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Mannyfit75
Guest
But how do you know? Is your sin forgiven or retain?
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LilyM
Guest
You believe the mere act of confessing is enough? Regardless of the sincerity of the sorrow?
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chutton
Guest
I’m curious to know the response to the many great verses that have been quoted by some of the protestant members on this thread. I am wondering if any catholics would care to give insights into the many verses quoted which I think give quite solid support to Jesus being the only mediator needed.
I find the question posted quite intriguing, even more so the responses. I think the issue is not so much how can you be certain your sins are forgiven or retained, but rather what does the bible say about the actual act of confession. Does the bible explicitly say we must go through “man” (a priest) or does it say we can go directly to God through Jesus? Does it say what words we should use? Does it say whether we need to say it out loud or can it be silent prayer? I think this is more the issue rather then how can we be certain our sins are forgiven or not.
I was flipping through my bible this morning chewing on this a bit. I was reading the verses in James that talk about confessing to each other… I really think that many Protestants believe in this to a degree in regards to living transparent lives, being accountable to each other, being called to account (from each other or church leadership) when sin is evident…so we DO believe in confessing to each other in less formal sense. In our church we are encouraged to have accountability partners and there is a very specific list of questions to go through and dig into with each other. Also, when we become members of our church we are well aware that we are accountable for our actions and that other church members or leadership may approach us if we are in the wrong…and the same is expected of us as fellow sisters and brothers, to seek to sharpen each other and speak up (lovingly of course) when we see something wrong in another’s life (which takes a lot of courage I must say!). But ultimately we believe that the certainty of forgiveness comes directly from God through Jesus when we repent and confess our sins to Him (which seems to be well supported biblically by many verses that have been quoted on this thread already).
I haven’t dug into a good thorough response to the John 20 verses when Jesus sent the disciples off to “forgive or retain” sins. I need to dig in a bit more as the verse looks like it would support the catholic teaching of confession. I don’t see this confession “formula” elsewhere in the new testament though. Can someone please give more biblical support for the catholic form of confession?
I find the question posted quite intriguing, even more so the responses. I think the issue is not so much how can you be certain your sins are forgiven or retained, but rather what does the bible say about the actual act of confession. Does the bible explicitly say we must go through “man” (a priest) or does it say we can go directly to God through Jesus? Does it say what words we should use? Does it say whether we need to say it out loud or can it be silent prayer? I think this is more the issue rather then how can we be certain our sins are forgiven or not.
I was flipping through my bible this morning chewing on this a bit. I was reading the verses in James that talk about confessing to each other… I really think that many Protestants believe in this to a degree in regards to living transparent lives, being accountable to each other, being called to account (from each other or church leadership) when sin is evident…so we DO believe in confessing to each other in less formal sense. In our church we are encouraged to have accountability partners and there is a very specific list of questions to go through and dig into with each other. Also, when we become members of our church we are well aware that we are accountable for our actions and that other church members or leadership may approach us if we are in the wrong…and the same is expected of us as fellow sisters and brothers, to seek to sharpen each other and speak up (lovingly of course) when we see something wrong in another’s life (which takes a lot of courage I must say!). But ultimately we believe that the certainty of forgiveness comes directly from God through Jesus when we repent and confess our sins to Him (which seems to be well supported biblically by many verses that have been quoted on this thread already).
I haven’t dug into a good thorough response to the John 20 verses when Jesus sent the disciples off to “forgive or retain” sins. I need to dig in a bit more as the verse looks like it would support the catholic teaching of confession. I don’t see this confession “formula” elsewhere in the new testament though. Can someone please give more biblical support for the catholic form of confession?
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chutton
Guest
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chutton
Guest
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chutton
Guest
Hi,
For me this is how I am certain:
1 John 1: 5-- 2:2
Walking in the light
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
1 John 2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for** the sins of the whole world.
Also Psalm 103 and Psalm 130 There is so much throughout the whole bible I just cant list them all.**
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mark_a
Guest
Catholics often presume Protestants know the Catholic teaching about confession. I’ve seen a lot of confusion from Protestants on this board who misunderstand confession:
Catholics, although encouraged to go to confession often and at least once a year, are required to confess to a priest only mortal sins.
Just thought I’d throw that in there.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
I don’t presume to know Protestant position regarding this that is why I ask how do they know? Are their sins retain or forgiven? There is no successor of the Apostles in any of their churches.
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chutton
Guest
Please forgive my ignorance, but what does “retained” mean? Not forgiven?
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
For valid baptism, one must be baptized with water by either pouring or immersion, and must be baptized with these words: I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Out of true necessity, like your on your way to be eaten by lions in front of a crowd of Romans and you don’t have a chance to be baptized, then baptism by desire can suffice, in the mercy of God. But to willingly forgo proper Baptism for a baptism of desire is to play Russian Roulette with your soul, from a Catholic viewpoint.
O.K. I understand what you mean now. No, the Church doesn’t view this as the ordinary means of Baptism and entrance into the Church.
For valid baptism, one must be baptized with water by either pouring or immersion, and must be baptized with these words: I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Out of true necessity, like your on your way to be eaten by lions in front of a crowd of Romans and you don’t have a chance to be baptized, then baptism by desire can suffice, in the mercy of God. But to willingly forgo proper Baptism for a baptism of desire is to play Russian Roulette with your soul, from a Catholic viewpoint.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
Now why would a priest retain someone’s sin(s)? Well, there are numerous reasons, and they all are due to the unworthy disposition of the one seeking absolution. For instance, someone refuses to leave their sinful nature (i.e. move out of girlfriend’s apartment) or they are blatantly lying (i.e. I stole the leaning tower of Pisa) or they so no contrition for their sins (i.e. yeah, I did it, and I’d do it again in a heartbeat), etc. But a priest retaining sins is a very rare thing - when someone hears a priest talking about when they retained sins it is usually once or twice over a sometimes very long career.
Yes, it means that the guilt of your offense is retained with you - no forgiveness for your sin(s).
Now why would a priest retain someone’s sin(s)? Well, there are numerous reasons, and they all are due to the unworthy disposition of the one seeking absolution. For instance, someone refuses to leave their sinful nature (i.e. move out of girlfriend’s apartment) or they are blatantly lying (i.e. I stole the leaning tower of Pisa) or they so no contrition for their sins (i.e. yeah, I did it, and I’d do it again in a heartbeat), etc. But a priest retaining sins is a very rare thing - when someone hears a priest talking about when they retained sins it is usually once or twice over a sometimes very long career.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
scripturecatholic.com/confession.html
Oh, I guess I haven’t followed this thread as closely as I thought. I was under the impression that there was nothing quoted by the Protestants on this thread that hadn’t been answered. Which quotes are you saying weren’t answered?
Here’s some good links:
catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
scripturecatholic.com/confession.html
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Steadfast
Guest
Christ died as an atoning sacrifice for all my sins, this sacrifice is completely efficient; i.e. it has really accomplished all that it was meant for.
When the church, in the persons of her teachers, preachers and evangelists, proclaims the truth of this grace, it effectively looses the sinful believer from his sins and binds the sinful unbeliever in the same.
The church does have the right and duty to pronounce the forgiveness of sins to people and to forgive them but it does so only in the context of this Gospel proclamation.
This then, is what Lutherans believe.If I were Lutheran I would believe it too. As it is, it is an excellent answer.
When the church, in the persons of her teachers, preachers and evangelists, proclaims the truth of this grace, it effectively looses the sinful believer from his sins and binds the sinful unbeliever in the same.
The church does have the right and duty to pronounce the forgiveness of sins to people and to forgive them but it does so only in the context of this Gospel proclamation.
This then, is what Lutherans believe.If I were Lutheran I would believe it too. As it is, it is an excellent answer.
S
Steadfast
Guest
P.S. I will say this, the idea that the church can or does forgive sins in a way disconnected from the proclamation of the Gospel is, or should be anathema to any Catholic.
On the other hand, the idea that this ability to forgive or retain sins is tied exclusively to a sacerdotal charism is, or should be, just as problematic, if only because it changes the whole basis of the discussion with Protestants, unfairly forcing them into a context having nothing to do with their perspective.
On the other hand, the idea that this ability to forgive or retain sins is tied exclusively to a sacerdotal charism is, or should be, just as problematic, if only because it changes the whole basis of the discussion with Protestants, unfairly forcing them into a context having nothing to do with their perspective.
A
awantz
Guest
I know God has forgiven me, because His word says so and His word does not lie.
Our sacrifice is Christ’s blood that he shed for me on the cross.
A mediator is not a requirement for salvation.
T
The_Truthinator
Guest
Responding to the original question,
We (all of us, that is) are forgiven by God via repentance (turning from our old ways):
“Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land.” --2 Chron. 7:14
And via confession:
“If we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.” --1 John 1:9
Most Protestants (I am not Protestant, by the way) maintain since Christ took all sins upon himself at the Crucifixion, in the eyes of God in his position outside of the realm of time, all the sins of those who are a part of the Body of Christ are already forgiven. Yet within the realm of time (where we exist), there is a need daily to confess our sins for forgiveness, yet forgiveness does not occur based soley on confession, as it would be impossible to confess ALL sins, but because of the believer’s repentance and God’s unending mercy. Amen?
Amen.
The Apostles receiving the ability to forgive sins was a demonstration of God’s power in them, giving validity to their testimonies. Don’t forget the numerous other signs accompanying them, as well, all given so that an unbelieving world might be convinced.
We (all of us, that is) are forgiven by God via repentance (turning from our old ways):
“Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land.” --2 Chron. 7:14
And via confession:
“If we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.” --1 John 1:9
Most Protestants (I am not Protestant, by the way) maintain since Christ took all sins upon himself at the Crucifixion, in the eyes of God in his position outside of the realm of time, all the sins of those who are a part of the Body of Christ are already forgiven. Yet within the realm of time (where we exist), there is a need daily to confess our sins for forgiveness, yet forgiveness does not occur based soley on confession, as it would be impossible to confess ALL sins, but because of the believer’s repentance and God’s unending mercy. Amen?
Amen.The Apostles receiving the ability to forgive sins was a demonstration of God’s power in them, giving validity to their testimonies. Don’t forget the numerous other signs accompanying them, as well, all given so that an unbelieving world might be convinced.
K
Kitty_Chan
Guest
You ask I answer twice now you ask a third time. Im getting confused. I imagine its not the answer you are looking for.??
I know because its a promise of God, and I trust His promise.
Thats the answer. Are you asking me to question Gods promises, I dont understand.
K
Kitty_Chan
Guest
No thats not what I said.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
NCC have given some answers though I find them not fully answered. So I’ll just leave it unanswered.
K
Kitty_Chan
Guest
Reading some of the other posts now I want to say thanks for the explaination.Responding to the original question,
We (all of us, that is) are forgiven by God via repentance (turning from our old ways):
“Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land.” --2 Chron. 7:14
And via confession:
“If we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.” --1 John 1:9
Most Protestants (I am not Protestant, by the way) maintain since Christ took all sins upon himself at the Crucifixion, in the eyes of God in his position outside of the realm of time, all the sins of those who are a part of the Body of Christ are already forgiven. Yet within the realm of time (where we exist), there is a need daily to confess our sins for forgiveness, yet forgiveness does not occur based soley on confession, as it would be impossible to confess ALL sins, but because of the believer’s repentance and God’s unending mercy. Amen?
The Apostles receiving the ability to forgive sins was a demonstration of God’s power in them, giving validity to their testimonies. Don’t forget the numerous other signs accompanying them, as well, all given so that an unbelieving world might be convinced.
And if you dont mind want to add, a person is just not saying oh Im forgiven and tap dancing away, like you said it takes repentance daily and a lot of honesty between you and God.
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