Protestants, how can this be possible?

[JRKH]

I’m actually hoping for a united Protestant church someday soon. There’s mainly very minor differences between the Protestant sects.

Not to the protestants who broke from other protestants who broke from other protestants over these “minor” differences.

It’s an interesting idea that would be fascinating to observe.

But of course since the Protestant Reformation came about primarily as a rejection of Authority and humble submission, it is unlikely to change now.
Remember that there were only a very few protestant churches in 1600. Now there are literally thousands.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I know what you claim.

However, when I evaluate the evidence and the counter evidence, I find I must make certain leaps and assumptions to arrive at the same conclusions that you do.

I think that in ANY such endeavor one must make leaps and assumptions. These are called “Faith”.
One of the Greatest assumptions in the Protestant world relates to the Bible and Sola Scriptura.

This is not the fault of most protestants today, since they were raise and taught this from day one, but many seem to think that The Holy Bible sort of “fell from the sky”. I say this somewhat, “tongue in cheek”, only to say that many protestants are ignorant of how the Bible got into their hands. They might hear about how the catholics, “made it illegal to read the bible” and “kept it in latin” and other outright falshoods, but they never here about the councils of Hippo and Carthage where the Bible canon was set by the Bishops of the Catholic Church at 72 books. They never hear about how the Catholic Church translated, copied, promulgated, Protected and defended The Holy bible for 1000 years before Luther. They never here about the 7 additional Church councils that reaffirmed the canon of the Bible, all before the Protestant Reformation. They never hear about how the first thing that the Sola Scripturists did was to change the Bible from 72 to 66 books.

Finally - I would like to point out that, while protestants will go to great lengths in time and argument to try and disprove the “Authority” aspect of Christ’s Church, most seem oblivious to the HUGE elephant sitting in the middle of their own core doctrine of "Sola or Prima or Solo Scriptura and personal interpretation.
That elephant is the simple fact of confusion within protestantism. If the Holy Spirit is truly Guiding and All one needs is this and the Bible, then there should be great unity in Doctrine and Practice among the “Reformed Churches”. In fact, there should be but one “Reformed” Church clearly dating from the mid-late 1500’s and teaching consistant doctrines since that time.

Such a Church could certainly claim a victory for SS and “Spirit Guided interpretation”. Alas such a Church does not exist. It died an early death when Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others could not agree with each other in Christian Love and work together to reform “The Church”. Instead they parted ways. Each founding their own brand of protestantism and the prideful splitting apart continues to this day.

This then brings us back to the subject of the O.P. which is, “How can this be possible” that there are so many conflicting and competing “Christian Churches” when Christ Prayed they be one; When St Paul exhorted they be “Of One Mind”; when Christ told us to “Tell it To The Church”.

What I say here is not a reflection on the sincereity of my NCC brothers, but rather a true reflection of why I came Home to the Catholic Church rather than join a NCC denomination.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I actually agree with this,. I recall reading that John Wesley believed that it was important to interpret the Bible correctly using the lens of history. I agree with Mr. Wesley.

Using the lens of history allows me to summarily reject nice new creative interpretations of the Bible like the Prosperity Gosple, Name-it-Claim-It, Pro Choice, Gay Marriage as wrong and out of the context of the historical church.

And yet how can you, as a memeber of a protestant church,

1. Allow these others to continue teaching these false doctrines, or
2. Tell them that they are wrong since the foundation of your own Church is upon the rejection of an Authoritative Church.

You see how this is a no-win situation? You are left with a knowledge that such “nice new creative interpretations” are wrong, but without any legitimate authority to tell someone else they are wrong. I refer you to your own statement earlier which points this up nicely:
But you have your interpretation I suppose and it is not my intent to talk you out of your interpretation.
This leaves you unable to correct someone who may well be condemning themselves and others by following a false Gospel.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

Oh sure. The pastor of my church I would consider a steadfast and Holy Spirit guided authority.

…until he teaches something you disagree with. Then what? Will you find a church down the street that has a theology that agrees with yours?

I’m guessing that you don’t believe that your pastor is infallible. Thus, as a fallible man, by definition,** he WILL teach you error at some point**. You ought to be very, very vigilant about a fallible man’s interpretation of Scripture, NTS, and make sure that his non-authoritative interpretations are not in error.

:bigyikes:

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by CHESTERTONRULES
Is it your opinion that it doesn’t matter what you believe about Jesus?

Again, here we see an interesting paradox. You blithely say above, “the divinity of Jesus is a historically settled issue”. Without acknowledging HOW it became a settled issue. This lack of understanding is what allows you to then say, with complete confidence that you, “don’t believe those Christians that disagree with our church are condemned.”

The divinity of Jesus was determined in Church Council as a response to false teachings by another Christian community of believers. They didn’t reject Jesus Sacrifice, they just believed differently, that’s all. So under the banner of SS and different churches preaching different things and ALL being Christian, these different believers should have been accepted as another branch of Christianity even Though they taught a Contrary Truth. (A different Gospel)

Unstead, the Divinity of Jesus was defined and then was then dogmatically declared as a belief necessary to salvation. Any who taught otherwise were expelled from the Church. Just as Christ taught us to do in Mt 18:15-18.
Today the divinity of Christ is almost universally accepted in the Christian world and those who each otherwise are still held as not being Christian because of it.

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

=JRKH;5735649]And yet how can you, as a memeber of a protestant church,

1. Allow these others to continue teaching these false doctrines, or
2. Tell them that they are wrong since the foundation of your own Church is upon the rejection of an Authoritative Church.

You see how this is a no-win situation? You are left with a knowledge that such “nice new creative interpretations” are wrong, but without any legitimate authority to tell someone else they are wrong. I refer you to your own statement earlier which points this up nicely:
But you have your interpretation I suppose and it is not my intent to talk you out of your interpretation.
This leaves you unable to correct someone who may well be condemning themselves and others by following a false Gospel.

Peace
James

Certainly there is a grain of truth in this logic.

So if your right, by default, that means that I [the Catholic Church] must be worng.

Prove it:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

 

[JRKH]

Certainly there is a grain of truth in this logic.

So if your right, by default, that means that I [the Catholic Church] must be worng.

Prove it:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

I don’t understand your question here PJM. Am I missing something??

Or was this question directed at someone else?

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

=JRKH;5737478]I don’t understand your question here PJM. Am I missing something??

Or was this question directed at someone else?

Peace
James

Non Catholics who hold to their view that the Catholic Church is wrong.

 

[Zundrah]

Statistics show the number of Protestant secs at well in excess of 30,000!

I am befuddled, confused, bewildered how this can be a fact [a rapidly growing fact] and yet it does not seem to register with non-Catholics that something is obviously wrong.

I am very sincere in not being able to comprehend the lack of concern that seems to indicate that this is fine, it’s somehow God’s Will. There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?

I have been faithfully answeing your questions for more more than a year. Help me out here

Love and prayers,
Pat

Heretics, the lot of them. Even the RCC!

 

[PRmerger]

Heretics, the lot of them. Even the RCC!

Zundrah!! I thought you “joined a roman catholic church”! What happened? The above does not sound like the Zundrah who said this:

originally posted by Zundrah:
Here is the deal,

I left a protestant church six months ago.
I have joined a roman catholic church now. So I am a candidate but not yet confirmed.
But I can’t call me self catholic yet, can I?
But I am most certainly not protestant any more!

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah!! I thought you “joined a roman catholic church”! What happened? The above does not sound like the Zundrah who said this:

Ahhhhhh, can you help me?
I am also sad about my sudden doubts…

 

[PRmerger]

i see that you stopped after the Catholics. interesting.

:clapping::yup::tiphat::bowdown:

That, NTS, is a very good point that wisdomweeker made.

 

[PRmerger]

Ahhhhhh, can you help me?
I am also sad about my sudden doubts…

I am sad about it, too. But, alas, I cannot help you. That is up to God. Catholics can only present the Truth as revealed by God’s Word, but your acceptance of it is a matter of grace, wisdom, humility…

 

[JRKH]

Ahhhhhh, can you help me?
I am also sad about my sudden doubts…

Zundrah,
I will pray for you.
Can you perhaps start a thread with your doubts? Perhaps someone can give you some help.

Peace
James

 

[luke1_28]

Oh good grief. I don’t believe that my eternal destiny with Jesus Christ hinges upon picking correctly what denomination is the correct one. I couldn’t live with that type of pressure on me.

Let me clean it up a bit because you totally missed my point.

Salvation is the most important thing in a human beings existence. Therefore, since it is so important, why would a good Father will it to be so difficult for people who have no faith (the unchurched) to choose a church to go to? It couldn’t possibly be God’s will to have ALL the various creeds, charters, professions, etc., because this makes it hard for His creation without any religion at all to determine what church to go to. You may argue, “That’s because it didn’t matter.” To which I would respond is false and an invention of protestant man - and a perversion of scripture because throughout the Old Testament and New - God says it matters!

According to the very Bible you hold higher than the Body and Blood of Christ, Jesus said He would build His Church on the Rock. Not churcheS. Jesus explicitly created One Church as a fulfillment of the Law of the Old Testament. Man created thousands more - 1500 years later. Church history and documentation will tell you that the Church at Corinth worshipped God one way - and the Church at Smyrna worshipped God the very same way. The Church at Rome - and the Church at Jerusalem…all the same. In what way did they worship? And why?

In the BC era, Jews worshipped God in the Temple and in the Synagogue. Temple worship centered on the offering of sacrifices. Synagogue worship centered on reading, preaching the Word, singing the Psalms, and the offering of Benedictions. Since God is a God of Order and Design, He instructed Jews in the first 5 books of the Bible how BEST to worship HIM. Christ, being the PERFECT Levitical High Priest, and to pass this fulfilled Levitical priesthood on, instructed His Apostles in the construct of the Passover meal at the Last Supper. The Passover meal was itself a Jewish custom. If those customs no longer mattered why wasn’t the Last Supper celebrated on some random day? Because…this was to be done to not ONLY remember Him. The fulfillment of the Law becomes more apparent and the very fact He celebrates on Passover this NEW and perfect sacrifice was to solidify to all future disciples…that Christ was the Perfect Sacrifice and this fulfilling of the Law was not to be questioned. It was how sacrifice was to be offered until the end of time. This is foreshadowed by the Old Testament prophet who says - “From the rising of the sun to the setting thereof, a spotless sacrifice shall be offered.” As well, Melchisedek offered bread and wine in thanksgiving in the Old Testament…a foreshadowing of Christ’s offering. Another foreshadowing…Abraham escorting his son Isaac to be sacrificed. His OWN SON! Isaac asked Abraham where the sacrifice was…to which Abraham replied, “God Himself will provide the Lamb.” And God did then…and has now given us HIS OWN SON to this very day. Bread and wine STILL becomes the Body and Blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

There are elements in scripture that must be in place to consider it worship as instructed by God. Throughout the Old Testament the elements are seen - and carried into the New Testament it is perfected and fulfilled by the High Priest, Christ Himself.

The Bible is evidence that God is a God of Order and Design and a Good Father who desires that the salvation of man be HIS idea and in HIS way - and not mans!

God bless you,
luke1_28

 

[Zundrah]

I am sad about it, too. But, alas, I cannot help you. That is up to God. Catholics can only present the Truth as revealed by God’s Word, but your acceptance of it is a matter of grace, wisdom, humility…

… I will always remember what I felt in the Catholic Church even if I never feel that presence again.

Zundrah,
I will pray for you.
Can you perhaps start a thread with your doubts? Perhaps someone can give you some help.

Peace
James

If I start a new thread on this I would have nothing but abuse hurled at me. People calling me a troll, saying that I am unsencere and much much more… It has happened before.

 

[PJM]

Heretics, the lot of them. Even the RCC!

God bless you. thanks for sharing.

What changed your mind?

Love and prayers,

 

[PRmerger]

… I will always remember what I felt in the Catholic Church even if I never feel that presence again

Zundrah, dearheart, if you are looking for a church that gives you a good feeling, you will never be satisfied in your search.

Find the Church that teaches God’s Word, that does not edit it to satisfy someone’s emotions.

I remember hearing a talk by a priest, Fr. Don Calloway (I think?), who was a drug user and in rehab many times before converting to Catholicism and becoming a priest. He was, initially after his conversion, on fire and on a spiritual high. Then, God removed this spiritual consolation he was receiving, as if to say, “Don, do you love ME, or do you love this good feeling that you feel right now?”

God wants us to love HIM, not the cushy warm and cuddly feeling we may feel when we’re in a church among cushy warm and cuddly believers.

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah, dearheart, if you are looking for a church that gives you a good feeling, you will never be satisfied in your search.

Find the Church that teaches God’s Word, that does not edit it to satisfy someone’s emotions.

I remember hearing a talk by a priest, Fr. Don Calloway (I think?), who was a drug user and in rehab many times before converting to Catholicism and becoming a priest. He was, initially after his conversion, on fire and on a spiritual high. Then, God removed this spiritual consolation he was receiving, as if to say, “Don, do you love ME, or do you love this good feeling that you feel right now?”

God wants us to love HIM, not the cushy warm and cuddly feeling we may feel when we’re in a church among cushy warm and cuddly believers.

I am just so confused about it though…

 

[Zundrah]

God bless you. thanks for sharing.

What changed your mind?

Love and prayers,

This;

I was taking RCIA but my college evening classes over run it and I couldn’t go to RCIA anymore… I thought to my self, this Eucharist can’t possibly be part and parcel of my salvation, can it? If I can’t take it now? I have to wait a whole year again! What if I die before comfirmation? I won’t be raised on the last day? That can’t be true…