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luke1_28
Guest
To Anna Scott:
There comes a time when truth can be staring us right in the face and because we aren’t seeing what we want to see, we choose to ask more…and more…and more questions. At what point do we stop asking questions and take the Truth for what it is? As a Catholic being informed of the teachings of my Church, my faith wasn’t applicable in my life…I should say that as an alcoholic, I wasn’t able to apply the teachings of the Church in my life. I am not sidestepping your questions or comments by any means. However, I think when we get into searching for answers to complicated questions, some of which require faith to accept them, the technicalities can seem to be so overbearing that the intial leap of faith itself to believe is never made.
To begin simplifying I began a question and answer dialog with God because I had to come to a God of my understanding as a recovering alcoholic. I came to some rather revealing conclusions (at least for me) that drew me closer to Him than I ever have been. Here are some of my conclusions:
*There is a God. And I am not Him.
*Since there is a God - logically He must be a personal God because Scripture shares with us that we are created in His image and likeness. You can’t get more personal than that.
*Since He created us, then He must love us. What creator in his right mind would continue creating the thing he hates? Or even, doesn’t hate - but just doesn’t care about?
*He cares for us just as an inventor perfects his invention. Just as an artist corrects the mistakes or adds more detail to his painting. Just as an author improves the characters in his story to make them more real.
*And God is a Father. A Father that gave His children so many opportunities in the Old Testament to correct their ways. He established oaths with them. He promised them that if they would listen to Him and keep their ends of the bargain in these oaths, then they would be reasonably happy in this life and happy forever in heaven in the next.
*He gave exact specifications on how to build the Temple to teach the Law. He gave them exact specs on how to build the Tabernacle where the Ark of the Covenant would sit. The Ark of the Covenant itself is detailed and made to exact specifications. This God must be a God of order and design.
*And God is our Big Brother. Jesus, God’s Son, our Big Brother in heaven came to take on our human nature. The oaths weren’t being kept in the Old Testament. Mankind was losing their faith and what faith they did have wasn’t faith practiced in love. So the Father all in perfect timing willed His Son into human history. He loved us so intimately that He wanted to become a Big Brother to each of us to show us the love of God our Father and that His Laws were capable of being followed - if practiced in love and mercy. Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly becoming Love and Mercy incarnate.
*Because Christ did not abolish the Law, God the Son started a Church. A visible living breathing Church. Through God the Son, a Church was designed, and like Our Father designing the Temple - there were details to be followed and those details were communicated directly to the Apostles.
*These details were spoke of before Christ suffered for our sins (if God was exact in the Old Testament, creating a visible ‘church’ for His children to SEE so they could come to Him for the teaching of the Law, and since God changes not, then logically His Son would create a visible Church that teach the perfection of the Law of the Old Testament through the establishment of the New Covenant).
*God gave the Holy Spirit to this Church so they could become one mind and body. He didn’t give it to individual men and inspire them to create and teach the perfected Law through SEVERAL Churches…there was just ONE. The Holy Spirit empowered this structure of men Christ spoke of and by the power of the Holy Spirit given to this fulfillled Law Church at Pentecost, it has changed the face of the Earth forever teaching truths that have grown and developed over time. The pillar and foundation of Truth - is the Church.
*As I was considering the logic of joining another Church, my conscience asked me this question: “Are you, by joining another Christian Church, following the will of the Father because you don’t agree with this or that?” My answer became this: “No. I would be following MY will by joining another church - a man-made church with no authority because the only Church that can technically and LOGICALLY - claim itself Christian, is the very first Christian Church given authority by Christ Himself because He Himself founded it.”
*Why would a good Father introduce further anarchy into the world for His children by picking a place in history (such as the time of the reformers) in which a NEW thought would be acceptable that it doesn’t matter what church you go to to find Him when historical evidence throughout the Old Testament and New Testament proves that He never taught this to His children before?
*In the mind of this alcoholic, there is anarchy in the throes of the disease of alcoholism. Being in recovery from alcoholism, one needs structure to get relief from the anarchy. The structure of the AA program liberates one from the anarchy mentality that the drunk suffers from. Logically, when one is recovering from sin - one needs structure as well. The structure of the One Church established by Christ liberates one by it’s teachings from the mentality that the sinner suffers from. It became clear in my understanding that the chaos of so many denominations does so much harm to those that are unchurched and wants to recover from sin. If a study was done, logically one could come to the conclusion that IF you are unchurched, you would more than likely continue to sin, then to pick from one of the arguing churches convinced that their way is the Way…or even to pick from one of the peaceful churches who say it doesn’t matter at all.
It doesn’t really take a great leap of faith or an answer to every technical question to understand that our Father wants to Keep It Simple too. By the design of the world, there is One Truth that it is all built upon. This One Truth which is the Law established by the Father and fulfilled by the Son, is taught to the world by the One Church given the power to teach the Truth by the Holy Spirit. This ONE Church provides us the most direct Way to get back to our ONE true home…heaven. If there is only ONE heaven - ONE true home - there should be only ONE Church that ever teaches us how to get there.
Break it down to the basics of the relationship between a Father and His children and be honest about it and you will understand.
wow - lots of words…sorry…as I look in the mirror next time I’ll remind stupid me to try to keep it more simple.
God bless,
luke1_28
There comes a time when truth can be staring us right in the face and because we aren’t seeing what we want to see, we choose to ask more…and more…and more questions. At what point do we stop asking questions and take the Truth for what it is? As a Catholic being informed of the teachings of my Church, my faith wasn’t applicable in my life…I should say that as an alcoholic, I wasn’t able to apply the teachings of the Church in my life. I am not sidestepping your questions or comments by any means. However, I think when we get into searching for answers to complicated questions, some of which require faith to accept them, the technicalities can seem to be so overbearing that the intial leap of faith itself to believe is never made.
To begin simplifying I began a question and answer dialog with God because I had to come to a God of my understanding as a recovering alcoholic. I came to some rather revealing conclusions (at least for me) that drew me closer to Him than I ever have been. Here are some of my conclusions:
*There is a God. And I am not Him.
*Since there is a God - logically He must be a personal God because Scripture shares with us that we are created in His image and likeness. You can’t get more personal than that.
*Since He created us, then He must love us. What creator in his right mind would continue creating the thing he hates? Or even, doesn’t hate - but just doesn’t care about?
*He cares for us just as an inventor perfects his invention. Just as an artist corrects the mistakes or adds more detail to his painting. Just as an author improves the characters in his story to make them more real.
*And God is a Father. A Father that gave His children so many opportunities in the Old Testament to correct their ways. He established oaths with them. He promised them that if they would listen to Him and keep their ends of the bargain in these oaths, then they would be reasonably happy in this life and happy forever in heaven in the next.
*He gave exact specifications on how to build the Temple to teach the Law. He gave them exact specs on how to build the Tabernacle where the Ark of the Covenant would sit. The Ark of the Covenant itself is detailed and made to exact specifications. This God must be a God of order and design.
*And God is our Big Brother. Jesus, God’s Son, our Big Brother in heaven came to take on our human nature. The oaths weren’t being kept in the Old Testament. Mankind was losing their faith and what faith they did have wasn’t faith practiced in love. So the Father all in perfect timing willed His Son into human history. He loved us so intimately that He wanted to become a Big Brother to each of us to show us the love of God our Father and that His Laws were capable of being followed - if practiced in love and mercy. Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly becoming Love and Mercy incarnate.
*Because Christ did not abolish the Law, God the Son started a Church. A visible living breathing Church. Through God the Son, a Church was designed, and like Our Father designing the Temple - there were details to be followed and those details were communicated directly to the Apostles.
*These details were spoke of before Christ suffered for our sins (if God was exact in the Old Testament, creating a visible ‘church’ for His children to SEE so they could come to Him for the teaching of the Law, and since God changes not, then logically His Son would create a visible Church that teach the perfection of the Law of the Old Testament through the establishment of the New Covenant).
*God gave the Holy Spirit to this Church so they could become one mind and body. He didn’t give it to individual men and inspire them to create and teach the perfected Law through SEVERAL Churches…there was just ONE. The Holy Spirit empowered this structure of men Christ spoke of and by the power of the Holy Spirit given to this fulfillled Law Church at Pentecost, it has changed the face of the Earth forever teaching truths that have grown and developed over time. The pillar and foundation of Truth - is the Church.
*As I was considering the logic of joining another Church, my conscience asked me this question: “Are you, by joining another Christian Church, following the will of the Father because you don’t agree with this or that?” My answer became this: “No. I would be following MY will by joining another church - a man-made church with no authority because the only Church that can technically and LOGICALLY - claim itself Christian, is the very first Christian Church given authority by Christ Himself because He Himself founded it.”
*Why would a good Father introduce further anarchy into the world for His children by picking a place in history (such as the time of the reformers) in which a NEW thought would be acceptable that it doesn’t matter what church you go to to find Him when historical evidence throughout the Old Testament and New Testament proves that He never taught this to His children before?
*In the mind of this alcoholic, there is anarchy in the throes of the disease of alcoholism. Being in recovery from alcoholism, one needs structure to get relief from the anarchy. The structure of the AA program liberates one from the anarchy mentality that the drunk suffers from. Logically, when one is recovering from sin - one needs structure as well. The structure of the One Church established by Christ liberates one by it’s teachings from the mentality that the sinner suffers from. It became clear in my understanding that the chaos of so many denominations does so much harm to those that are unchurched and wants to recover from sin. If a study was done, logically one could come to the conclusion that IF you are unchurched, you would more than likely continue to sin, then to pick from one of the arguing churches convinced that their way is the Way…or even to pick from one of the peaceful churches who say it doesn’t matter at all.
It doesn’t really take a great leap of faith or an answer to every technical question to understand that our Father wants to Keep It Simple too. By the design of the world, there is One Truth that it is all built upon. This One Truth which is the Law established by the Father and fulfilled by the Son, is taught to the world by the One Church given the power to teach the Truth by the Holy Spirit. This ONE Church provides us the most direct Way to get back to our ONE true home…heaven. If there is only ONE heaven - ONE true home - there should be only ONE Church that ever teaches us how to get there.
Break it down to the basics of the relationship between a Father and His children and be honest about it and you will understand.
wow - lots of words…sorry…as I look in the mirror next time I’ll remind stupid me to try to keep it more simple.
God bless,
luke1_28
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PJM
Guest
Anna you can Google “infoplease” and pull up a complete list of Popes and dates servered. Sorry I don’t have the exact address.There isn’t really any “short-hand” way to do that, although I think the list of the Popes is of help in establishing the Apostolic Succession - we see from looking at that list that we have always had a Pope, and that each Pope is duly appointed by the Council of Bishops that was working with the previous one - no legitimate Pope has ever grabbed power by violence, or set himself upon Peter’s chair without the authority of the Bishops of the Church to put him there.
List of the Popes from St. Peter to Benedict XVI.
When you read through The Faith of the Early Fathers (translated and collected by William Jurgens) it’s clear even from page 1 that those guys were not operating according to Protestant assumptions of “faith alone” or “Bible alone” - they were relying on the oral testimony of the Apostles, miracles, the Sacraments, the Bishops, and building their ideas around all of that. They also really come across as being “very Catholic” in their outlook on things. My father (who is Protestant) was given something to read by St. Ignatius of Antioch (died in 107 AD) and his comment was, “Wow, is that guy ever Catholic. Don’t you have anything by the Protestants of the same era?”
No, 'fraid not.
Love and prayers,
Pat
J
Jason_1977
Guest
Check it out, I think Jesus said I have come to create a division among you. Soemthing about I didnt come for peace, I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already ablaze…etc. Cant remember where exactly that is, but yeah, that’s the jist of it. There certainly is division. Basically, God gave us commandments. Jesus said love one another. THEN created division, & look how it distracted EVERYONE from adhering to the commandments. if you stick to that, then denomination becomes irrelevant, only keeping the commandments matters. We’re like a bunch of kids alone in the house arguing, fighting, jumping on the bed, but eventually daddy comes home. LOL
J
jmcrae
Guest
And that some would be taken up to Heaven, and others left behind. The division is He wants is not between believers, but rather He wants believers to divide themselves from unbelievers, even if they are members of the same family.
Actually, “Dad” left us a “baby sitter” (see John 21:15-19) and when “Dad” gets home, he’s not going to be real happy with the ones who weren’t paying attention to the “baby sitter”.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I’m sure there are errors. However, the meaning of the text has not been altered intentionally and the goal has always been to protect and preserve the truth of the gospel.
That was because of translations like Luther’s german translation, and others, which intentionally changed the meaning of scripture. The Albigensians changed the word of God to such an extent that they promoted homosexuality, abortion, and suicide.
The Church’s intentions were noble and needed in my opinion.
J
jblake
Guest
Anna Scott;:
It’s only been since the eighteenth century that Bible translations into the vernacular have been emphasized. That said, the Protestant Canon can be found in only 451 languages. The New Testament can be found 1,185 languages. Parts of the Bible can be found in 2,479 languages. The Catholic Canon, in its entirety, can only be found in 123 languages.
If Catholics were as serious about evangelism as Protestants are, I’d expect to see the Catholic Canon in far more languages. (By way of comparison, The Book of Mormon has been completely translated into 83 languages. They don’t count the ASL videotape as a translation.)
jonathon
By 400 AD, the Bible had been translated, in whole or in part, in 400 languages. By 500 AD, one would be hard pressed to find evidence most of those translations.
It’s only been since the eighteenth century that Bible translations into the vernacular have been emphasized. That said, the Protestant Canon can be found in only 451 languages. The New Testament can be found 1,185 languages. Parts of the Bible can be found in 2,479 languages. The Catholic Canon, in its entirety, can only be found in 123 languages.
If Catholics were as serious about evangelism as Protestants are, I’d expect to see the Catholic Canon in far more languages. (By way of comparison, The Book of Mormon has been completely translated into 83 languages. They don’t count the ASL videotape as a translation.)
jonathon
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CesarAugustus
Guest
About those differences within the Church
Sure, they exist, BUT aren’t official
You have for example the Liberation Theology, some of their adherents are like another Church (Catolicas por el derecho a decidir, Somos Iglesia, and another “progressive” groups), and in the other extreme, the Traditionalist, and a favorite example of moderates and progressives, the Sedevacantist and another more extreme positions post VC II, like those who have their own Popes"
Obviously they aren’t in line with Magisterium
God Bless You !!!
P
PRmerger
Guest
Amen! However, that does not solve the problem of interpreting exactly what it was that Jesus said. Did he really mean that you can’t divorce and remarry? Did he really mean you can’t have life unless you eat his flesh? Did he really mean to establish apostolic succession?
Yes, that is a Catholic saying by a Catholic bishop. However, other denominations which have split with the CC do not even agree on what are the “essentials”, for Scripture gives no indication what is an essential doctrine and what is a non-essential.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Can you cite your source, please?
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live63
Guest
Wow, interesting reading from all who have posted.
I have but one simple question though. With all the different denominations, beliefs and churches,
How do we know, whether or not we have it right?
Every single one of us is human. We have brains to think with and yet as lost little sheep we cling to some writings from historians (The Bible) which if read is really an interpretation by twelve people who followed a man put here to help us to avoid self distruction. Yet 2000 years later what have we Learned?
I think we are all missing the point of our existance here. None of us are perfect (I mean every single person on this planet) and we will never be perfect.
You see this place is a prison. Once we learn what it is we are to learn, we die and move on.
The bible is a guide a sort of control mechanism or better yet a prison guard.
We have to learn from the past in order to move ahead.
Have we learnedfrom the past?
I say NO. We as christians and people in general are not true to ourselves.
We definitately don’t practice the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
If we did there wouldn’t be wars, hunger or famine in this prison.
As I see (observe) this place is the cruelist environment any living organism should endure.
So, what do we do about it?
Yes pray, But pray earnestly not pretentously,
We need to open our eyes and get to the bottom of what really needs to be done on this planet earth.
Dave
I have but one simple question though. With all the different denominations, beliefs and churches,
How do we know, whether or not we have it right?
Every single one of us is human. We have brains to think with and yet as lost little sheep we cling to some writings from historians (The Bible) which if read is really an interpretation by twelve people who followed a man put here to help us to avoid self distruction. Yet 2000 years later what have we Learned?
I think we are all missing the point of our existance here. None of us are perfect (I mean every single person on this planet) and we will never be perfect.
You see this place is a prison. Once we learn what it is we are to learn, we die and move on.
The bible is a guide a sort of control mechanism or better yet a prison guard.
We have to learn from the past in order to move ahead.
Have we learnedfrom the past?
I say NO. We as christians and people in general are not true to ourselves.
We definitately don’t practice the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
If we did there wouldn’t be wars, hunger or famine in this prison.
As I see (observe) this place is the cruelist environment any living organism should endure.
So, what do we do about it?
Yes pray, But pray earnestly not pretentously,
We need to open our eyes and get to the bottom of what really needs to be done on this planet earth.
Dave
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Jesus only started one Church.
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luke1_28
Guest
Mankind will never fully learn from the past to correct their mistakes because of their fallen nature. Through this flesh and blood gravitational pull a.k.a. our passions, we gravitate towards animal like behavior - sub human behavior is a better term. God didn’t create us that way, but the temptations of the world, the flesh, or the devil if given in to, will turn us into babboons.
However, there is the gravititational pull upwards of our souls. This is the longing of the creation to meet its Creator. The longing of the children to find their way Home. It must be the images and likenesses of God within us that dictate our actions because then we will do God’s will and God will be working through us in the world. The negatives will become positives and this world will heal.
We never fully use our memory, intellect, and will to be what God designed us to be because of our passions. To learn from the past we use our memory - but do we? No. To overcome current temptations, do we use our will? Our will - yes we do use that…but God’s will for us? No. Do we do everything we possibly can to use our intellect to learn how to do God’s will? No.
This is the fallen nature that if we don’t work to overcome it, IT will overcome us. Therefore one quick gander at the news and you will see a good indicator that this world isn’t what God designed it to be. Not because God makes junk. But man does. We don’t use our free wills properly. Man was given a free will so that when we finally realized that our will was self destructive, we could ‘freely’ give our will BACK to God. That’s the beauty or ugliness of God’s freedom He gives us.
So this prison you speak of is not one built by God out of a book called the Bible. Mankind builds their own prisons doing what they feel like doing instead of doing what is right. True liberty is following the teachings of the Church as God wills it to teach us. The Church teaches that true freedom and happiness lies not in guilt free pleasure - that’s prison. The Church teaches that true freedom and happiness lies in doing the will of God.
This is why God gave mankind a Church. He granted this Church with power and authority to teach God’s will for His children using Scripture and Tradition handed down by the Apostles themselves through 2000 years of history.
The evidence speaks more in the Catholic Church favor, then it does for the protestants. Logically, a good Father would have it no other way. One Father giving One Church to teach One interpretation of The Ten Commandments. They are eternal truths that if followed would bring about an orderly world. No teaching of the Church violates any one of those Commandments but every teaching of the Church develops or clarifies them. This is the right of the Church and the Church alone that Jesus Christ founded as willed by God the Father.
God bless,
luke1_28
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
Would “Dad” be happier with the children who remembered Dad’s teaching and followed it, or who followed the “baby sitter’s” replacements into doing things contrary to Dad’s actual teachings?
G
Grace_Seeker
Guest
You know, I knew this would be the response that some Catholic would have to live63’s post. And while it fits totally within your worldview, it likewise totally ignores the point that he was making; a point I believe it would be good for the Catholic Church to hear.
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PJM
Guest
The Bible can only teach the truth.
The Bible is always true, but not always factual.
Could some of you Bible experts point out “errors” in the Divenly [but written by humans] Inspired Words of God? I’m still trying to grasp this concept.
Love and prayers,
P
PJM
Guest
So are we Catholic to lie in order to make you more comfortable?
From the day Jesus died until the day that King Henry the Eight began the Church of England, [Late 1500’s] soon followed by Luther and Calvin, there existed ONLY ONE Christian Church.
The Bible was fully written by the end of the First Century, which means that EVERYTHING in it was for the edification of Catholics, as there were no other Churches.
So friend, not making light of your position, but failing to understand where what I have stated as The Facts, can actually be disproved FACTUALLY:shrug:
So if the Bible was written and Inspired by God for his Catholic Church, is it not logical that ONLY the Catholic Church not only has the God given authority, but the ACTUAL ability to correctly interpet it.
Where are we wrong here friend? Facts, not opinion.
Confused but willing to listen, with love and prayers,
Pat
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Anna_Scott
Guest
PJM:So are we Catholic to lie in order to make you more comfortable?
From the day Jesus died until the day that King Henry the Eight began the Church of England, [Late 1500’s] soon followed by Luther and Calvin, there existed ONLY ONE Christian Church.
The Bible was fully written by the end of the First Century, which means that EVERYTHING in it was for the edification of Catholics, as there were no other Churches.
So friend, not making light of your position, but failing to understand where what I have stated as The Facts, can actually be disproved FACTUALLY:shrug:
So if the Bible was written and Inspired by God for his Catholic Church, is it not logical that ONLY the Catholic Church not only has the God given authority, but the ACTUAL ability to correctly interpet it.
Where are we wrong here friend? Facts, not opinion.
Confused but willing to listen, with love and prayers,
Pat
Actually there were a number of Christian Sects such as the Adoptionists, Gnostics, etc. So, there was never an agreement among all who called themselves Christians.
Anna
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JRKH
Guest
Thanks, and sorry to be delayed getting back to you. Been a heck of a start to the week.
Sorry if seemed to imply that the Holy Spirit doe not work through NCC churches. He truly does. I think that what I was refering to was how the Protestant founders failed to show that working of the Holy Spirit in their dealings with each other. Surely if these men were truly of the Holy Spirit of God, seeking to reform His Church, they would have spoken with a more unified voice and been willing to submit to each other in humility to resolve their differences. Instead, the protestant movement Starts off with division within the ranks.
Me too - regardless of who did what to whom. We must be ready to forgive and move on if there is to be any progress. I look at the ancient wounds of the Middle East and how it seems no one can get passed the “revenge” aspect of ancient quarrals and can only pray that we Christians won’t let this happen to us.
I agree 100% with this. I too have experienced God’s Love and the Guidance of The Holy Spirit in my Life, even as I was away from The Church - ANY Church. Of course I also fell victim of many sins and misteps that were NOT of the Holy Spirit (even though I thought they were all right) because I was relying too much on my own “understanding” and ignored the wisdom passed down through ages.
In spite of that though God protected me as I believe He has protected you.
Even this does not surprise me, for many of the Church fathers were dealing with or writing to address issues within their own “Diocese”. Also many of the issues had not been defined at the time so certainly there could and was a range of opinion and writing on these issues.
The flip side to this apparent inconsistancy is that these Church Fathers, for the most part, never entered into the arena of rebellious dissent. Or at least not without consequence. And once the various issues DID need to be defined, the Church set forth to define them based on prayerful discussion and submission to “The Church in Council” as guided by The Holy Spirit.
Yes even Paul alludes to dissention an factionalism in 1Cor 1:10-13. Whic, by the way is a powerful plea on the Part of St Paul to maintain unity and to be humble with each other.
**This Article **Might help clarify this for you.
One article that about reform from within the Church prior to the Protestant split is HERE
Peace
James
- Status