Protestants, how can this be possible?

[JRKH]

I’m not saying that my experience negates other interpretations of Mathew 16:19.

As a result of that experience, I would say, without a doubt, the authority to “bind or loose” was somehow extended to me through the Holy Spirit, and I was given a prayer which accomplished a healing, for a cancer that was an “incidental finding.” So, it must apply to individuals, calling upon this authority in the name of Christ, and not just the leadership of the Catholic Church.

Anna

I would not want to discourage you in any way since it is obvious that your Cancer was bound and cast out by the Grace of God.
However I think that in the case and context of Mt 16:19, the term Bind and Loose is given more as an authority for The Church, acting in faith, and with the Keys to the kingdom. So, while certainly God, answered your prayer that the Cancer be bound up and cast out, with an affirmative, I don’t see this as being the “main thrust” of “bind and loose” in this passage.

As I said in my previous post about this, your act of faith looks to me to fit more into the “faith can move mountains” catagory.

Peace
James

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thanks, and sorry to be delayed getting back to you. Been a heck of a start to the week.

Sorry if seemed to imply that the Holy Spirit doe not work through NCC churches. He truly does. I think that what I was refering to was how the Protestant founders failed to show that working of the Holy Spirit in their dealings with each other. Surely if these men were truly of the Holy Spirit of God, seeking to reform His Church, they would have spoken with a more unified voice and been willing to submit to each other in humility to resolve their differences. Instead, the protestant movement Starts off with division within the ranks.

Me too - regardless of who did what to whom. We must be ready to forgive and move on if there is to be any progress. I look at the ancient wounds of the Middle East and how it seems no one can get passed the “revenge” aspect of ancient quarrals and can only pray that we Christians won’t let this happen to us.

I agree 100% with this. I too have experienced God’s Love and the Guidance of The Holy Spirit in my Life, even as I was away from The Church - ANY Church. Of course I also fell victim of many sins and misteps that were NOT of the Holy Spirit (even though I thought they were all right) because I was relying too much on my own “understanding” and ignored the wisdom passed down through ages.
In spite of that though God protected me as I believe He has protected you.

Even this does not surprise me, for many of the Church fathers were dealing with or writing to address issues within their own “Diocese”. Also many of the issues had not been defined at the time so certainly there could and was a range of opinion and writing on these issues.
The flip side to this apparent inconsistancy is that these Church Fathers, for the most part, never entered into the arena of rebellious dissent. Or at least not without consequence. And once the various issues DID need to be defined, the Church set forth to define them based on prayerful discussion and submission to “The Church in Council” as guided by The Holy Spirit.

Yes even Paul alludes to dissention an factionalism in 1Cor 1:10-13. Whic, by the way is a powerful plea on the Part of St Paul to maintain unity and to be humble with each other.

**This Article **Might help clarify this for you.

One article that about reform from within the Church prior to the Protestant split is HERE

Peace
James

James: I really appreciate your perspective.

I will check the resources you gave.

If you don’t hear from me as often on the forums, you will know that I am working through the resources that you and others have given me, since yesterday. So, much to read. Greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Anna

 

[JRKH]

Posted by Anna Scott
Actually it would be much easier to just convert to Catholicism, and simply do as I’m told and accept what I am told to accept. That is very tempting sometimes.

Amen to this.

Also, I would say that there have been extremely few catholics down through the ages who have NOT questioned things. In fact, questioning things within the Church has resulted in many of the defined doctrines and practices we have today.

So - Obedience to the Church and questioning are not mutually exlusive.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Wow, interesting reading from all who have posted.

I have but one simple question though. With all the different denominations, beliefs and churches,
How do we know, whether or not we have it right?
Every single one of us is human. We have brains to think with and yet as lost little sheep we cling to some writings from historians (The Bible) which if read is really an interpretation by twelve people who followed a man put here to help us to avoid self distruction. Yet 2000 years later what have we Learned?

I think we are all missing the point of our existance here. None of us are perfect (I mean every single person on this planet) and we will never be perfect.

You see this place is a prison. Once we learn what it is we are to learn, we die and move on.

The bible is a guide a sort of control mechanism or better yet a prison guard.

We have to learn from the past in order to move ahead.
Have we learnedfrom the past?
I say NO. We as christians and people in general are not true to ourselves.
We definitately don’t practice the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
If we did there wouldn’t be wars, hunger or famine in this prison.
As I see (observe) this place is the cruelist environment any living organism should endure.

So, what do we do about it?
Yes pray, But pray earnestly not pretentously,
We need to open our eyes and get to the bottom of what really needs to be done on this planet earth.
Dave

Dave, I can still remember asking my mom that question one afternoon in the kitchen. I must ahve been about around 10 at that time. I still remember her answer.
“Because we can trace our history all the way back to the the Apostles and Jesus.”

None of the others can do this (with the exception of the Orthodox).

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Would “Dad” be happier with the children who remembered Dad’s teaching and followed it, or who followed the “baby sitter’s” replacements into doing things contrary to Dad’s actual teachings?

That’s an easy one.
If Dad left the Baby sitter in Charge, and KNEW that the baby sitter would need successors, then Dad would expect us to follow EACH of the succeeding baby sitters. Otherwise there is no reason to have one in charge.

When Dad comes home and finds that some of the babysitters didn’t do a good job, they will be dealt with severely. As will the disobedient Children. Those babysitters who did a good job, along with the obedient children will be rewarded.

Dad Knew full well what he was doing.

Peace
James

 

[Seeker100]

Wow, interesting reading from all who have posted.

I have but one simple question though. With all the different denominations, beliefs and churches,
How do we know, whether or not we have it right?

Every single one of us is human. We have brains to think with and yet as lost little sheep we cling to some writings from historians (The Bible) which if read is really an interpretation by twelve people who followed a man put here to help us to avoid self distruction. Yet 2000 years later what have we Learned?

I think we are all missing the point of our existance here. None of us are perfect (I mean every single person on this planet) and we will never be perfect.

You see this place is a prison. Once we learn what it is we are to learn, we die and move on.

The bible is a guide a sort of control mechanism or better yet a prison guard.

We have to learn from the past in order to move ahead.
Have we learnedfrom the past?
I say NO. We as christians and people in general are not true to ourselves.
We definitately don’t practice the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
If we did there wouldn’t be wars, hunger or famine in this prison.
As I see (observe) this place is the cruelist environment any living organism should endure.

So, what do we do about it?
Yes pray, But pray earnestly not pretentously,
We need to open our eyes and get to the bottom of what really needs to be done on this planet earth.
Dave

Wow, very good points!!!
Very heavy stuff. Maybe we are in purgatory right now? Maybe we were all the bad people from the past life and we are here to try and sort things out in this “jail”

Very interesting!

 

[PJM]

=Anna Scott;5728555]PJM:

Actually there were a number of Christian Sects such as the Adoptionists, Gnostics, etc. So, there was never an agreement among all who called themselves Christians.

Anna

Of course there was! It was then and it continues to be 2,000 years later the largest Christian Church in the WORLD. Then and now. Always was.

These other names you supply ARE hertics and SEPERATED from Christ One true Church.

Pat

 

[Jason_1977]

I’m not sure I understand the question, or its purpose despite my observation of bantering back and forth. How can WHAT be possible? The existence of protestants? I want to understand the topic. Thanks!

Respectfully,

Jason

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

So are we Catholic to lie in order to make you more comfortable?

From the day Jesus died until the day that King Henry the Eight began the Church of England, [Late 1500’s] soon followed by Luther and Calvin, there existed ONLY ONE Christian Church.

The Bible was fully written by the end of the First Century, which means that EVERYTHING in it was for the edification of Catholics, as there were no other Churches.

So friend, not making light of your position, but failing to understand where what I have stated as The Facts, can actually be disproved FACTUALLY:shrug:

So if the Bible was written and Inspired by God for his Catholic Church, is it not logical that ONLY the Catholic Church not only has the God given authority, but the ACTUAL ability to correctly interpet it.

Where are we wrong here friend? Facts, not opinion.

Confused but willing to listen, with love and prayers,
Pat

To say that Jesus only started ONE Church as if that proves something both misses the point and assumes far too much.

It assumes too much because it assumes that the visible church you know as the Catholic Church is the only viable option for the continued existence of that church which Jesus started. It is not, and it never has been.

Second, the use of the term “catholic” to describe the Catholic church today is quite a misnomer. There does still exist one catholic Church, but the Catholic church with its seat at Rome is not it, it is only part of the larger and genuinely truly catholic Church which is found in the universal brotherhood of all who are under the Lordship of Jesus Christ be they Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Pentecostal or other.

But more importantly, live63’s question – “With all the different denominations, beliefs and churches, How do we know, whether or not we have it right?” – remained unanswered. To simply say, as Chesteronrules did, “Jesus only started one Church.” is to not actually address the question.

Let us for a moment accept as true the statement that Jesus only started one church. How does that apply to the question at hand? It doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church that exists today is that one church that Jesus started. And even if it did, a fact I am not willing to grant, it doesn’t mean that we know that it is right in its teachings today. Certainly there have been errors taught by the Catholic church over the centures, some have even been recognized.

So, to say that there is only ONE Church that Jesus started really doesn’t address the question being posed. The question is more about though the Catholic church can say that it sees itself as the ONE Church, on what basis other than the Catholic church’s say so, should we accept that view? How many others have said that they have the corner on the truth?

The Mormons say they have the truth.
The Muslims say they have the truth.
Non-Catholic Christians say they have the truth.

Their claims and the claims of the Catholic church appear to be about equal to those who are standing outside looking in. With so many people claiming that they uniquely have the ONE truth, how can one tell the legitimacy of anyone’s claim?

 

[Jason_1977]

I’m not sure I understand the question, or its purpose despite my observation of bantering back and forth. How can WHAT be possible? The existence of protestants? I want to understand the topic. Thanks!

Respectfully,

Jason

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[Jason_1977]

well, Jesus didn’t say upon this rock I’ll build my churches either. Just my 2c.

Respectfully,

Jason

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[Jason_1977]

why accept that truth in scripture for only a moment? I say let it sink in…another 2c.

you have 4c total, LOL

Respectfully,

Jason

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[Jason_1977]

Interesting. If you take away the sacred cows, hindusim will exist still. If you take away Muhammad the Prophet, you’ll still be left with the Koran & Allah, so Islam will still exist, you can take away Moses, but the Torah will still exist & so will Judaism, but if you remove Jesus Christ, Christianity disappears completely.

Respectfully,

Jason

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[jblake]

PRmerger;:

Can you cite your source, please?

Source for what?

• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints publishes an annual report that includes the number of new languages that their material has been published in;
• UBS publishes an annual report on Bible translation, and how many languages are still without the Gospel;

jonathon

 

[jmcrae]

By 400 AD, the Bible had been translated, in whole or in part, in 400 languages. By 500 AD, one would be hard pressed to find evidence most of those translations.

Where are you getting this information from? Pope Innocent I promulgated the canon of the New Testament to the Universal Church (Catholic Churches throughout the world) in 405 AD, and the first edition of what we would think of as “the Bible” came into existence when St. Jerome completed translating them, some years later. Obviously, the individual books, and various collections of books were around before then, but in terms of what we today call “the Bible,” meaning a single volume containing the complete set of the Books of the Bible, the first one came into existence during the early to middle 400s AD.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

You know, I knew this would be the response that some Catholic would have to live63’s post. And while it fits totally within your worldview, it likewise totally ignores the point that he was making; a point I believe it would be good for the Catholic Church to hear.

I used to be a Methodist.

When I was a Methodist, I had a very distorted view of the Catholic Church based in misinformation and ignorance.

I made a very simple point that is true.

Jesus only started one Church.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please point it out.

 

[Anna_Scott]

To say that Jesus only started ONE Church as if that proves something both misses the point and assumes far too much.

It assumes too much because it assumes that the visible church you know as the Catholic Church is the only viable option for the continued existence of that church which Jesus started. It is not, and it never has been.

Second, the use of the term “catholic” to describe the Catholic church today is quite a misnomer. There does still exist one catholic Church, but the Catholic church with its seat at Rome is not it, it is only part of the larger and genuinely truly catholic Church which is found in the universal brotherhood of all who are under the Lordship of Jesus Christ be they Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Pentecostal or other.

But more importantly, live63’s question – “With all the different denominations, beliefs and churches, How do we know, whether or not we have it right?” – remained unanswered. To simply say, as Chesteronrules did, “Jesus only started one Church.” is to not actually address the question.

Let us for a moment accept as true the statement that Jesus only started one church. How does that apply to the question at hand? It doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church that exists today is that one church that Jesus started. And even if it did, a fact I am not willing to grant, it doesn’t mean that we know that it is right in its teachings today. Certainly there have been errors taught by the Catholic church over the centures, some have even been recognized.

So, to say that there is only ONE Church that Jesus started really doesn’t address the question being posed. The question is more about though the Catholic church can say that it sees itself as the ONE Church, on what basis other than the Catholic church’s say so, should we accept that view? How many others have said that they have the corner on the truth?

The Mormons say they have the truth.
The Muslims say they have the truth.
Non-Catholic Christians say they have the truth.

Their claims and the claims of the Catholic church appear to be about equal to those who are standing outside looking in. With so many people claiming that they uniquely have the ONE truth, how can one tell the legitimacy of anyone’s claim?

Grace Seeker:

Again, your posts are very insightful.

I am studying the history of the Catholic Church. I have been given many good resources in the last few days; and I am grateful for all of them. I will do the homework.

My goal here is not to win a debate, though the debater in me can cause me to get distracted—especially when some Catholic Members make a statement that is contradicted by others in the Catholic Church.

At this point, though, I hear the CC claim the sole authority of the Church that Jesus built. However, so far, it appears as though the CC claims, “I have the authority, because I say I have the authority.”

Biblical “proof texts,” quoted to support the CC’s authority, can be interpreted differently.

Of course, any different interpretation is view by the CC as proof of lack of authority to interpret Scripture, which again is saying, "I have the authority to interpret Scripture, because I say I do. It is a circular argument.

I think Catholics do not realize how their claims appear to those outside the CC. Just as Protestants do not always realize how they are viewed outside Protestantism—though if a Protestant spends any time on CAF, they get the picture, quickly. I would not expect anything else. These are Catholic Forums, and I respect the fact that non-Catholics are welcome here. That is a blessing for me.

I learn so much from the discussions here. Daily, I am pushed to expand my studies. I have received many kind PM’s and much encouragement. So, regardless of the outcome of my spiritual journey; I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Catholics.

Respectfully,
Anna

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I think Catholics do not realize how their claims appear to those outside the CC. Just as Protestants do not always realize how they are viewed outside Protestantism—though if a Protestant spends any time on CAF, they get the picture, quickly. I would not expect anything else. These are Catholic Forums, and I respect the fact that non-Catholics are welcome here. That is a blessing for me.

I learn so much from the discussions here. Daily, I am pushed to expand my studies. I have received many kind PM’s and much encouragement. So, regardless of the outcome of my spiritual journey; I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Catholics.

Respectfully,
Anna

As a former protestant, I think I have a pretty good idea how non Catholics feel about the Church.

However, I now believe that this feeling is based on an institutional bias, ignorance, and fear. I was intimidated by the history, size, and authority of the Catholic Church. This intimidation made me defensive and irrational.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. However, when it comes to matters of faith and morals, there is only one truth.

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead his Church(the apostles) into ALL truth.

Jesus prayed that his followers would be one as he and the Father are one.

This is not possible without a common authority, led by the Holy Spirit, that defines and proclaims the truth.

Jesus founded one Church, it still exists, and it will always exist.

I love the Catholic Church and I thank Jesus for the grace that led me here!!

 

[Anna_Scott]

By 400 AD, the Bible had been translated, in whole or in part, in 400 languages. By 500 AD, one would be hard pressed to find evidence most of those translations.

It’s only been since the eighteenth century that Bible translations into the vernacular have been emphasized. That said, the Protestant Canon can be found in only 451 languages. The New Testament can be found 1,185 languages. Parts of the Bible can be found in 2,479 languages. The Catholic Canon, in its entirety, can only be found in 123 languages.

If Catholics were as serious about evangelism as Protestants are, I’d expect to see the Catholic Canon in far more languages. (By way of comparison, The Book of Mormon has been completely translated into 83 languages. They don’t count the ASL videotape as a translation.) jonathon

Source for what?

• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints publishes an annual report that includes the number of new languages that their material has been published in;
• UBS publishes an annual report on Bible translation, and how many languages are still without the Gospel; jonathon

jblake: Please cite your specific source for these claims. Your claims are not consistent with the history of the transmission of Scripture and establishment of the Biblical Canon. Remember the Bible is a collection of Books/Letters etc. Oral transmission preceded written transmission. The Books/Letters circulated separately long before a Canon was established by the Catholic Church.

I am not the only one who is asking for your source. I don’t think an LDS annual report is sufficient, at least not to me.

Anna

Can you cite your source, please?

Where are you getting this information from? Pope Innocent I promulgated the canon of the New Testament to the Universal Church (Catholic Churches throughout the world) in 405 AD, and the first edition of what we would think of as “the Bible” came into existence when St. Jerome completed translating them, some years later. Obviously, the individual books, and various collections of books were around before then, but in terms of what we today call “the Bible,” meaning a single volume containing the complete set of the Books of the Bible, the first one came into existence during the early to middle 400s AD.

 

[PJM]

=Grace Seeker-To say that Jesus only started ONE Church as if that proves something both misses the point and assumes far too much.

Your issue is with God friend, He is the one that did it. Not us Catholics.

It assumes too much because it assumes that the visible church you know as the Catholic Church is the only viable option for the continued existence of that church which Jesus started. It is not, and it never has been.

No, again you have us Catholics mixed up with God. The term “One Church” appears 37 times in the new testament. for 1,600 years there was only One Christian Church; yep, the Catholic Church. Historical fact friend!

Second, the use of the term “catholic” to describe the Catholic church today is quite a misnomer. There does still exist one catholic Church, but the Catholic church with its seat at Rome is not it, it is only part of the larger and genuinely truly catholic Church which is found in the universal brotherhood of all who are under the Lordship of Jesus Christ be they Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Pentecostal or other.

Well I’ll say this about you. You have the guts to say God lied:shrug: What part of “One Church” don’t you get? Is the Bible wrong? Its even in the King James: Mt/ 16: 15-19.
Please read it and ask “self what did I just READ?’” Your asking the wrong question: “What do I think this say’s” and your knocking heads with Gods Divinely Inspired Word. 2 Tim. 3:16.

But more importantly, live63’s question – “With all the different denominations, beliefs and churches, How do we know, whether or not we have it right?” – remained unanswered. To simply say, as Chesteronrules did, “Jesus only started one Church.” is to not actually address the question.

I’m going to answer this for you, butyour not going to like it:shrug:

There has been Only One True Church founded by Jesus Himself from the time He died to the Present. Similarly there has been only one true Bible, which too was a world wide exclusive for more than a THOUSAND years. So if you are outside of the Catholic Church, if you disagree with Her Teachings; CHANGE your mind! Its is the ONLY path to truth On all matters of Faith and Morals.

Denying the truth may make you feel warm and fuzzy, but it does not change the truth.

Let us for a moment accept as true the statement that Jesus only started one church. How does that apply to the question at hand? It doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church that exists today is that one church that Jesus started. And even if it did, a fact I am not willing to grant, it doesn’t mean that we know that it is right in its teachings today. Certainly there have been errors taught by the Catholic church over the centures, some have even been recognized.

Ammmmm, yes actually it does. We can show you a list of popes from St. Peter to Pope Benedict XVI, the 265th. consecutive Catholic Pope. We can give evidence of belief and practice going back to the Apostles and continuing to the present day, some 2,000 years later. Friend, ONLY GOD can make that happen.

So, to say that there is only ONE Church that Jesus started really doesn’t address the question being posed. The question is more about though the Catholic church can say that it sees itself as the ONE Church, on what basis other than the Catholic church’s say so, should we accept that view? How many others have said that they have the corner on the truth?

Again friend your issue is with God not us. Factually Christ Founded the Catholic Church, and because the Bible was completely written by the end of the First Century, what is in it was written [NT] by Catholics for Catholics. We can know this becasue there would be no other Christian church for over 1,000 more years.

*Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Mark 3: 13 “And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Mt. 28: 18 “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”*

Mt. 18: 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; [SINGULAR] and if he refuses to listen even to the church, [SINGULAR] let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, [SINGULAR] whatever you [SINGULAR] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Sorry friend, but truth remains truth even if everyone denies it.

Love and prayers,