Protestants, how can this be possible?

[luke1_28]

That is nice. I think we can all agree that in terms of numbers the Catholic branch is the top.

However numbers is not what I was talking about.

This may be a departure from the original content of this thread. But it has been something I have been thinking about.

It just seems to me that if one branch of Christianity were really the one true church while all of the other branches were inferior, we really wouldn’t need to waste endless bandwidth arguing about this over the internet. Instead it seems to me that this would be blatantly obvious by observing this superior branch in action.

One branch of Christianity IS the One True Church. It was started by God Himself in the flesh - Jesus Christ. All of the other branches are inferior by design - they were started by men. Logic tells you this. If Christ Himself said, “I would like you to start going to church. But I want you to attend the Church founded by Me. Do your research and let me know what you find.”, then I think if you just use plain old history books - secular even - you will find that Church.

While structures vary where they worshipped…this One Mind and the Tradition that was passed on was VISIBLE because the only Christians that existed were Catholic as named by St. Ignatius. “Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.” — Letter to the Smyrnaeans. That was written by a saint who was likely a disciple of St. John the Apostle in 110 AD.

First off, I think it bears repeating because it’s what worked for me, is to break it down to Father and child. Using logic, ask yourself if God the Father would want YOUR SALVATION to be so confusing as to have to pick between all the denominations - or in HIS mind, is there even a right to choose when His Son created One Church already? God revealed Himself and His will most fully to the Jews and thus Judaism was born. Christ revealed Himself to all and thus Christianity was born. Christians are fulfilled Jews and those fulfilled Jews had a Church - of One Mind and Body. "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.

If the Father and the Son are One - and he who has seen Christ has seen the Father - Do we really think then that God the Father would change through Christ the way His children learn His will for us? God chose one people - to reveal His will most fully to mankind in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Christ founded One Church to reveal the Father’s will most fully to mankind. "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.

 

[PRmerger]

I think that I should expect superior conduct in any branch of Christianity that claims a superior status for itself in respect to all of the remaining branches.

What you would need to do, NTS, would be to compare conduct in these Catholics before they became Catholic with how they behave after they became Catholic (did they show the fruits of the Spirit after becoming Catholic?). Obviously, that is an impossible task on a venue like the CAFs, so your observation as to how Catholics behave here is truly an irrelevant one.

As I posted on another thread: there’s a story about a Catholic writer, Walker Percy, who was a curmudgeonly old soul. Apparently, after an encounter with a snippy woman in which he was gruff–and, perhaps rude, boorish, curt–this woman sniffed, “And you call yourself a Catholic!” to which he replied, “My dear, you should imagine what I would be like were I not a Catholic.”

(This story I heard many years ago…so perhaps the details are incorrect. The point still stands, however: One cannot make a judgement about whether this person acts like a “Catholic” or “Christian”, unless one knew what they were like before. Or, what they would be like without membership in the One True Church. Perhaps the posters who have made distasteful comments are one step better than they would have been BECAUSE of the CC…we’ll never know, will we? )

You should become Catholic because it’s TRUE, not based on what you see in others. Investigate the theology, NotTooSmart, and then come home and *you *can lead others to Christ by your behavior.

 

[luke1_28]

And as far as those who hold contempt for these so called Catholics and their belief in the Eucharist good old St. Ignatius - disciple of St. John - had this to say in the VERY SAME letter:

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1

It bears repeating - They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.

Well here…say a prayer to the Holy Spirit to open your mind to what the Father really wants for His children and then read the whole letter - it’s worth the time for those truly seeking the Way, the Truth, and the Life:

newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

 

[PRmerger]

But with all of the different denominations, beliefs and churches, who do we know whether or not any of them have it right, including the Catholic church.

Can you elaborate further what beliefs specifically you believe that the CC has gotten wrong?

 

[PRmerger]

Like Thorwald claims, I am adding one more observation to this thread. I notice that alot of Catholics are divorced as well. I thought divorce was taboo in the Catholic Faith.

Here’s my observation: I notice that a lot of New Agers are on anti-depressants. I thought that being in the New Age movement was supposed to provide happiness, so why the need for chemical intervention to combat depression?

 

[PRmerger]

I am learning that there are reasonable people who think dramatically different than I. This newly emergent post-modern world processes information as differently from how I grew up thinking as did people of the Englightenment process their thougts differently from those of the medieval ages before them. We are in that time of transition between them. And while I am not comfortable with such thought processes, I have to recognize that they exist.

Since you didn’t actually answer my question, I’m going to have to presume that you as a rational creature would agree that no reasonable person can hold “I believe X” and “I believe not-X” at the same time…but you just don’t want to acknowledge it.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

The Catholic Church is growing and has over 1.2 million members.

I think you mean 1.2 billion And from what I’ve seen, Islam is growing faster than any Christian church.

No Church has been attacked more by secular society than the Catholic Church.

If the Catholic Church is the biggest, it only makes sense that it would be attacked more. The bigger you are, the bigger the target you make; that’s true for any group in any walk of life. (Although Jews have taken a disproportionate share of hits)

 

[NotTooSmart]

Using logic, ask yourself if God the Father would want YOUR SALVATION to be so confusing as to have to pick between all the denominations - or in HIS mind, is there even a right to choose when His Son created One Church already?

Oh good grief. I don’t believe that my eternal destiny with Jesus Christ hinges upon picking correctly what denomination is the correct one. I couldn’t live with that type of pressure on me.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Yes, Jesus started only ONE church. But with all of the different denominations, beliefs and churches, who do we know whether or not any of them have it right, including the Catholic church. Personal experience can tell each of us of a time when every church that we might consider has gotten it wrong. That Catholic church is not immune from that. I would assert that there is no church composed of human beings that has it right, not all of it all right all the time. We’ve all got it wrong, at least in part. And unless you can do better than suggesting that the Catholic church is the ONE church that Jesus started, you still haven’t address the real question that is being asked, which is how do we know that even it, the Catholic church, is right. Just because the Catholic church says so. Or, using a circular argument, because the Catholic church says that Jesus says the Catholic church is right. We need better answers than this first for live63, and then for those non-Christians that I am talking to.

Grace Seeker:

I agree with what you are saying. It is difficult to accept authority simply because it is declared. I’ll keep reading.

Anna

 

[jmcrae]

Oh good grief. I don’t believe that my eternal destiny with Jesus Christ hinges upon picking correctly what denomination is the correct one. I couldn’t live with that type of pressure on me.

Why wouldn’t it? If you are being taught correctly, you might still behave and believe incorrectly, sure - but if you are being taught incorrectly, it would be impossible for you to choose to behave or to believe correctly.

In the first case, you have the choice to live as Christ wants you to live; in the second case, you have no choice but to live a life of sin, unknowingly. So, yes - I think it’s really important to be in the correct Church, so that you can freely choose the gifts that Christ wants you to have in this life, and to gain the advantage of knowing how to behave, and what to believe.

 

[jmcrae]

Grace Seeker:

I agree with what you are saying. It is difficult to accept authority simply because it is declared. I’ll keep reading.

Anna

Where do you think the list of the Popes came from? Do you think that someone just strung a list of names together and made it up? Look into the history of where that list came from. (HINT: actual writings, written at the same time that they lived, written about them and what they were doing.) The first list of the Popes was given in 160 AD by St. Iranaeus of Lyons in his book Against the Heresies. He used that list in the same way that we still use it today - to show that the Catholic Church is that which was established by Christ, and that the heretical sects don’t share in that lineage.

 

[Jason_1977]

Where do you think the list of the Popes came from? Do you think that someone just strung a list of names together and made it up? Look into the history of where that list came from. (HINT: actual writings, written at the same time that they lived, written about them and what they were doing.) The first list of the Popes was given in 160 AD by St. Iranaeus of Lyons in his book Against the Heresies. He used that list in the same way that we still use it today - to show that the Catholic Church is that which was established by Christ, and that the heretical sects don’t share in that lineage.

Crazy random question, but you weren’t ever in the submarine force were you? Had a chief w. the same name as yours is why I’m asking…if not, then I apologize…

 

[jmcrae]

Crazy random question, but you weren’t ever in the submarine force were you? Had a chief w. the same name as yours is why I’m asking…if not, then I apologize…

No, that’s not me. It’s a common enough name, I guess.

 

[PJM]

=jmcrae;5730635]So, you don’t think it’s rather important to become a member of the Church that Christ founded?

It remains the one true and factual way to KNOW [not guess, not assume] that one is in a State of grace, and therefore so long as one remains that way KNOWS that they will get to heaven.

 

[Jason_1977]

It remains the one true and factual way to KNOW [not guess, not assume] that one is in a State of grace, and therefore so long as one remains that way KNOWS that they will get to heaven.

that’s like the best way to put that. If you have the need or feel like you need to go to confession, then you’re not in a state of grace, and confession around here anyway is every saturday. that’s a few days not being in a state of grace. Kinda scary if you think about it.

 

[PJM]

=Grace Seeker;5730752]Indeed they were. They were making salvation something that was done by a work, circumcision, rather than God’s grace. This is why it was not required. One did not have to be Jewish to be a Christian. Similarly, one does not have to be Catholic to be a Christian. One needs only to be connected with Jesus Christ. The institution of the Jewish society was not needed. It was sufficient to belong to Christ and Christ alone.

And we non-Catholics are. Remember, that body exists whereever two or three are gathered in his name. We are attached. We aren’t saying that the body isn’t important. We are say that the body is bigger than you ever imagined. For we know that we are a part of the body. And we know that we are attached to the body. Wake up and smell the coffee, the catholic Church is bigger than the Catholic church.

No friend,

“I am there in SPIRIT” is NOT the same as being part of the Body, [The Church] however it is unity with the community of believers.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Why wouldn’t it? If you are being taught correctly, you might still behave and believe incorrectly, sure - but if you are being taught incorrectly, it would be impossible for you to choose to behave or to believe correctly.

In the first case, you have the choice to live as Christ wants you to live; in the second case, you have no choice but to live a life of sin, unknowingly. So, yes - I think it’s really important to be in the correct Church, so that you can freely choose the gifts that Christ wants you to have in this life, and to gain the advantage of knowing how to behave, and what to believe.

Actually upon reflection I do think it is important to be in the local assembly that the Lord Jesus Christ would want you to be in.

It is just that my eternal destiny does not hinge on this.

And I do believe that myself and my family are in the local assembly that God wants us to be in.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Oh good grief. I don’t believe that my eternal destiny with Jesus Christ hinges upon picking correctly what denomination is the correct one. I couldn’t live with that type of pressure on me.

Is it your opinion that it doesn’t matter what you believe about Jesus?

For example, some “christian” faiths don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. Others believe that a one time conversion experience guarantees eternal security.

Do these things matter?

Who decides what does matter?

 

[NotTooSmart]

Is it your opinion that it doesn’t matter what you believe about Jesus?

For example, some “christian” faiths don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. Others believe that a one time conversion experience guarantees eternal security.

Do these things matter?

Who decides what does matter?

Yes but my church does believe in the divinity of Jesus and does not believe that a one time conversion experience guarantees eternal security.

Now the divinity of Jesus is a historically settled issue, but Christians have been debating the issue of eternal security for a long time. I don’t believe those Christians that disagree with our church are condemned.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Yes but my church does believe in the divinity of Jesus and does not believe that a one time conversion experience guarantees eternal security.

Now the divinity of Jesus is a historically settled issue, but Christians have been debating the issue of eternal security for a long time. I don’t believe those Christians that disagree with our church are condemned.

Here’s the problem.

Those who believe in eternal security might be more easily led astray by temptation.

This error in teaching could jeopardize salvation, as could other errors.

Don’t you think it is vital that we have a steadfast and Holy Spirit guided authority to prevent us from falling into error?