Protestants, how can this be possible?

[jmcrae]

This is sort of like what happens if I get 100% on a test in college. This does not mean that I am guaranteed getting 100% every time I take a test.

A Church Council is nothing at all like taking a test. First, the Council has every document and every Tradition available to it, to look at, to ponder, to study. Second, only the most well-educated Christians in the whole world are allowed to vote. They go on for as long as they need to, and they discern, and read, and study the whole time. It’s not like just suddenly they get together and decide, “Hey, the moon is made of green cheese” without going into it from absolutely every angle and point of view. Plus, they study every previous Council, to make sure that they don’t contradict anything that came out of a previous Council. And, even more importantly, they constantly pray and pray and pray.

 

[JRKH]

Is this from a catechism? Which one? I have the second edition , Pope John Paul. Where is this in my one?

Yes it is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. click on **this link **for an online, searchable catechism.
The link above takes you right to these paragraphs. Scroll around to read more and scroll to the bottom for a search feature and naviagtion buttons. I use this one a lot.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

Attack mode? No way. If I went into attack mode with that post, I would have to check out to see if I had panties on because it was most certainly weak.

As a mother of 4 daughters I just want to say that I am mildly offended that a reference to “wearing panties” that is, being a female, is an indicator of weakness!

And…
Someone else on another thread said of someone’s argument, “If this was baseball I’d say you swing like a girl!” Hey! I’m a girl and I have 4 girls and we all swing our bats like girls, and you boys wish you could swing like us!

Now, lest you think I’m a feminist-fanatic, I will say that I went to a Catholic all-women’s college and for a brief period of time I bought into the “inclusive language” thing and even was mildly pleased when a nun who said the blessing at my wedding reception opened the prayer with, “Father-Mother God…”

Now, I reject that feminist nonsense, but I do still take offense when I hear a dad tell his son, “You’re playing like a girl!” As if! Playing like a girl, or fighting like a girl, or acting like a girl should NOT be a put-down, even if you’re a boy.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve been beaten up and left for dead by the princes and principalities of this world. I’ve lived in dark places. I was about ready to throw in the towel on my Catholic faith. However deep prayer and personal reflection has revealed things to me about my personal relationship with God as Father because of who I am…a child of God who is also a recovering alcoholic. I stopped going to AA meetings daily and replaced it with weekly counseling, frequent confession, but most importantly - daily Mass. This formula, I would guarantee would work for anyone struggling with ANYTHING. Have I been saved? NO. I am BEING saved. Christ saves me daily…through the Sacrifice of the Mass…and not just once. There’s only one Church where I can be GUARANTEED salvation if I follow Christ in that Church…and there IS JUST ONE!

That True Church exists - identified by 4 marks - One, Holy, Catholic a.k.a. Universal, and Apostolic. Google One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - and you will see Catholic Church. But more striking to me is the visual evidence because it has some amazing characteristics too that clearly identify it as being undeniably the Church that Christ founded and is the fulfillment of the faith of Our Father. You can see the continuity of the faith practices of the Chosen People from the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New Testament by the adopted children of God in Christ. The altar did not just disappear - the priesthood did not vanish - the sacrifice didn’t stop - the tabernacle wasn’t removed. Why not? Because Jesus was a Jew - most of the disciples were Jewish and all the Apostles were. He came to make all things new NOT DIFFERENT. He came to fulfil the Law, NOT ABOLISH it. Therefore, being that everything Jesus says is True, Jesus fulfils the Law and does not abolish it because He threaded the faith of His Father into the New Testament Church and that Church is the Church that you can see at any Catholic Mass today. The altar is there, the priest, the Sacrifice, the tabernacle. It is the Old Testament faith in God the Father fulfilled and perfected by the Son. Because Christ Himself said “I come to make all things new.” The Old Testament faith had become worn and heartless. Christ didn’t intend to make it different - He gave Life where there was death. He gave Life to the Altar of Sacrifice because He is the Living Sacrifice that we consume. The Old Testament altar of dead bloody sacrifice was renewed by the altar of living spotless sacrifice in the New Testament. Jesus did what He said He would do and it’s visible in His True Church.

This is also evidence to me that IT MATTERS. Can they not understand that in the True Church will be elements of faith practices found from the Old Testament? It can’t possibly be just preaching from scripture and prayer and songs and meditative pictures from an LCD Projector. There MUST be a PRIEST from the line of the Levitical priesthood. There MUST be an ALTAR for sacrifice. And there MUST be a VICTIM for the sacrifice. Not just once a month, four times a year, or at Easter. The true worship of God - because our Church didn’t just start in the New Testament, will be marked by those elements EVERY day. Because from the “Rising of the Sun, to the setting thereof, a spotless sacrifice is offered” as the prophet proclaims. At every single Catholic Mass, the true worship of God found in the Old Testament is fulfilled and perfected in its celebration. Protestants claim the fact that they know the Bible better than Catholics. If they would stoop to set foot in Catholic Mass, they would see the continuity and if they understood scripture like they say they do, there would be enough VISUAL evidence to know that Christ indeed did begin just ONE CHURCH! …IF they were given the eyes of Faith through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The ancient traditions from the God given faith of the Old Testament are made new and fulfilled in the New Testament. Even some of the prayers of the Old Testament are uttered by the priest and perfected by the Sacrifice on the Altar as our prayers rise like incense before the Father. It isn’t about how it makes you feel - it’s about what it does. It saves man by the Sacrifice offered. It gives man Life by consuming the Sacrifice. No other Church follows the directive uttered 2000 years ago “Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood, you cannot have My Life within you” more completely than the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I hear that all the time from the pastor across the street about how the service made him feel. “You could feel the Presence there today.” Wait? You don’t KNOW the Presence was there? What about days where you didn’t feel the Presence? ITS NOT ABOUT HOW IT MAKES YOU FEEL. ITS ABOUT WHAT IT DOES. When ANY Catholic hears the words Christ spoke coming from the lips of the priest: “Take this and eat, this is My Body…Take this and drink, this is the cup of My Blood” then they KNOW that Christ is perfectly present in His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. We don’t have to feel anything - or use our feelings to monitor anything. We have faith - faith in the power of the priest given to him by Christ through apostolic succession and priests have the power to bring Christ down on the altar to become that Living Sacrifice…

And the concrete evidence is there in that Mass and in the words of Christ Himself, of a True Church that HE - not some MAN - started. It is scattered through the whole Bible. Because when you read the Bible in context - and consume it as the whole that it is…it stands out like a sore thumb in Scripture and in the evidence that every Catholic Mass presents to the world every day…The Living Sacrifice.

God bless you,
luke1_28

Thank you for sharing your story, Luke. You have touched many, I’m sure.

 

[luke1_28]

As a mother of 4 daughters I just want to say that I am mildly offended that a reference to “wearing panties” that is, being a female, is an indicator of weakness!

And…
Someone else on another thread said of someone’s argument, “If this was baseball I’d say you swing like a girl!” Hey! I’m a girl and I have 4 girls and we all swing our bats like girls, and you boys wish you could swing like us!

Now, lest you think I’m a feminist-fanatic, I will say that I went to a Catholic all-women’s college and for a brief period of time I bought into the “inclusive language” thing and even was mildly pleased when a nun who said the blessing at my wedding reception opened the prayer with, “Father-Mother God…”

Now, I reject that feminist nonsense, but I do still take offense when I hear a dad tell his son, “You’re playing like a girl!” As if! Playing like a girl, or fighting like a girl, or acting like a girl should NOT be a put-down, even if you’re a boy.

Fine…but I wasn’t wearing panties

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I’ve been beaten up and left for dead by the princes and principalities of this world. I’ve lived in dark places. I was about ready to throw in the towel on my Catholic faith. However deep prayer and personal reflection has revealed things to me about my personal relationship with God as Father because of who I am…a child of God who is also a recovering alcoholic. I stopped going to AA meetings daily and replaced it with weekly counseling, frequent confession, but most importantly - daily Mass. This formula, I would guarantee would work for anyone struggling with ANYTHING. Have I been saved? NO. I am BEING saved. Christ saves me daily…through the Sacrifice of the Mass…and not just once. There’s only one Church where I can be GUARANTEED salvation if I follow Christ in that Church…and there IS JUST ONE!

That True Church exists - identified by 4 marks - One, Holy, Catholic a.k.a. Universal, and Apostolic. Google One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - and you will see Catholic Church. But more striking to me is the visual evidence because it has some amazing characteristics too that clearly identify it as being undeniably the Church that Christ founded and is the fulfillment of the faith of Our Father. You can see the continuity of the faith practices of the Chosen People from the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New Testament by the adopted children of God in Christ. The altar did not just disappear - the priesthood did not vanish - the sacrifice didn’t stop - the tabernacle wasn’t removed. Why not? Because Jesus was a Jew - most of the disciples were Jewish and all the Apostles were. He came to make all things new NOT DIFFERENT. He came to fulfil the Law, NOT ABOLISH it. Therefore, being that everything Jesus says is True, Jesus fulfils the Law and does not abolish it because He threaded the faith of His Father into the New Testament Church and that Church is the Church that you can see at any Catholic Mass today. The altar is there, the priest, the Sacrifice, the tabernacle. It is the Old Testament faith in God the Father fulfilled and perfected by the Son. Because Christ Himself said “I come to make all things new.” The Old Testament faith had become worn and heartless. Christ didn’t intend to make it different - He gave Life where there was death. He gave Life to the Altar of Sacrifice because He is the Living Sacrifice that we consume. The Old Testament altar of dead bloody sacrifice was renewed by the altar of living spotless sacrifice in the New Testament. Jesus did what He said He would do and it’s visible in His True Church.

This is also evidence to me that IT MATTERS. Can they not understand that in the True Church will be elements of faith practices found from the Old Testament? It can’t possibly be just preaching from scripture and prayer and songs and meditative pictures from an LCD Projector. There MUST be a PRIEST from the line of the Levitical priesthood. There MUST be an ALTAR for sacrifice. And there MUST be a VICTIM for the sacrifice. Not just once a month, four times a year, or at Easter. The true worship of God - because our Church didn’t just start in the New Testament, will be marked by those elements EVERY day. Because from the “Rising of the Sun, to the setting thereof, a spotless sacrifice is offered” as the prophet proclaims. At every single Catholic Mass, the true worship of God found in the Old Testament is fulfilled and perfected in its celebration. Protestants claim the fact that they know the Bible better than Catholics. If they would stoop to set foot in Catholic Mass, they would see the continuity and if they understood scripture like they say they do, there would be enough VISUAL evidence to know that Christ indeed did begin just ONE CHURCH! …IF they were given the eyes of Faith through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The ancient traditions from the God given faith of the Old Testament are made new and fulfilled in the New Testament. Even some of the prayers of the Old Testament are uttered by the priest and perfected by the Sacrifice on the Altar as our prayers rise like incense before the Father. It isn’t about how it makes you feel - it’s about what it does. It saves man by the Sacrifice offered. It gives man Life by consuming the Sacrifice. No other Church follows the directive uttered 2000 years ago “Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood, you cannot have My Life within you” more completely than the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I hear that all the time from the pastor across the street about how the service made him feel. “You could feel the Presence there today.” Wait? You don’t KNOW the Presence was there? What about days where you didn’t feel the Presence? ITS NOT ABOUT HOW IT MAKES YOU FEEL. ITS ABOUT WHAT IT DOES. When ANY Catholic hears the words Christ spoke coming from the lips of the priest: “Take this and eat, this is My Body…Take this and drink, this is the cup of My Blood” then they KNOW that Christ is perfectly present in His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. We don’t have to feel anything - or use our feelings to monitor anything. We have faith - faith in the power of the priest given to him by Christ through apostolic succession and priests have the power to bring Christ down on the altar to become that Living Sacrifice…

And the concrete evidence is there in that Mass and in the words of Christ Himself, of a True Church that HE - not some MAN - started. It is scattered through the whole Bible. Because when you read the Bible in context - and consume it as the whole that it is…it stands out like a sore thumb in Scripture and in the evidence that every Catholic Mass presents to the world every day…The Living Sacrifice.

God bless you,
luke1_28

I love reading testimonies like this because they are so full of Love for God in the Eucharist. It seems that these deep relationships with God in the Eucharist develop when someone has had to struggle and suffer and I suspect that there is profound reason for that struggle and suffering.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I started to type a long narrative but it would have been boring reading so I killed it. Here is a much shorter version.

I am here because one day I plugged evangelical Catholic into google. This eventually got me on the web site of Dave Armstrong and later Jimy Akin and still later here. This introduced me to the concept of evangelicals turned Catholic turned Catholic apologist.

Oh and I have also watched a little EWTN. It is certainly superior to TBN, but that might be damning with faint praise.

And when encountering something new that challenges my thinking I like to approach it with an open mind but at the same time critically thinking.

Unlike some folks here who really need to take a relating to Protestants 101 course, these guys had an ability to present Catholicism in a light that while I still don’t believe that it is the one true church that it claims to be, I also do not believe that it is this evil false Christian religion some Protestants claim it is.

Why am I here. Oh probably because mostly I like to argue. But perhaps also because there is something good about your faith that can be a good influence to me. I’m really not open to changing churches (sorry to you evangelists out there) unless you can really convince me you are the one true church and the rest of us are inferior…which is a hardreal, , hard, sell…which I have deliberately made so. But at the same time, I am open to figuring out what it is in Catholicism that is good that I like which would be good for me.

BTW one thing that I do like is your Biblical moral theology that I agree with probably 95% (as opposed to liberal Protestants who took.400 years to devolve into gay marriage and pro abortion). One thing that is true for me anyway is that moral theology is perhaps … actually definitely … more important to me than the stuff that people argue about incessantly here.

There have been a few other areas where I think the positive influence of Catholicism has rubbed off on me. However this is getting to long as it is so I will end it. Maybe someday I will start a thread “What I like about Catholicism”.

As they used to say in NA… “keep coming it gets better”. LOL

I have to share something with you since I think I can relate to you more than you know.

I believe I am an open minded person who seeks truth in whatever form it takes and I use reason with an open mind to determine what is Truth.

After I became a Catholic a little over 10 years ago I started to read the Catechism. This was 5 years into being Catholic and I was presented with teachings that I did not agree with. My first 5 years were going to Mass on Easter and Christmas and then only when I felt like it. I did not do confession after my baptism and confirmation and did not feel a need to go. Yet I was living what I thought to be a good life.

Well… I started to question being Catholic about 6 years into being Catholic. My wife and I were attending a bible study at a friends house that was “Evangelical”. All the attendees were “Evangelical” with the exception of my wife and I. I would classify my wife (at that time) as a ignorant Catholic and myself as Catholic in name but still seeking. These bible studies opened up many questions as to what a Christian is. It also placed my wife on the defensive because much of it was anti-catholic. This period in our lives left both my wife and I questioning the Catholic Church and it’s teachings.

What happened is my wife and I questioned our Faith. We learned about a little book called the Catechism which we did not know about before. We starting reading the Catechism and then the Compendium to the Catechsim in conjunction with the Bible. This led me to a forum for further discussion at CF. At the Forum I became exposed to the Early Church Fathers and then to Catholics like Scott Hahn and Father John Corapi. Over several years over study and questioning my Faith grew and my knowledge increased. In the same process my heart and eyes were opened and I started to become more chaste. I had my eyes opened and started to see the Truth in all the things of the Catholic Church and could not deny them no matter how much I did previously because I saw God in them and I could not deny God. So began my real walk with Christ and the change of heart that I needed.

In Narcotics Anonymous we were told to keeping coming back. It was the fellowship with others, that struggle with the same fight that gave us strength to keep going and not give up. NA is built off of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) which was started by a Doctor named Bill or Bill W. Bill used Christian thinking to deal with his alcoholism. But in life we all share a similiar battle, that being the battle against evil and getting to Heaven. So “keep coming” because the longer you hang out here, the more you will have fellowship to fight the good fight.

 

[PJM]

=NotTooSmart;5742646]I have no evidence that Peter and Clement believed themselves incapable of being incorrect.

As far as the books in the Bible go, there is a big difference in being 100% correct and incapable of being incorrect.

To illustrate. I might create this post with absolutely no spelling errors (then again I might not who knows). If I do, then my post is 100% accurate (with respect to spelling anyway).

However, just because I create a post that is 100% defect free in spelling, it does not mean that I am incapable of being incorrect with respect to spelling.

In my personal campaign to get you past “not to smart” all the way up to “somewhat smart” I offer the following.

Infallibility is not a mere “human issue,” it is a Divine God inspired / God directed issue that applies only to all matters relating to [and onlt too] the issues of Faith and Morals. And even then there is a criteria to be met to insure “infallibility.”

In fallibility aside, Catholics are to give at least assent of will to all official Pontif Teachings and well as those from the Magisterium.

When and if a Pope declares a teaching “Infallible” they indeed know they [God and the Pope] are 100% correct. Christ Himself assures it:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

 

[Justy90]

In my personal campaign to get you past “not to smart” all the way up to “somewhat smart” I offer the following.

Infallibility is not a mere “human issue,” it is a Divine God inspired / God directed issue that applies only to all matters relating to [and onlt too] the issues of Faith and Morals. And even then there is a criteria to be met to insure “infallibility.”

 

[PRmerger]

Uhh, really? Who says that besides the Catholic church? The Scriptures don’t. Ancient Tradition surely doesn’t support it (Infallibility wasn’t made doctrine until 1896) so then how is it not totally fabricated by Catholicism?

Justy, don’t you see that you accept infalliblity when you accept the canon of Scripture? You really don’t think that the Church got it wrong when they included Jude in the canon of Scripture but not the Gospel of Thomas, right?

If so, then you believe that the Church made an infallible decision at one point in history.

Also, you also believe that *some *individuals have been infallible at some point in history when the inspired writers wrote the Scriptures, right?

It seems that you believe in the concept of infalliblity, but just don’t realize it!

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Years ago I joined the Catholic Church because I thought there would be unity in belief. It was quite a shock when I found out the diversity of belief that individual priests and brothers/sisters had. Many Catholics are small ‘p’ Protestants, that used to bother me but now I’m one myself. Follow your informed conscience, it’s the Catholic way.

 

[Justy90]

Justy, don’t you see that you accept infalliblity when you accept the canon of Scripture? You really don’t think that the Church got it wrong when they included Jude in the canon of Scripture but not the Gospel of Thomas, right?

If so, then you believe that the Church made an infallible decision at one point in history.

Also, you also believe that *some *individuals have been infallible at some point in history when the inspired writers wrote the Scriptures, right?

It seems that you believe in the concept of infalliblity, but just don’t realize it!

Not in sense of Catholic theology. The Early Church with the discernment of the Spirit put together Scripture. Rome didn’t do that on its own. Rome also proclaimed infallibility on its own for itself centuries after the Canon was produced. Infallibility? Yeah, from God but not from Rome.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Years ago I joined the Catholic Church because I thought there would be unity in belief. It was quite a shock when I found out the diversity of belief that individual priests and brothers/sisters had. Many Catholics are small ‘p’ Protestants, that used to bother me but now I’m one myself. Follow your informed conscience, it’s the Catholic way.

Absolutely false.

There is only one Catholic Faith.

You can choose to accept that Jesus started the Church and is protecting it from teaching error or you can reject it.

If you accept this truth, then you acknowledge that you are not free to determine the rules of faith and morality.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Not in sense of Catholic theology. The Early Church with the discernment of the Spirit put together Scripture. Rome didn’t do that on its own. Rome also proclaimed infallibility on its own for itself centuries after the Canon was produced. Infallibility? Yeah, from God but not from Rome.

Rome has nothing to do with infallibility.

Jesus promised to be with the Church until the end of time.

It doesn’t matter where the Church is based.

 

[Justy90]

Absolutely false.

There is only one Catholic Faith.

You can choose to accept that Jesus started the Church and is protecting it from teaching error or you can reject it.

If you accept this truth, then you acknowledge that you are not free to determine the rules of faith and morality.

What about the Orthodox?

 

[Justy90]

Rome has nothing to do with infallibility.

Jesus promised to be with the Church until the end of time.

It doesn’t matter where the Church is based.

typical protectionist answer. Rome broke away from that Church in 1054AD.

 

[PRmerger]

Years ago I joined the Catholic Church because I thought there would be unity in belief. It was quite a shock when I found out the diversity of belief that individual priests and brothers/sisters had. Many Catholics are small ‘p’ Protestants, that used to bother me but now I’m one myself. Follow your informed conscience, it’s the Catholic way.

So, Vimy, do you still believe that unity in belief is important? Or did you change your mind because, in your opinion, there is no unity in belief in the CC?

 

[PRmerger]

Not in sense of Catholic theology. The Early Church with the discernment of the Spirit put together Scripture. Rome didn’t do that on its own. Rome also proclaimed infallibility on its own for itself centuries after the Canon was produced. Infallibility? Yeah, from God but not from Rome.

You don’t think that St. Paul was writing about theology? What about Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

Of course they were! They spoke infallibly about issues of faith and morals, just like the Magisterium does today.

 

[PRmerger]

Yeah, from God but not from Rome.

Well, yes, of course, infalliblity is from God. The CC does not claim that Pope B16 speaks infallibly just 'cause he’s a man who wears a funny hat!

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Absolutely false.

There is only one Catholic Faith.

You can choose to accept that Jesus started the Church and is protecting it from teaching error or you can reject it.

If you accept this truth, then you acknowledge that you are not free to determine the rules of faith and morality.

There is a Roman Catholic Religion and it has changed. At one time the Church taught that only Roman Catholics could be saved, they don’t anymore.

So, Vimy, do you still believe that unity in belief is important? Or did you change your mind because, in your opinion, there is no unity in belief in the CC?

I no longer see belief as primary in Christianity. For the sake of tradition and some framework to the religion, it is useful. It would sound funny if we all said different creeds at the same time. The reality is that everyone follows their own conscience first and that is Catholic teaching anyways, right?