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PRmerger
Guest
Whatever. Either Orthodox or the CC–both teach the same doctrines and have the same liturgy and sacraments.
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PRmerger
Guest
Really? Do you have a source for what the RCC said before, and what it says now?
My understanding is that there is no salvation outside the Church. That’s what we taught before; that’s what we teach now.
From the CCC:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
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PRmerger
Guest
You ought to read the Catechism’s section on conscience to be an informed Catholic.
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Vimy_Ridge
Guest
I don’t know how to post links but if you look up the Sedavacantist site called Most Holy Family Monastery you can see all the changes that have been made in the RCC.
The Church was pretty clear that Protestants could not be saved.
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Vimy_Ridge
Guest
If you are aware of what the Church teaches and are not able to accept something it teaches in good conscience what would you do? I cannot believe in eternal torment for the lost, it’s cruel. Should I follow conscience or doctrine? What would you do in that situation?
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PRmerger
Guest
Let me put it to you this way: if you are aware of what Jesus teaches and are not able to accept something he teaches in good conscience, what would you do?
It would seem to me that if Jesus appeared in my living room and told me, PRmerger, it is wrong for you to divorce your husband and marry another, that I could not even conceive of telling him, “Well, Lord, I know that’s what you say, but I just can’t accept that it’s true.”
That, essentially, is what you are doing, Vimy. You are telling us that you know better than God.
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Vimy_Ridge
Guest
We cannot know for sure what Jesus taught. I respect that you believe the Church does know. C.S. Lewis said that Jesus did not come to teach a new morality but to remind us of what we already know to be right or wrong.Let me put it to you this way: if you are aware of what Jesus teaches and are not able to accept something he teaches in good conscience, what would you do?
It would seem to me that if Jesus appeared in my living room and told me, PRmerger, it is wrong for you to divorce your husband and marry another, that I could not even conceive of telling him, “Well, Lord, I know that’s what you say, but I just can’t accept that it’s true.”
That, essentially, is what you are doing, Vimy. You are telling us that you know better than God.
If you had a vision of Christ and He told you to wage war against heretics, what would you do? Would you wonder if it was Satan? Waging war against heretics was considered good at one time in the eyes of the Church. Now its not.
You can be wrong but if you go against your conscience, then you have sinned against God. Being wrong is not a sin.
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JacktheCatholic
Guest
False.
Who taught you this lie that the Catholic Church once taught only Roman Catholics could be saved?
**EDIT
Nevermind…
Propaganda… *sigh
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JacktheCatholic
Guest
I doubt Judas Iscariot would agree with you or Jesus.
Judas used your philosophy too.
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Vimy_Ridge
Guest
The first time I heard it was on a Sedavacantist site called** Most Holy Family Monastery **they quote popes and councils.
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Vimy_Ridge
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I’m sure Judas violated his conscience when he betrayed his master. He felt remorse and hung himself.
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PRmerger
Guest
Ok. I would hope, then, that you’ll be consistent never ever be in a conversation with someone and say, “Jesus said ________” or “Jesus wouldn’t ________” for, by your admission, you can’t know what he said.
That’s quite consistent with Catholic teaching, Vimy. Every morally sane person in the ancient near east already knew that one should feed the hungry. That’s not why Jesus came.
But that’s a different argument than what you were originally discussing.
That’s an ancient argument–started by the Greek Euthyphro. Are the gods moral because they command good? Or is something good because the gods command it?
You should look up what the Catholic church actually has to say about that. It’s quite a cogent and trenchant discussion.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
What about it. They are the first protestants, although they have kept the faith almost completely intact.
If you read the writings of the early patriarchs of eastern Catholicism you will see strong support for the primacy of Peter and the papacy.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Hmm…
St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)
Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope’s) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul … I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)
Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation …the new heresy. (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council]
, Mansi, 893)
John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)
The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren. (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)
St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828)
Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles. (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).
Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450)
A native of Antioch, Theodoret ruled under the Antiochean Patriarch.
The great foundation of the Church was shaken, and confirmed by the Divine grace. And the Lord commanded him to apply that same care to the brethren. ‘And thou,’ He says, ‘converted, confirm thy brethren.’ (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Haeret. Fab. lib. v.c. 28)
‘For as I,’ He says, ‘did not despise thee when tossed, so be thou a support to thy brethren in trouble, and the help by which thou was saved do thou thyself impart to others, and exhort them not while they are tottering, but raise them up in their peril. For this reason I suffer thee also to slip, but do not permit thee to fall, thus through thee gaining steadfastness for those who are tossed.’ So this great pillar supported the tossing and sinking world, and permitted it not to fall entirely and gave it back stability, having been ordered to feed God’s sheep. (Theodoret, Oratio de Caritate in J. P. Minge, ed., Partrologiae Curses Completus: Series Graeca).
I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds. (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).
If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives. (Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni)
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PRmerger
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I’m pretty sure you’ve got it wrong again, Vimy.
The Church has always waged war against heresy. As it should.
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PRmerger
Guest
I find it interesting that you are more “sure” about Judas and what was in his conscience than you are about Jesus and his teachings.
If, as you say,“we cannot know for sure what Jesus taught”–that the Church could have gotten it wrong–then why do you trust the Church to say that Judas hung himself?
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sbrueck
Guest
Jesus wants to " marry us", to become one with us !!!
I am always amazed what people take literally and what not!
when Jesus said “truly, truly” or “amen, amen, I say to you…” he was very serious!
When He says he gets into the bread, He has the power! to do so. where is your faith???
this is exactly what faith is, you have to “understand” with your heart!
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sbrueck
Guest
to love everybody- is the highest comentment of Christ. Look at mother Teresa- she loved EVERYBODY.
Butnext to that, Jesus gave us very clear instructions how to live. One of them is to LISTEN to HIS CHURCH.
If He had intended over 30.000 ,all with different interpretations,aaah, the Holy Spirit must be very confused ! He would have said " I will build churches…
He didn’t leave us a book, called BIBLE, but ONE Church. The first Magestirium ( teaching office) where His 12 Apostles. " whoever listens yo YOU, listens to ME.
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sbrueck
Guest
If you are a BIBLE believing Christian, then why don’t you believe in it. the Bible NOWHERE CLAIMS to be the pillar of truth. the Bible teaches " the Church is the pillar of truth".2.Tim.That number of denominations is large. But 30,000 is likely just as inflated as the 100,000,000 christians tortured and killed on the orders of catholic church authorities during the inquisition.
While the Catholic Church is the largest. The number of protestant denominations, does not prove that the catholic church is correct.
yes- christians killed each other, horrible! but it went both ways! look what happend after king Henry the 8th split from the Cath. Church, just to kill and divorce his numerous wifes? and under queen Elisabeth???
truth is truth. are there many mistakes made by people? YES! the Churches teachings never changed and will not, b/c it’s set up by our Lord. If you don’t like it , complain to Him.
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Vimy_Ridge
Guest
In the past it was done in a brutal and violent manner. That was wrong. Now we debate with words, that is the difference. Torturing “heretics” was wrong but the inquisitors believed if the “heretic” did not accept Catholic teaching they would go to hell, it was misguided “love”
I meant that according to scripture, according to the story, this is what Judas did. Did Judas really do this? Was there a Judas? I don’t know, I was not there.I find it interesting that you are more “sure” about Judas and what was in his conscience than you are about Jesus and his teachings.
If, as you say,“we cannot know for sure what Jesus taught”–that the Church could have gotten it wrong–then why do you trust the Church to say that Judas hung himself?
Someone said that I thought like Judas, but my point was that according to the story Judas knew that betraying Jesus was a sin.
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