Protestants, how can this be possible?

[jmcrae]

Indeed they were. They were making salvation something that was done by a work, circumcision, rather than God’s grace. This is why it was not required. One did not have to be Jewish to be a Christian. Similarly, one does not have to be Catholic to be a Christian. One needs only to be connected with Jesus Christ. The institution of the Jewish society was not needed. It was sufficient to belong to Christ and Christ alone.

If that were all there was to the Early Church then there would have been no reason to have a Council meeting about it at all - first of all, there would have been no one with authority to call such a meeting, and secondly, there would have been nothing wrong with saying “Okay, members of their congregations can be circumcised, and members of our congregations don’t have to be, and it’s no big deal.” Much as it is in Protestantism today, with “Jews for Jesus” being circumcised, and others not, and with Seventh Day Adventists worshipping on Saturdays, and everyone else worshipping on Sundays.

 

[Thorwald]

Statistics show the number of Protestant secs at well in excess of 30,000!

I am befuddled, confused, bewildered how this can be a fact [a rapidly growing fact] and yet it does not seem to register with non-Catholics that something is obviously wrong.

I am very sincere in not being able to comprehend the lack of concern that seems to indicate that this is fine, it’s somehow God’s Will. There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?

I have been faithfully answeing your questions for more more than a year. Help me out here

Love and prayers,
Pat

It is very easy to comprehend. The Catholic Church started it all. The only difference is, in the Catholic Church, everyone believes in all errors, whereas, in the Protestant Churches, when they disagree, they create a new church.

 

[Jason_1977]

I’m sorry, but I cant get over how ridiculous this conversation is. I dont have the patience to even get involved in this one. It’s like arguing w. teenagers.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

It is very easy to comprehend. The Catholic Church started it all. The only difference is, in the Catholic Church, everyone believes in all errors, whereas, in the Protestant Churches, when they disagree, they create a new church.

Is it not also possible that Jesus protects the Church from teaching error as he promised?

Who has authority to teach? Note what the apostles said when someone taught incorrect doctrine:

Acts 15
23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said…27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.

 

[Thorwald]

I’m sorry, but I cant get over how ridiculous this conversation is. I dont have the patience to even get involved in this one. It’s like arguing w. teenagers.

Catholics constantly are battering Prostestants. From my experience, Catholics are the worst hypocrites. Every day when I go to the local corner store, I have to wait in line, for Catholics to buy lottery tickets. When I go for coffee, I witness them boldly confessing to one another of their sexual escapades (both fornication and adultery). I hear their filthy language (Swearing) on a daily basis. Many of these same people, I witness going to ‘Mass’. Many, I know never attend a church at all.

Sin has infected every church congregation. This includes Catholic Churches. We are told by scriptures, that we will return to the days of Noah. Guess what? We are there.

 

[live63]

Catholics constantly are battering Prostestants. From my experience, Catholics are the worst hypocrites. Every day when I go to the local corner store, I have to wait in line, for Catholics to buy lottery tickets. When I go for coffee, I witness them boldly confessing to one another of their sexual escapades (both fornication and adultery). I hear their filthy language (Swearing) on a daily basis. Many of these same people, I witness going to ‘Mass’. Many, I know never attend a church at all.

Sin has infected every church congregation. This includes Catholic Churches. We are told by scriptures, that we will return to the days of Noah. Guess what? We are there.

Hear, Hear…

I’ve read other threads in which Catholics Bash Obama and his health care program.
My question to the the Catholic Faith.
If the Roman Catholic Faith is the only church that is closest to God, Why is it, that Catholics think they are better than anyone else?
Like Thorwald claims, I am adding one more observation to this thread. I notice that alot of Catholics are divorced as well. I thought divorce was taboo in the Catholic Faith.

As I mentioned before we are all human.
And I live by this rule: No One Is Better Than Any One Else Lets start acting like we are supposed to and love thy neighbour.
Dave

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

And I live by this rule: No One Is Better Than Any One Else Lets start acting like we are supposed to and love thy neighbour.
Dave

Catholics don’t claim to be better than anyone else.

We are all sinners.

However, truth is truth.

We should seek the truth.

Right?

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by PRmerger
So you believe that it’s quite reasonable to believe, “The pope is the anti-Christ” and “the pope is the vicar of Christ” at the same time?

If I may jump into this conversation for just a minute, PR’s comments are not necessarily directed at you personally, but rather at the singular “Body of Christ”.
What is being asked is whether it is reasonable for Christ, through the Guidance Of the Holy Spirit to tell one individual or group of believers one thing while telling another individual or group of believers the exact opposite and then calling the entire umbrella group “One Body”.

Now please remember that this is Christ’s Body. The body for whom he prayed they be “One as He and the Father Are One”. How much more united in thought could there be. Also this it is the same body that St Paul exhorted over and over to be “Of One Mind”.
Given Christ’s prayer for unity, how can we, as christians, claim that such opposing view are acceptable?

I have said before and will say again that the Protestant notion of individual, Spirit led interpretation is a noble and even scripture supportable notion. However, in practice it has not worked out so well. If there was only one, two or at most, three NCC (protestant) groups, then one might have an argument for “Spirit Guided” interpretation, but not several thousand different belief systems.

The mere fact of this “denominationalism” is a very strong argument for the universal authority of The Church, which Christ Himself speaks of in Mt 18:15-18, for without a prayerful and authoritative group, such doctrinal differences cannot be overcome.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I don’t think the Church that Christ founded and the Church you think that Christ founded are one and the same. I don’t believe that Christ founded and institution. The Church that Christ founded is an assembly of all who believe in him as their Lord and Savior. That includes many who are outside of any institutional church. But it does exist anytime two or three or more are gathered in his name, regardless of institutional affiliation.

Your statements above include a couple of common errors.

1. You seem to be laboring under the assumption that "an assembly of all who believe in him as their Lord and Savior, and an “Institution” are mutually excusive. As though Christ must have founded one or the other. In point of fact, I would say that the two are much more mutually inclusive rather than exclusive.
2. The Idea that anywhere 2 or 3 are gathered is just as much the “Church” Christ founded as any other 2 or 3 gathered in His name. However, if you look carefully at Mt 18: 15-18 you’ll note that in step two of the instructions, two ro three witnesses are to be brought into the discussion - and if this does not resolve the issue THEN they are to “Tell It To The Church”. This clearly indicates an Authority that is final, and is larger than the “2or 3” mentioned later.
   In that verse Jesus mentions that where 2 or 3 gather and ask for anything in His name it will be granted. This is not the same as saying that two or three consitute “The Church”.

But to answer your question more directly, Yes, I do think it is important for a person to be a member of the Church that Christ founded. What I don’t understand is why Catholics think anyone not included in their particular institutional form of that Church is excluded from the Church that Christ founded. If a person accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, then he is a member of the body of Christ. And if a member of the body of Christ, then he is a member of Christ’s Church. Some of these people will also happen to be members of the institutional Catholic church, but if they are not it doesn’t remove them from the body of Christ. **And no teaching fo the Catholic church on that point to the contrary can change the truth of scripture which declares that we who share in this common faith in Jesus Christ are therefore also all members of the one body. ** Though the head may say to the foot you are not a part of the body, it doesn’t make it so. And neither does the Catholic may say to the non-Catholic you are not a part of the body make it so. The Spirit of Christ has said we are. And all your centuries of teaching to the contrary don’t mean a thing against that ttestimony.

The Catholic Church recognizes anyone who has been baptized using the trintarian formula as being a memeber of the Body of Christ. Those existing outside the “Institutional” Catholic Church, are in an imperfect communion, but are recognized as being our brothers in Christ.

From the Catechism: 818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . **All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” **

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

I hope the above will help to clear up these misconceptions you are laboring under.

Peace
James

 

[NotTooSmart]

Catholics don’t claim to be better than anyone else.

We are all sinners.

However, truth is truth.

We should seek the truth.

Right?

I started a thread on this topic. The issue is whether one should expect overall better conduct from any branch of Christianity that claims to be the One True Church and claims superiority over all other branches that it considers inferior.

I think that I should expect superior conduct in any branch of Christianity that claims a superior status for itself in respect to all of the remaining branches.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I started a thread on this topic. The issue is whether one should expect overall better conduct from any branch of Christianity that claims to be the One True Church and claims superiority over all other branches that it considers inferior.

I think that I should expect superior conduct in any branch of Christianity that claims a superior status for itself in respect to all of the remaining branches.

I think all humans are sinners, regardless of the truth of their beliefs.

As Chesterton said," we don’t need a Church that is right when we are right, we need a Church that is right when we are wrong."

 

[JRKH]

I started a thread on this topic. The issue is whether one should expect overall better conduct from any branch of Christianity that claims to be the One True Church and claims superiority over all other branches that it considers inferior.

I think that I should expect superior conduct in any branch of Christianity that claims a superior status for itself in respect to all of the remaining branches.

When you say superior conduct, are you refering to Doctrinally, as in what it teaches?
Or are you refering to the conduct of individuals belonging to that branch?

Big Difference.

Peace
James

 

[NotTooSmart]

When you say superior conduct, are you refering to Doctrinally, as in what it teaches?
Or are you refering to the conduct of individuals belonging to that branch?

Big Difference.

Peace
James

For any branch of Christianity that claims a superior status for itself (One True Church) I would expect one could observe superior conduct,fruit,charity coming from this same branch with respect to the “inferior” branches.

At least that seems reasonable to me.

 

[JRKH]

For any branch of Christianity that claims a superior status for itself (One True Church) I would expect one could observe superior conduct,fruit,charity coming from this same branch with respect to the “inferior” branches.

At least that seems reasonable to me.

Again I must ask are you refering to it’s teachings or to the conduct of it’s members?

Peace
James

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

For any branch of Christianity that claims a superior status for itself (One True Church) I would expect one could observe superior conduct,fruit,charity coming from this same branch with respect to the “inferior” branches.

At least that seems reasonable to me.

Well, I don’t necessarily agree, but…

The Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world. If you go to any slum in the world you are likely to find Catholic nuns or priests living and working there in order to spread the love of Jesus.

The Catholic Church is growing and has over 1.2 million members.

The Catholic Church has preserved and proclaimed the good news of Jesus for 2000 years.

No Church has been attacked more by secular society than the Catholic Church.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Again I must ask are you refering to it’s teachings or to the conduct of it’s members?

Peace
James

I thought I was clear. Superior overall conduct (fruit of the Holy Spirit, charity, etc)

 

[NotTooSmart]

Well, I don’t necessarily agree, but…

The Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world. If you go to any slum in the world you are likely to find Catholic nuns or priests living and working there in order to spread the love of Jesus.

The Catholic Church is growing and has over 1.2 million members.

The Catholic Church has preserved and proclaimed the good news of Jesus for 2000 years.

No Church has been attacked more by secular society than the Catholic Church.

That is nice. I think we can all agree that in terms of numbers the Catholic branch is the top.

However numbers is not what I was talking about.

This may be a departure from the original content of this thread. But it has been something I have been thinking about.

It just seems to me that if one branch of Christianity were really the one true church while all of the other branches were inferior, we really wouldn’t need to waste endless bandwidth arguing about this over the internet. Instead it seems to me that this would be blatantly obvious by observing this superior branch in action.

 

[JRKH]

I thought I was clear. Superior overall conduct (fruit of the Holy Spirit, charity, etc)

Well, as with anything there can be levels of “conduct”.
The Church “conducts” it’s teaching and governance very well. Teachings are generally clear, with libral reference to the Scriptures and ECFs. It Also conducts its Charities equally well, serving all over the world and in many ministries and capacities from running soup kitchens and free stores to founding and operating hospitals.
The Church beautifully illustrates each Gift of the Holy Spirit in her teachings and actions.

Now - As to how individual members of the Church demonstrate those gifts, or lack there-of, they will run the gamut from very well and holy to very poorly and sinful. This is because The Church is not a haven for saints but rather a Hospital for sinners.

Peace
James

 

[NotTooSmart]

Well, as with anything there can be levels of “conduct”.
The Church “conducts” it’s teaching and governance very well. Teachings are generally clear, with libral reference to the Scriptures and ECFs. It Also conducts its Charities equally well, serving all over the world and in many ministries and capacities from running soup kitchens and free stores to founding and operating hospitals.
The Church beautifully illustrates each Gift of the Holy Spirit in her teachings and actions.

Now - As to how individual members of the Church demonstrate those gifts, or lack there-of, they will run the gamut from very well and holy to very poorly and sinful. This is because The Church is not a haven for saints but rather a Hospital for sinners.

Peace
James

I could ask some follow-up questions but it would veer this thread off-topic. You have some good points and some others I am not sure of.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That is nice. I think we can all agree that in terms of numbers the Catholic branch is the top.

However numbers is not what I was talking about.

This may be a departure from the original content of this thread. But it has been something I have been thinking about.

It just seems to me that if one branch of Christianity were really the one true church while all of the other branches were inferior, we really wouldn’t need to waste endless bandwidth arguing about this over the internet. Instead it seems to me that this would be blatantly obvious by observing this superior branch in action.

I think it is obvious.

Read what early Christians believed and practiced.

Look for the Church that upholds those beliefs and practices.