Protestants, how can this be possible?

[JacktheCatholic]

In the past it was done in a brutal and violent manner. That was wrong. Now we debate with words, that is the difference. Torturing “heretics” was wrong but the inquisitors believed if the “heretic” did not accept Catholic teaching they would go to hell, it was misguided “love”

You will find that during these times the Catholic Church was the place those being accused of herecy chose to go because the Catholic Church did not kill or torture. It was the authorites in the kingdoms that chose methods of torture and killing. This is not so different than today when a man waits on death row.

I know that if you took any of these stories you have heard about the Catholic Church and addressed it here in a thread that you would be provided with much support against what you have been told about any evil of the Catholic Church. There are many propaganda sites on the web with the sole intention of discrediting the Catholic Church and they are more than willing to tells lies to reach that desired effect.

Try posting some threads addressing such claims and see the responses you receive and remember to be open minded and reasonable.

I meant that according to scripture, according to the story, this is what Judas did. Did Judas really do this? Was there a Judas? I don’t know, I was not there.

Someone said that I thought like Judas, but my point was that according to the story Judas knew that betraying Jesus was a sin.

We do not know Judas Iscariots mind and heart except they guided him to Hell. It is a person’s mind and heart that make their conscious and if that conscious is not fully developed in Christ then it can and will misguide them. That is my point and where you are wrong previously.

 

[PRmerger]

Now we debate with words, that is the difference.

Indeed, we do debate with words–for even a change in grammatical form can change a sentence’s meaning critically.

You really don’t see the difference between “the church is at war with homosexuality” and “the church is at war with homosexuals”?

Someone said that I thought like Judas, but my point was that according to the story Judas knew that betraying Jesus was a sin.

That is a reasonable enough clarification.

I’m just saying, Vimy, that you’re going to be at a real disadvantage on the CAF holding the position you hold–if you truly believe that we can’t know for certain what God has revealed. You ought never ever write, “God wouldn’t want us to torture heretics” or “Didn’t God say to love everyone, even homosexuals” because, by your own proposition, you have no idea if it’s true or not.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

When a thread goes 50+ pages I often like to see if, and more likely how far, it has strayed from the original post and the comment or question contained therein:

Statistics show the number of Protestant secs at well in excess of 30,000!

I am befuddled, confused, bewildered how this can be a fact [a rapidly growing fact] and yet it does not seem to register with non-Catholics that something is obviously wrong.

I am very sincere in not being able to comprehend the lack of concern that seems to indicate that this is fine, it’s somehow God’s Will. There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?

I have been faithfully answeing your questions for more more than a year. Help me out here

Love and prayers,
Pat

PJM, you initially asked for enlightenment. I’m assuming that you were seeking enlightenment into how it is that protestants thought. Now, as usual this thread has become just one more of those in which Catholics and Protestants tell one another how screwed up they are. My question to you is, before the thread deteriorated into what it has become come, did you receive the enlightenment you had been requestion?

(Trusting your post was not just a ruse, but a serious search for enlightenment and understanding – i.e., that you were willing to listen.)

 

[PJM]

Justly90

Uhh, really? Who says that besides the Catholic church? The Scriptures don’t. Ancient Tradition surely doesn’t support it (Infallibility wasn’t made doctrine until 1896) so then how is it not totally fabricated by Catholicism?
Love and prayers,

Hi friend, I notice your new to the Forum. WELCOME!

You may have missed my explaination on how an issue gets to be Dogmatically Defined?

This is the usual process.

1. A Common understanding held by many within the Church
2. It becomes a part of “Sacred Tradition”
3. It is Defined as a belief to be held as a Catholic Church Doctrine
4. It is Dogmatically and Infallibly defined ans as such has the power and assent of God Himself in its TRUTH!

This process can take hundreds, even many hundreds of years from belief of many to being an infallible proclaimation. Belief by all.

Now as for a basis for this; it is clearly Biblical.

]Mark 3: 13 “And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

**Mt. 28: 18 **“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

*2 Cor. 13: “8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.”

John 8: 31”Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
**
Gal. 2: “5* to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.”

**John 14: 16 ** And I [JESUS] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

John 17: 14 I [JESUS] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

One should futher note that as the bible had been “completely written by the end of the First Century” and was the only Christian Church at the time, that these words and actions fo Christ, HAD TO BE speciffically for His One Catholic Church! [Mt. 16:15-19.]

Now you know the truth friend, Catholic teaching need not be “infalliblely pronounced” to make it the single truth on the issue. The Holy Spirit, God Himself gives His assurance of the single TRUTH of all Offical Catholic Teaching By the Pope, and the Magisterium with the Pope.

Love and prayers,

 

[jmcrae]

Not in sense of Catholic theology. The Early Church with the discernment of the Spirit put together Scripture. Rome didn’t do that on its own. Rome also proclaimed infallibility on its own for itself centuries after the Canon was produced. Infallibility? Yeah, from God but not from Rome.

What do you think Infallibility is? It isn’t just the Pope making random proclamations all by himself. There is a process to it, just as there was a process to it when the Pope declared the Canon of the New Testament in 405 AD, and when he declared the Divinity of Christ in 431 AD. It’s always been exactly the same process - it’s just that, now, it has a name.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Simply reply, God decided to abandon the Roman Catholic Church as a denomination and is now turning on the denominations in general for a new model of practice. Simple Churches and Home Churches for examples of the new movement.

Not likely you will reply, how often did He allow harm to the Jewish People in the OT for going astray? You not suddenly think He can’t pass judgements after the NT - God is God we play by His rules not ours. If He decides to rip away His support He can. And can pour it out on others.

 

[PJM]

=Grace Seeker;5752514]When a thread goes 50+ pages I often like to see if, and more likely how far, it has strayed from the original post and the comment or question contained therein:

PJM, you initially asked for enlightenment. I’m assuming that you were seeking enlightenment into how it is that protestants thought. Now, as usual this thread has become just one more of those in which Catholics and Protestants tell one another how screwed up they are. My question to you is, before the thread deteriorated into what it has become come, did you receive the enlightenment you had been requestion?

(Trusting your post was not just a ruse, but a serious search for enlightenment and understanding – i.e., that you were willing to listen.)

NO! And sincere thanks for asking.

My point of confusion steems from my belief that the Bible is and has to be THE truth [yes I am aware that it may not always be facture] but no one verse can / may contradict another verse. Should this seem to happen, it is a matter of lack of understanding on those advocating such a position.

Catholic and Protestant Bible both quote 2 Tim. 3:16 and the fact the the entire Bible is Divinely Inspired. Such being the case I am deeply perplexed by the fact that Protestants dispite saying they are in agreement with this statement, have a Bible that is…

By many hundreds of years newer than the Catholic Bible

Seemingly ignores the issue of Divine Inspiration by removing Seven entire Books [yes I do know the history] but either the Bible is True or it is NOT true. It can’t be both. Additionally a large number of verses have been changed to accomidate the new found beliefs.

If the Bible is Divinely Inspired, which I am inclined to believe, how; and on what authority were these changes made:shrug:

What is it that I’m not understanding?

Love and prayers,

 

[jmcrae]

Simply reply, God decided to abandon the Roman Catholic Church as a denomination and is now turning on the denominations in general for a new model of practice. Simple Churches and Home Churches for examples of the new movement.

Not likely you will reply, how often did He allow harm to the Jewish People in the OT for going astray? You not suddenly think He can’t pass judgements after the NT - God is God we play by His rules not ours. If He decides to rip away His support He can. And can pour it out on others.

When God brought in new Covenants, there were always miracles associated with them.

When God brought in the Catholic Covenant, He sent His only Son the second Person of the Trinity, to be a human being named Jesus. Jesus did many, many miraculous signs, including raising people from the dead, feeding thousands of people with a small amount of food, walking on water, curing various illnesses, etc., topping it off by raising Himself from the dead, and ascending bodily into Heaven.

Tell me, what miracles accompany the Protestant Reformation, to show us that God has rescinded the Catholic Covenant, and replaced it with a Protestant Covenant?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Tell me, what miracles accompany the Protestant Reformation, to show us that God has rescinded the Catholic Covenant, and replaced it with a Protestant Covenant?

Crickets

 

[luke1_28]

I don’t know what PJM has gathered, but I have concluded this:

The biggest offense in the sin of denying the Church is the disobeying of Christ Himself. They deny and disobey Christ Himself because they think Christ didn’t define a Church, so as a result, there is no Apostolic Succesion. If there is no Apostolic Succession, there is no ordained priesthood. Therefore since there is no ordained priesthood, there is no Sacrifice of the Altar. And all of that denial of the Church puts them in very real danger of disobeying Christ Himself when it comes to one of the most dramatic and concretely clear directives Christ gave: “Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood, you cannot have My Life within you.”

Please pray to the Holy Spirit and read the scripture proofs at this link:
scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

I feel really bad for you seperated brethren because you won’t let God fully love you as much as He wants to through His Son. The act of love where God loved us enough to become one of us in flesh and blood to live, die, and rise for us required Sacrifice of Himself to do so. However, just as in John 6, many of you have turned away when Christ describes that it isn’t finished until WE take on God’s flesh and blood to live, die and rise for Him which takes a sacrifice of OURSELVES to do so. Can you not see the covenant oath in this? God receives our flesh - we must receive Christ’s flesh to fulfill the covenant oath. If you aren’t receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, this is breaking the New Covenant that He has established. - but Christ didn’t go chasing those in John 6 down to clarify it because He cannot change what God the Father required from man if they were to claim Christ as their Lord and Savior.

The Word of God in the Old Testament prepared the way for the reception of The Word Made Flesh in the New Testament. The priesthood, the altar, the Victim, and the Sacrifice were there in the Old Testament - they are still there but perfected in the New Testament, and still to this day celebrated by the ONLY Church backed by the evidence of it’s power to perform this essential Rite in man’s salvation.

The parallels between the disciples of John 6 who walked away and protestantism today cannot be overlooked. The protestants have the same selective hearing. It was Christ’s directive for those disciples to eat His Body and drink His Blood. It was Christ’s directive after His death to offer His Body and Blood through His Church in which He commands His APOSTLES to consecrate the bread and wine at the Last Supper - to “Do this in memory of Me.”. But because it’s too hard for protestants to hear it must come from ‘that church’ - they walk away.

YOU TURN AWAY FROM THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST because you turn away from the ONLY Church that has the power to give it to the world! Christ commands you to do this, yet you do not obey and walk away, breaking His heart because it’s ‘that church’ that gives it to you.

The chaos of letting your feelings be your compass especially when it comes to the things of God causes the loss of the fullness of the Truth (The Word of God as taught by the Church AND the Word made Flesh as given by the Church). Protestantism bases much of it’s conviction on feelings. If you don’t ‘feel’ inspired by one pastor, you’ll go try to ‘feel’ that way from another. If you can’t ‘feel’ the Spirit from one Church - you might ‘feel’ inspired to start your own. Alot is decided by ‘feeling’ but not much by ‘knowing’. That is chaos.

Behind the logic and prayer for the One Church that Christ founded and prayed for in John 17 is the desire for all God’s children to be united to avoid chaos and disobedience itself…(I cannot possibly cut and paste all this from scripturecatholic.com and expect to remain in the character limit so I welcome you to browse here):

scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html
scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html
scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

God bless you - please come Home and receive God as much as God has received you,

luke1_28

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

You will find that during these times the Catholic Church was the place those being accused of herecy chose to go because the Catholic Church did not kill or torture. It was the authorites in the kingdoms that chose methods of torture and killing. This is not so different than today when a man waits on death row.

I know that if you took any of these stories you have heard about the Catholic Church and addressed it here in a thread that you would be provided with much support against what you have been told about any evil of the Catholic Church. There are many propaganda sites on the web with the sole intention of discrediting the Catholic Church and they are more than willing to tells lies to reach that desired effect.

Try posting some threads addressing such claims and see the responses you receive and remember to be open minded and reasonable.

I understand that the inquisitions were rooted in mixing of the Church and State. When I joined the RCC it was never denied that the Church was involved in horrible things though. My instructors in RCIA said it happened and it was wrong. Protestants have done horrible things too.

My main concern is that most modern Catholics in the post Vatican II RCC do not know that the old RCC never considered Protestants as “seperated bretheren” they used to be “hellbound heretics” and it was that attitude that led to things like the Inquisition. Before V2 it was a mortal sin to even go to a Non-Catholic service.

The RCC has changed for the better i think, but let’s understand it is not the same old Church it once was. The last few popes would be considered Liberal Protestants (not a bad thing) in comparison to the old RCC pontiffs.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Vimy,

The people change but the Catholic Church is still the same.

As a Protestant I understand how the people are the church but as a Catholic that is not the same. Protstants seem to believe in an ever changing church where they can take a vote and change according to popular opinion. In Catholicism it is unchanging even if 90% want it otherwise. There is a wide gap because of this.

All we have to do is follow Protestantism from John Calvin and Martin Luther (the Real Presense) to today to see how Protetestanism is a testiment to ever change and division from change where people mass together based on opinionated common beliefs. Examples of today include gay marriage and women priests.

In Catholicism opinions amount to next to nothing because there is something greater then self and so it must be in accord with Tradition or it is not possible. King Henry VIII could atest to that I think, both before and after his Act of Supremacy.

 

[jmcrae]

My main concern is that most modern Catholics in the post Vatican II RCC do not know that the old RCC never considered Protestants as “seperated bretheren” they used to be “hellbound heretics” and it was that attitude that led to things like the Inquisition. Before V2 it was a mortal sin to even go to a Non-Catholic service.

There was a time when Protestants knew exactly what they were doing, and were intentionally separated from the Catholic Church. Most modern day Protestants have no idea what the Catholic Church even is. They cannot be charged with the same crimes as their ancestors.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Libertarian_FL
Simply reply, God decided to abandon the Roman Catholic Church as a denomination and is now turning on the denominations in general for a new model of practice. Simple Churches and Home Churches for examples of the new movement.

Not likely you will reply, how often did He allow harm to the Jewish People in the OT for going astray? You not suddenly think He can’t pass judgements after the NT - God is God we play by His rules not ours. If He decides to rip away His support He can. And can pour it out on others.

My dear friend in Christ, either you are wrong or the bible is wrong. God tells us the bible is true and the Divinely Inspired Words and teachings of God Himself; therfore friend, we must concluse that you are wrong.

But please don’t take my word for it…

Please keep in mind that when you read these passages that not only are they the inspired word of God, but as there was only One Church when the bible was completely written around the end of the First Century that it was written to apply is a specific and non-arbitary way with Catholics and the Catholic Church,as there were no other churches at the time.
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

**Mark 3: 13 **“And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom **you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Mt. 28: 18** “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age
.”*

**1 Tim. 3:15 ** “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, [SINGULAR] the pillar [SINGULAR] and bulwark of the truth. [SINGULAR] Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion:”

**Mt. 16: 15 ** He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [SINGULAR] tell you, you are Peter,[SINGULAR] and on this rock [SINGULAR] I will build my [SINGULAR] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. SINGULAR] 19 I [God SINGULAR] will give you [SINGULAR] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [SINGULAR] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you [SINGULAR] loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 4: 4 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord,[One God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

********Gal. 2: “5 *****to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.”
**
John 14: 16 **And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you

John 16: “12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. “

John 17: 14 I [JESUS] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. Notice please the very personal guarentee of you being WRONG!

You should not listen to rumors!
Love and prayers friend,
**

 

[PJM]

=jmcrae-There was a time when Protestants knew exactly what they were doing, and were intentionally separated from the Catholic Church. Most modern day Protestants have no idea what the Catholic Church even is. They cannot be charged with the same crimes as their ancestors.

Not only is this valid and true, but it goes along ways in explaining why and how Jesus is able to use folks like the Grahams and Dr. James D:thumbsupbson so effectively in the present times.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

There was a time when Protestants knew exactly what they were doing, and were intentionally separated from the Catholic Church. Most modern day Protestants have no idea what the Catholic Church even is. They cannot be charged with the same crimes as their ancestors.

Are you saying that they did not leave in good conscience? I think many did. In the end we are not saved by doctrine, dogma, belief in the bible or institutions. We are only saved by grace.

The Church and the Bible point to God but neither are God. I’ve been both a Protestant and a Catholic and I know how quickly we can turn either the Bible or the Church into idols.

 

[jmcrae]

Are you saying that they did not leave in good conscience?

Short answer, no - I don’t think so. I look at the burned-down monasteries and the broken statues of the Apostles, and it seems to me like the destruction was quite deliberate, and intended to send a specific message that “we no longer wish to be associated with the Church that Christ gave to the Apostles.” They knew exactly what they were rejecting.

I think many did.

Which ones?

In the end we are not saved by doctrine, dogma, belief in the bible or institutions. We are only saved by grace.

Right. But sound doctrine, a firm standard of beliefs, the Scriptures, and all these things open the way to grace. Can a person receive grace even without these things? No doubt they can, at God’s good pleasure. But it is not the usual way.

 

[tmac1956]

Simply reply, God decided to abandon the Roman Catholic Church as a denomination and is now turning on the denominations in general for a new model of practice. Simple Churches and Home Churches for examples of the new movement.

Not likely you will reply, how often did He allow harm to the Jewish People in the OT for going astray? You not suddenly think He can’t pass judgements after the NT - God is God we play by His rules not ours. If He decides to rip away His support He can. And can pour it out on others.

As revealed to the infallible Prophet of God, Thomas Kolter. Absolute rubbish!

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Short answer, no - I don’t think so. I look at the burned-down monasteries and the broken statues of the Apostles, and it seems to me like the destruction was quite deliberate, and intended to send a specific message that “we no longer wish to be associated with the Church that Christ gave to the Apostles.” They knew exactly what they were rejecting.

Which ones?

Right. But sound doctrine, a firm standard of beliefs, the Scriptures, and all these things open the way to grace. Can a person receive grace even without these things? No doubt they can, at God’s good pleasure. But it is not the usual way.

These are good answers. Is it not true that the Church used to teach that only Roman Catholics could be saved though. Aside from Protestants, surely the Church did not believe Non-Christians could be saved. What else could the doctrine of no salvation outside the Catholic Church mean?

 

[Natassia]

Statistics show the number of Protestant secs at well in excess of 30,000!

I am befuddled, confused, bewildered how this can be a fact [a rapidly growing fact] and yet it does not seem to register with non-Catholics that something is obviously wrong.

I am very sincere in not being able to comprehend the lack of concern that seems to indicate that this is fine, it’s somehow God’s Will. There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?

I have been faithfully answeing your questions for more more than a year. Help me out here

Love and prayers,
Pat

Hi Pat.

I was never aware that I had to belong to a sect at all. Although I do not call myself a “Protestant” (I prefer to avoid unnecessary labels), I have a feeling that most Catholics would consider me one. I am not a member of any church or affiliated with any particular group. I do, however, believe that I am a Christian and that is really all that matters.

Since it is the Holy Spirit that ultimately gives us discernment and it is through Christ that we receive the Holy Spirit, it seems to me that theogical debates such as Protestant vs. Catholic and Baptist vs. Evangelical vs. Lutheran, etc. do not really matter. They do not define what is a “Christian.” What matters is that one accepts atonement through Christ’s sacrifice and continues to stand fast in their relationship with God.

To expect someone to bind themselves to an organization of fallible human beings who have proven themselves to be terrible sinners just as is the rest of the world seems bizarre to me. The Church is the body of believers. It is not “the body of Roman Catholic Church members who participate in certain rituals and believe in particular dogma.”

Protestant sects derive from Christians who have differences in higher levels of theology and prefer certain kinds of worship. But what all Protestants have in common is the belief that eternal salvation is through faith in Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection…and ultimately that is the most important thing.