercede for His Church Militant here on Earth, in a general sense. To deny this is to deny scripture itself. What I question is the ability of the Blessed Virgin and Church Triumphant to hear our specific invocations for specific intercession.
I, personally, use the word “question” and not “reject” because of the historic evidence, both east and west, of the practice of invocation, and its comforting effect on millions of Christians down through history. Using “reject”, just speaking for me, lacks sensitivity, and places a finality of thought on the subject that I cannot justify.
Before or after his transfer to the Church Triumphant?
Jon
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lil_flower_luv
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Hi Jon, she intercedes for us whether or not we ask her to. As a Catholic, I believe that if I ask her intercession, she will pray for me. But I also believe that she prays for me even when I forget to ask her intercession. It’s just like God watches after us despite us asking Him to. Your Father cares for you no matter what; same with your Mother.
You said, “Why be bound to a belief that is not necessary for salvation?” Well, do you think prayer is necessary for salvation? Prayer is our conversation with God. It’s how we speak our heart out to Him, and how He speaks to us. Knowing Mary and speaking to her through prayer can bring you closer to God…and therefore be a factor in your salvation. Mary has changed lives. She has brought many to Him. We know that if we can be brought any bit closer to Christ, we will try to. Mary can do that. So, personally, for my salvation, Mary plays a big role. Because I am all the more closer to the One who is my salvation.
+JMJ+
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lil_flower_luv
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Our Lady and all the saints were given the ability to hear us and pray for us by God. Look for some testimonies of people about the Blessed Mother actually appearing and speaking to them, like Fatima or Lourdes. Or perhaps testimonies of people who had a saint touch their life…by leaving a sign of hearing their request or even appearing to them. Testimonies like these are not made up! And the people who say they are haven’t opened their hearts to God’s wonders.
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elvisman
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Hi, Jon -
**We’ve bucked heads in the past and have had some good and charitable dialogue. **Can I ask you a question?
Why do you have trouble with the ability of the Church Triumphant to hear our specific invocations? If heaven is outside of time, there is no need for the saint to be omniscient to hear multiple prayers.
Also, when we look at Hebrews 12:1, we read that "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses". Witnessess hear and see - otherwise, they’re not witnesses at all. I sometimes hear non-Catholics say that the saints are "dead" and "cannot hear us".
Hebrews 12:1 seems to be a direct refutation of that sentiment, wouldn’t you say?
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lil_flower_luv
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Very good questions, Elvisman. If only you could have spoken at some of my family reunions!
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elvisman
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Well, most of my 12 siblings are Protestant and, unfortunately, some are very anti-Catholic, so I get a lot of practice!Very good questions, Elvisman. If only you could have spoken at some of my family reunions!
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Janet1983
Guest
No. I saw however that in many cases discussions are fruitless… The church does not teach everything that is done in practice and not every practice is taught by the church…
Now isn’t that a bit suggestive? Either I don’t understand the truth or I don’t honor her despite me knowing it?
No, I don’t. I have been on this page for quite a while and this has not changed much for me:
Mary was a common woman like I am. She was a virgin when she bore Jesus Christ and she had other children after that.
Her life is a wonderful example how obedience towards God can lead to many blessings. God choosing her was a great honor for her and I can hardly imagine that.
I know however that she is a great example of obedience and love for the Lord.
OK, you and lil are tag-teaming on me since I’m not vocally rejecting invocation.
But that’s ok, because, frankly I am conflicted about the issue.
The Augsburg Confession
Jon
But that’s ok, because, frankly I am conflicted about the issue.
The first answer to why is what I have been taught from childhood. Catholics often accuse Ptrotestants of moving from doctrine to doctrine freely, and personal interpretation. so, respect me in the moring when I say this. I have trouble with it because my the Lutheran Confessions have trouble with it, thus:
The Augsburg Confession
Now I know the argument, “do you not ask others to pray for you? Is that not the same thing?” Well, yes, and no, as I know those here with me can here my request for intercession. I have no such assurance about the Church Triumphant.
I do not say the saints are dead, else how could they rejoice over the repentence of one sinner as in Luke 15? Not Hebrews 12 nor anything that I have found changes what Augsburg says. That said, I do not see the practice to be anti-biblical, either, and I see no idolatry in it, unless it diverts the eyes away from Christ.
Jon
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lil_flower_luv
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I’m sure you do! God Bless you.Thank you for your response. You don’t believe in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, obviously. Just some food for thought:
"In Luke 1:26-35, Luke says that Mary was a virgin and already engaged to marry Joseph when the angel Gabriel came to her. After greeting her, he calmed her fear: “Do not be afraid Mary. You have found favor with God. You will conceive and bear a son, Jesus.” Mary answered, "How shall this be? I do not know man" (a Hebraism for sexual intercourse). Her question shows Mary knew how babies are made. The question makes no sense unless she resolved to remain a virgin even in marriage. Only then could she wonder how Gabriel’s invitation could square with her resolve. When assured that her motherhood would not involve Joseph, but altogether from the Holy Spirit, she acceded to God’s plan as the “handmaiden of the Lord.”
~Father Mateo, from Refuting the Attack on Mary
Also,
Mary was a woman like you, yes. But she was anything but common. She bore the Son of God and became both His physical and spiritual Mother. I would hardly say that’s “common.”
+JMJ+
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Nominefili
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Jon it’s funny to read your statements. You’re trying so hard to be a Catholic but you can’t quite make the leap.
For the record, I agree 100% with Jon. The Lutheran Reformers (Luther, Melancthon, etc.) almost uniformly believed in the semper virgo, the immaculate conception, purgatory, etc. It wasn’t until much later that the Lutheran church got away from those beliefs (usually during periods of anti-Catholic sentiment.) The principal difference between the Reformer’s beliefs and those of the church was that the Reformers did not believe Christ would want consciences bound to these things.
As a Lutheran, you are free to believe in the Immaculate Conception or not to. We don’t believe that such a doctrine makes any difference upon the individual’s salvation. The Catholic church, however (and please correct me if I’m wrong) teaches that one cannot stray from the entire body of doctrine at even one point or else one is outside the Church (and thus his or her soul is in jeopardy.)
I agree that many of my ‘protestant’ brethren do not give Mary her due honor and respect. However, I personally do not believe I can pray to the saints, and therefore I do not believe I can pray to Mary. Maybe I can, maybe I’m wrong, but at the end of the day, the prayer our Lord gave us was not to His mother, but rather to ‘Our Father.’ I think if I stick with that, I’ll probably be okay.
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lil_flower_luv
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I’m glad you agree with Luther. He said many nice things about Mary.Jon it’s funny to read your statements. You’re trying so hard to be a Catholic but you can’t quite make the leap.
For the record, I agree 100% with Jon. The Lutheran Reformers (Luther, Melancthon, etc.) almost uniformly believed in the semper virgo, the immaculate conception, purgatory, etc. It wasn’t until much later that the Lutheran church got away from those beliefs (usually during periods of anti-Catholic sentiment.) The principal difference between the Reformer’s beliefs and those of the church was that the Reformers did not believe Christ would want consciences bound to these things.
As a Lutheran, you are free to believe in the Immaculate Conception or not to. We don’t believe that such a doctrine makes any difference upon the individual’s salvation. The Catholic church, however (and please correct me if I’m wrong) teaches that one cannot stray from the entire body of doctrine at even one point or else one is outside the Church (and thus his or her soul is in jeopardy.)
I agree that many of my ‘protestant’ brethren do not give Mary her due honor and respect. However, I personally do not believe I can pray to the saints, and therefore I do not believe I can pray to Mary. Maybe I can, maybe I’m wrong, but at the end of the day, the prayer our Lord gave us was not to His mother, but rather to ‘Our Father.’ I think if I stick with that, I’ll probably be okay.
My favorite: “It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.” I am certain too. :heaven: Devotion to Mary brings us closer to Christ and does the job more quickly than ignoring her does.+JMJ+
Actually, nothing I believe (yet) makes me anymore than an evangelical catholic. But I’m happy to provide you a chuckle now and then.Jon it’s funny to read your statements. You’re trying so hard to be a Catholic but you can’t quite make the leap.
Jon
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elvisman
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**That’s an honest answer. I can respect that because I was the very same way - and still am in some respects. **OK, you and lil are tag-teaming on me since I’m not vocally rejecting invocation.
But that’s ok, because, frankly I am conflicted about the issue.
The first answer to why is what I have been taught from childhood. Catholics often accuse Ptrotestants of moving from doctrine to doctrine freely, and personal interpretation. so, respect me in the moring when I say this. I have trouble with it because my the Lutheran Confessions have trouble with it, thus:
The Augsburg Confession
**Like I’ve said before, many of my siblings have left the Church over the years and one of my sisters and her husband started their own church. They used to challenge me all the time and I had no intelligent answers for them. I simply believed what the Catholic Church taught. **
After years of this, I finally said, “NO MORE” and started to educate myself on the various topics. It was then that I realized that the Church was right all along and my siblings left for no other reasons that spiritual laziness and rebellion. I can say that because I saw it happen - not that ALL converts from Catholicism leave for those reasons.
I didn’t say you thought the saints were dead. I just hear that from many non-Catholics on this forum.
Your answer does lead me to wonder that if you believe they can hear us and that they are indeed part of the Body of christ - why do you have a problem asking them to pray for us?
I realize you stated it was your upbringing but maybe you need to reconsider this point.
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rinnie
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I don’t see where it would have made a difference.
Thanks for this. I appreciate it.
No, I know you didn’t say I did, that your comments were general. I just wanted you to know my belief, which I believe is quite a Lutheran belief.
I think this is my point: I’m not convinced that they can hear us, though as I mentioned Luke 15 earlier, that one verse makes me wonder. I am certainly willing to at least reevaluate my Church’s stand, why she has taken it, and the historic implications.
Thanks,
Jon
Before, while alive on this Earth, obviously he could pray for his family. And he could after death while in heaven, but I’m not convinced he would be responding to specific events.
Jon
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rinnie
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I would say before because that is one of my big thing’s about purgatory and praying for the dead. That our prayers work here on earth. BUt for sure in heaven also.
But this is not about purgatory. But what my point was proof that we can interceed for eachother in this world and the next. Because for sure Job was in this world, and his kids were in the next. SO it would have to work vice-versa.
But it could also be proof for both. Because Jobs friends were here and alive, and Jobs kids were dead in the next world. But GOd accepted his prayers for both. See what I mean?
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spoiltvictorian
Guest
What do you mean by this?
My wife and I discuss the Catholic Church binding consciences but I am really not sure what is meant by that. She can’t understand why the Church would make something not essential to salvation a doctrine that must be believed once one has heard of it. I don’t have an answer for her, and perhaps there is no answer.
OK, Let’s see if I get what you mean. It is not the praying "for" that is at issue, it is the praying “to”. My dad is quite probably praying for the well-being of his children and grandchildren here on Earth. Can he respond to my requests to him for intercession?
I am not convinced that he can. Am I on it now?
Jon
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