Protestants, how can this be possible?

[Grace_Seeker]

What on earth are you talking about?

I was talking about what you had said with regard to the disciples recognition of Jesus’ real presence at Emmaus. If what I said is confusing, I ask that you remember that all I was doing in that part of my post was trying to restate what I had heard you and a couple of others say. I too found it confusing. Hence my question at the end, “Am I actually understanding you correctly?”

I am glad that James eventually provided a fourth response, His answer is more along the lines of what I had expected.

Jesus was truly Present with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, while He was walking with them, while He was at table with them, and in the species of the bread and wine, after it was consecrated.

He was not “less present” with them when He was appearing to them in His glorified body. The only difference between His presence in His glorified body, and His presence in the Eucharistic species, is that of appearance, only.

I am going to receive this as clarification of your previous post that I found confusing. This is much clearer, and corresponds much closer with what James has already said and what I expected.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

And to the rest who are still reading this thread, and especially PJM, who is still waiting for an answer to his OP, please, pardon me; I beg your forgiveness for taking this thread off in a different direction once again.

 

[PRmerger]

So, I’m still Christian? I feel better.

I dunno–are you baptized?

You may be Christian, but if you believe that it’s ok to believe “Mary remained ever-virgin” and “Mary did NOT remain ever-virgin” at the same time, then you’re an illogical Christian and not in touch with reality.

 

[jmcrae]

I was talking about what you had said with regard to the disciples recognition of Jesus’ real presence at Emmaus. If what I said is confusing, I ask that you remember that all I was doing in that part of my post was trying to restate what I had heard you and a couple of others say. I too found it confusing. Hence my question at the end, “Am I actually understanding you correctly?”

I am glad that James eventually provided a fourth response, His answer is more along the lines of what I had expected.

Okay.

I am going to receive this as clarification of your previous post that I found confusing. This is much clearer, and corresponds much closer with what James has already said and what I expected.

Okay, yes.

I am still having a hard time understanding where you got the idea that we thought Jesus in His glorified body was not His Real Presence?

However - never mind. We seem to have cleared up the confusion.

 

[PRmerger]

I am still having a hard time understanding where you got the idea that we thought Jesus in His glorified body was not His Real Presence?

I think when you posted this:

At Emmaus, at the moment that Jesus consecrated the bread and wine, His body, blood, soul, and divinity went out of the visible world…

Grace took it to mean that Jesus in His glorified body left the visible world as well.

Now, however, the misunderstanding is cleared up!

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I dunno–are you baptized?

Baptized, justified, and sanctified (although not yet entirely sanctified). Check my public profile; I think you’ll find that I am a United Methodist pastor.

You may be Christian, but if you believe that it’s ok to believe “Mary remained ever-virgin” and “Mary did NOT remain ever-virgin” at the same time, then you’re an illogical Christian and not in touch with reality.

It would be illogical for any person to believe both of those at the same time. However, I would think that even in the Catholic church (which I know only teaches that Mary remained ever-virgin) there is probably room for people who believe in those contrasting positions and they can both be valid members of the Catholic church. Is that not true?

Beyond that, I’ll have to find another way to express myself regarding the multiple truths realtiy that we must be ready to deal with as we interact with the postmodern world. I don’t mean by it what you seem to have understood. Given my inability to express myself well on that point (my exuse, I’m not myself a post-modern thinker) I don’t want to continue to belabor it here. So, when I find a better way to present it I’ll start a new thread and try to remember to notify you of it.

 

[jmcrae]

It would be illogical for any person to believe both of those at the same time. However, I would think that even in the Catholic church (which I know only teaches that Mary remained ever-virgin) there is probably room for people who believe in those contrasting positions and they can both be valid members of the Catholic church. Is that not true?

If someone believes something that is contrary to what the Church teaches, our duty would be to correct that person’s misunderstanding. If they hold to a contrary belief in the full knowledge that it isn’t what the Church teaches, then that person would be guilty of heresy - a mortal sin that puts him outside of the bounds of the Church, until such time as he repents of it and wills to believe what the Church actually teaches. (Most people who believe contrary to what the Church teaches aren’t actually guilty of heresy; it’s usually just a misunderstanding, or a case of listening to false teachers without realizing it, and when they discover their error, they usually correct it very, very quickly.)

 

[PRmerger]

Baptized, justified, and sanctified (although not yet entirely sanctified).

Well, then, you’re my Brother in Christ! An older brother that I can argue with and point out his inconsistencies…

Which reminds me, are you going to retract the statement you made:

Originally posted by Grace Seeker
Well, I noticed one other thing in your quesitoing of me. I see you are suggesting that the Catholic church is comfortable adding to the scripture. For, you said, “CC teaches that the Lord is ONE God.”

for as a Christian you must believe that the Lord is ONE God and if you believe that the CC added to Scripture when she proclaims that Truth, then you have added to Scripture as well, dear Brother.

It would be illogical for any person to believe both of those at the same time.

:extrahappy:

That’s what I’ve been saying.

 

[JRKH]

Baptized, justified, and sanctified (although not yet entirely sanctified). Check my public profile; I think you’ll find that I am a United Methodist pastor.

You may be Christian, but if you believe that it’s ok to believe “Mary remained ever-virgin” and “Mary did NOT remain ever-virgin” at the same time, then you’re an illogical Christian and not in touch with reality.

While there are many areas in which catholics are free to hold diverging views, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is not one of them. The Perpetual Viriginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma and the acceptance of this teaching is necessary for one to be catholic. (note: this does not mean one needs to understand it)

Beyond that, I’ll have to find another way to express myself regarding the **multiple truths realtiy that we must be ready to deal with as we interact with the postmodern world. ** I don’t mean by it what you seem to have understood. Given my inability to express myself well on that point (my exuse, I’m not myself a post-modern thinker) I don’t want to continue to belabor it here. So, when I find a better way to present it I’ll start a new thread and try to remember to notify you of it.

I guess I’m too stupid but “multiple truth reality” sound slike an oxymoron - heavy on the moronic.
The World may wish to propose “multiple truths” but we as Christians cannot afford to. God is One, Truth is One, Christs Body needs to be One.
I vote we work on this and those who prefer obfuscation can deal with a “multiple truth reality”.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

I vote we work on this and those who prefer obfuscation can deal with a “multiple truth reality”.

Peace
James

:clapping: :bowdown:

 

[luke1_28]

While there are many areas in which catholics are free to hold diverging views, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is not one of them. The Perpetual Viriginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma and the acceptance of this teaching is necessary for one to be catholic. (note: this does not mean one needs to understand it)

I guess I’m too stupid but “multiple truth reality” sound slike an oxymoron - heavy on the moronic.
The World may wish to propose “multiple truths” but we as Christians cannot afford to. God is One, Truth is One, Christs Body needs to be One.
I vote we work on this and those who prefer obfuscation can deal with a “multiple truth reality”.

Peace
James

"multiple truth reality" - A condition created in the mind of those with no authority to interpret and teach Scripture - a.k.a. house built on sand - and is a term used to avoid the humbling discomfort when two or more members of a protestant body hold 'divinely inspired' viewpoints which may or may not cause a rift, all the while claiming that the Holy Spirit is to blame. This man-made philosophy, realized over the last 500 years, is still in development as are all "multiple truth realities".
Can we not give God more credit as a Father here? Maybe God was more organized, merciful, and just an all around Perfect Father - than to allow His children to be subjected to and confused by a “multiple truth reality” universe when His children have it rough enough already. Nothing justifies a more solid case that He did send His Son who instituted a Church with Apostolic Succession and was given the authority to teach - a.k.a. the Church built on the Rock.

Again, I am sorry to sound sarcastic, but throwing terms around like that to give validity, or the right, to hold errors, which serves only to create more confusion that Christ was NOT sent by the Father, is a mockery of Truth itself. When Catholics are held by protestants to answer “Where’s that in the Bible?”, it’s predictable that protestants would have to develop some 500 year old fledgling ‘truth’ like this to justify why there are so many divisions.

I think the New Age movement contains a “Multiple truth reality” element in it’s faith. The founder of that faith? The loser of the war of all wars that was won by Christ - The Way, The TRUTH, The Life.

God bless,
luke1_28

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Well, then, you’re my Brother in Christ! An older brother that I can argue with and point out his inconsistencies…

Which reminds me, are you going to retract the statement you made:

for as a Christian you must believe that the Lord is ONE God and if you believe that the CC added to Scripture when she proclaims that Truth, then you have added to Scripture as well, dear Brother.

Indeed I have added to truth. For instance, no where in scripture does it say that Jesus is God incarnate. No where does it say that God exists in three persons. But I read scripture and I infer from it that both of these things are true. I thus hold to them as doctrines. But neither of them are ever explicitly stated anywhere in scripture. Hence I hold as true things that scriptures does not actually say are true. I believe they are true because of the combination of both scripture and my own reasoning from the things that scripture does say. But it is a new truth. And for those that are not open to new truths (i.e. Saul before his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus) such truths are often understood as non-truths. On the other hand, sometimes people see a new truth, that human beings can do miracles such as the disciples did in the opening chapters of Acts and and recall another truth that they have experienced thus far in their lives – that all things are for sale – and infer then that they ability to do such miracles must therefore be for sale (i.e. Simon the sorcerer). The reasoning no doubt rang true to Simon, but it still did not produce a truth. Thus it is that I use the truth of scripture and the truth of my experience and the truth of the church’s tradition, and the truest reasoning I can apply to whatever is under consideration in order to arrive at the truest way for me to conform my life to the will of God both in faith and practice. I would guess that while you may not articulate it that way that you follow a similar process. Yet, because we have differnt life experiences, have grown up in different traditions, and most certainly have different ways of applying reason to things it is very likely that we will arrive at different perceptions of what is and isn’t true. Now in some cases there is an objective truth by which our individual subjective truths can be evaluated. Simon the sorcer found out the hard way that he concluded was not truth. Paul likewise had reach what he thought as the truth until he had an encounter with the one who is himself Truth. But on other occassions there is no such objective truth. For instance should I vote for the Democratic or Republican candidate in the next presidential election. People of faith seeking God’s direction are going to arrive at differing views. Does that mean that only one has the truth and the other is in error? Or perhaps the real truth is that God simply calls us to participate in the process and then respect the result? Is there really ONE answer that is superior to all others in that regard? I tend to think not. The real Truth is to remember that whatever happens, to Love God and to Love Neighbor is our only true calling in life.

The rest of it is doing the best we can. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we get it wrong. But it doesn’t matter as much as most people think it does. That isn’t what God means by I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The Truth is to be living in the will of God and people will do that in lots of different ways, even thinking (and voting) differently from one another, and yet because they are in Christ, they will still be conforming to the Truth, the only truth that matters.

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed I have added to truth.

You did not add to Truth. The Truth was revealed to you, and you accepted it.

The only way you would know the God is 3 persons yet One God is because the CC revealed that to you through Scripture and Tradition, for it is not something that can be rationally determined.

For instance, no where in scripture does it say that Jesus is God incarnate. No where does it say that God exists in three persons. But I read scripture and I infer from it that both of these things are true.

That is very Catholic of you to say that, Grace!!

BTW, how can you be a Grace SEEKER? Doesn’t God pour out His grace on you already? Why must you seek it? Wouldn’t it be better to be a Grace ACCEPTER?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

BTW, how can you be a Grace SEEKER? Doesn’t God pour out His grace on you already? Why must you seek it? Wouldn’t it be better to be a Grace ACCEPTER?

Maybe because though I’ve experienced the fullness of God’s offering of grace in my life I realize that I still have some growing in it to do yet. Not having yet attained perfection or holiness as God is holy I’m still going on to perfection. But even in my incomplete state of only initial and not entire sanctification, I remain fully confident that God will work that grace in me which is needed to accomplish it. Thus, I also remain one who seeks to be made over more and more into the image of Christ day by day. And so I seek his grace that he might accomplish such a work in me, even as I work to follow him in keeping with that grace I have already received. It is so true that I do need to accept this grace that he has already made available to me, but it seems that I can only accept that which I willfully seek to apply to my life. That too is true. Hence I am living with two different, but not contradictory, truths in my life at the sma time.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

You did not add to Truth. The Truth was revealed to you, and you accepted it.

I would agree that the sum total of Truth is unchanged from before the beginning of time. For ultimately only God is Truth and all that we know about Truth is derived from God as he reveals it to us. Yet that which we know of truth is very much dependent on the things I discussed above. Your know and my knowledge of that truth will never be identical even should have been raised as identical twins within the Catholic church for despite all our similarities we are still different people with different experiences and different receptors. As a result no two individuals have the same set of beliefs, even if they be devout Catholics, and hence not the same knowledge or acceptance of identical truth in their lives.

Therefore, if the Catholic church as 1.1 billion members, even with a single teaching magestrium there are still 1.1 billion different understandings of what it means to be Catholic and a followers of Christ. That ends up being 1.1 billion different truths which are held and not a one of them is actually The TRUTH. This can be proved easily from scripture with just two verses:
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light…” According to Jesus he, not the Catholic church is the Truth.
Paul wrote, "Now we see in a glass darkly, then we shall see face to face."We simply don’t know it all yet, there is more to be revealed, but we won’t get it all in this life. We might come close, and no doubt some are closer than others, but no body has the entire truth. We all have to admit that we’ve got at least a little bit of it wrong. That includes me, the Catholic church, and all 1.1 billion of the Christians who call it the Catholic church home.

 

[luke1_28]

I would agree that the sum total of Truth is unchanged from before the beginning of time. For ultimately only God is Truth and all that we know about Truth is derived from God as he reveals it to us. Yet that which we know of truth is very much dependent on the things I discussed above. Your know and my knowledge of that truth will never be identical even should have been raised as identical twins within the Catholic church for despite all our similarities we are still different people with different experiences and different receptors. As a result no two individuals have the same set of beliefs, even if they be devout Catholics, and hence not the same knowledge or acceptance of identical truth in their lives.

Therefore, if the Catholic church as 1.1 billion members, even with a single teaching magestrium there are still 1.1 billion different understandings of what it means to be Catholic and a followers of Christ. That ends up being 1.1 billion different truths which are held and not a one of them is actually The TRUTH. This can be proved easily from scripture with just two verses:
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light…” According to Jesus he, not the Catholic church is the Truth.
Paul wrote, "Now we see in a glass darkly, then we shall see face to face."We simply don’t know it all yet, there is more to be revealed, but we won’t get it all in this life. We might come close, and no doubt some are closer than others, but no body has the entire truth. We all have to admit that we’ve got at least a little bit of it wrong. That includes me, the Catholic church, and all 1.1 billion of the Christians who call it the Catholic church home.

Aren’t we having a play on words with the word “Truth”?

Truth is what it is. It is the concrete fixed point of reality around which the Universe was created. How people experience the Truth and even react to the Truth, does not create another Truth. Truth, if not accepted as God’s will reveals it plainly, will then either be ignored or can be negotiated which spawns a tainted ‘truth’ and the fullness of Truth never exists in this new tainted ‘truth’. It doesn’t take long for this ‘truth’ to spawn into a lie. Again, from experience, I know a thing or two about this. I spent years of my life negotiating truth - so much so that I almost died from it.

Any responsible faithful Catholic acknowledges this one Truth revealed by the Holy Trinity to man and that it is taught most fully through the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church is indeed the teaching authority of the fullness of Truth. Therefore, it isn’t that we develop truths because of how we experience truth. The Truth if negotiated becomes a lie. Therefore, we don’t have 1.1 billion truths. We have ONE TRUTH with 1.1 billion Catholics trying to live it - IF they are faithful Catholics in regards to the teachings of the Church - a.k.a. The Truth.

For as God revealed to the Chosen People/Israelites/Hebrews/Jews the fullness of the Truth they were capable of receiving at that time, Christ having Authority in being the God that He is, commisioned the Apostles to Go forth, teaching all nations through the Church He established. Teaching what? The Truth. The Way, The Truth, The Life. The Holy Spirit was guaranteed to this teaching Church.

If you seek the fullness of Truth - you will have to wrestle with your will and the prejudices and resentments you have built to find it. Seek first the Kingdom of God. If Heaven is the Kingdom - the Catholic Church is it’s outpost still teaching with its sinful human beings as it always has.

God bless,
luke1_28

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Aren’t we having a play on words with the word “Truth”?

Truth is what it is. It is the concrete fixed point of reality around which the Universe was created. How people experience the Truth and even react to the Truth, does not create another Truth. Truth, if not accepted as God’s will reveals it plainly, will then either be ignored or can be negotiated which spawns a tainted ‘truth’ and the fullness of Truth never exists in this new tainted ‘truth’. It doesn’t take long for this ‘truth’ to spawn into a lie.

No pun intended, but truer words were never spoken. Now the irony is that the lie that was spawned is simply this:

the Catholic Church is indeed the teaching authority of the fullness of Truth.

The fullness of Truth only exists in the one who was the Way, the Truth, and the Life, not in the teaching magestrium of the Catholic church, not in the Pope, not even in Simon Peter or in the Holy scriptures. The fullness of Truth cannot be found in anything less the divine himself. Remember, all we who are here on earth now know only in part, not in any fulness. To say otherwise is to say that scripture lies.

 

[luke1_28]

No pun intended, but truer words were never spoken. Now the irony is that the lie that was spawned is simply this:

The fullness of Truth only exists in the one who was the Way, the Truth, and the Life, not in the teaching magestrium of the Catholic church, not in the Pope, not even in Simon Peter or in the Holy scriptures. The fullness of Truth cannot be found in anything less the divine himself. Remember, all we who are here on earth now know only in part, not in any fulness. To say otherwise is to say that scripture lies.

Blah - God the Father revealed the Truth to His Chosen People and the Law is the outline of the Truth. Truth personified - Jesus the Lord - was born out of the Jews. So it’s evident God wanted some continuity of Truth here.

The God that changes not in being the Truth that He is, still wants continuity. If we can understand that Jesus was called Rabbi, then what did He teach to the disciples? Comprimising truths that can be molded and formed to make them comfortable? Therefore, Jesus’ Church that He established and entrusted the keys to the Kingdom with - binding and loosing - HAS to be endowed with being fully able to teach Truth. It is the will of God that it be through the Chosen People by way of ordained rabbis that He revealed the Truth. It is through the fullness of time and the will of God, that a Church be endowed with the responsibility of teaching the Truth by way of Apostolic Succession to the rest of the world.

The fullness of Truth only exists in the one who was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. But there is only on Church given the power to teach the Truth.

My ‘lie’ as you call it is a Truth your church negotiated away 500 years ago.

God bless,
luke1_28

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe because though I’ve experienced the fullness of God’s offering of grace in my life I realize that I still have some growing in it to do yet. Not having yet attained perfection or holiness as God is holy I’m still going on to perfection. But even in my incomplete state of only initial and not entire sanctification, I remain fully confident that God will work that grace in me which is needed to accomplish it. Thus, I also remain one who seeks to be made over more and more into the image of Christ day by day. And so I seek his grace that he might accomplish such a work in me, even as I work to follow him in keeping with that grace I have already received. It is so true that I do need to accept this grace that he has already made available to me, but it seems that I can only accept that which I willfully seek to apply to my life. That too is true. Hence I am living with two different, but not contradictory, truths in my life at the sma time.

Indeed! Beautiful!

To be living with 2 contradictory truths you would have to profess,“I believe God gives me sufficient grace” and to say “I also believe God does NOT give me sufficient grace.” That would be unreasonable, right?

Just as it would be unreasonable to say, “It’s okay to believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ” but it’s also ok to believe that “The Pope is NOT the vicar of Christ.” Both can’t be true.

 

[PRmerger]

Beyond that, I’ll have to find another way to express myself regarding the multiple truths realtiy that we must be ready to deal with as we interact with the postmodern world. I don’t mean by it what you seem to have understood. Given my inability to express myself well on that point (my exuse, I’m not myself a post-modern thinker) I don’t want to continue to belabor it here. So, when I find a better way to present it I’ll start a new thread and try to remember to notify you of it.

So is this “multiple truth reality” is okay with

-it’s murder to abort a baby with Down syndrome AND
-it’s ok to terminate a pregnancy based on the parents’ experience of living with a child with Down syndrome

-female genital circumcision is abhorrent and barbaric AND
-female genital circumcision is a cultural choice and it’s not our business to interfere with a practice that’s centuries old

-Jesus resurrected from the dead AND
-Jesus’ resurrection was not an actual physical resurrection, but occurred in the hearts and minds of his disciples

It’s ok, in your paradigm, Grace to hold these “multiple truth realities”?