Protestants, how can this be possible?

[PRmerger]

Thus it is that I use the truth of scripture and the truth of my experience and the truth of the church’s tradition, and the truest reasoning I can apply to whatever is under consideration in order to arrive at the truest way for me to conform my life to the will of God both in faith and practice. I would guess that while you may not articulate it that way that you follow a similar process.

Grace! What you are articulating above is the Catholic way!! :dancing:

But on other occassions there is no such objective truth.

Indeed. Or we are free to believe contrary beliefs–such as whether the Blessed Mother actually died or had a 'dormition" and then was Assumed into heaven. (The Assumption part, of course, is Catholic dogma, but Catholics are free to believe she died, OR, we are free to believe, as our Eastern Orthodox brethren call it, in The Great Dormition, in which she fell asleep)

 

[PRmerger]

The fullness of Truth only exists in the one who was the Way, the Truth, and the Life, not in the teaching magestrium of the Catholic church, not in the Pope, not even in Simon Peter or in the Holy scriptures. The fullness of Truth cannot be found in anything less the divine himself. Remember, all we who are here on earth now know only in part, not in any fulness. To say otherwise is to say that scripture lies.

You make the mistake of decapitating Christ’s body. Jesus, the fullness of Truth, is not separated from His body, from the teaching Magisterium of the CC.

He is the vine, we are the branches.

He is the Head, we are the body.

What you describe is a schizophrenic church SEPARATED from Christ; fortunately, that does not describe the CC, but seeing the 40,000 denominations that have arisen since the 16th century, what comes to mind in your description is Protestantism.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Indeed! Beautiful!

To be living with 2 contradictory truths you would have to profess,“I believe God gives me sufficient grace” and to say “I also believe God does NOT give me sufficient grace.” That would be unreasonable, right?

Just as it would be unreasonable to say, “It’s okay to believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ” but it’s also ok to believe that “The Pope is NOT the vicar of Christ.” Both can’t be true.

Just as God might refer to those who are “Not my people” as “My People”.

 

[jmcrae]

Just as God might refer to those who are “Not my people” as “My People”.

There was a sequence of time between those two things. God did not hold both positions at the same time. Rather, those who had not been God’s people (the Romans), later became God’s people (the Roman Catholic Church).

 

[PRmerger]

Just as God might refer to those who are “Not my people” as “My People”.

He did this simultaneously??

 

[PJM]

And this is why we have thousands of splinters from the only Church established by Christ Himself. Electing oneself as pope gives us the ‘right’ to lead our own church…create our own religion…even though Scripture is replete with evidence throughout the Old Testament that the Father only wanted one true way to worship Him and sent His Son in the New Testament to fill in the blanks that sinful negotiating human beings just couldn’t get a handle on. Was Christ going to then leave man to His own devices without a game plan - the Church? Logic tells me no.

The “We will not submit” battle cry is one that faintly echoes “I will not serve”. Several Old Testament covenant breakers made choices not to submit. In the New Testament, where we see many breaking the New Covenant not yet established in the events of John 6, we wonder how much of that spirit got loose on the world as they turned away.

We see what humanity did to something created by God the Father in the Old Testament to pervert the way to worship Him as created by the Father. We see what humanity did to something created perfectly by God the Son to pervert it, then as a result the One Church wasn’t reformed so much as it became deformed.

Although it seems that Christianity will never be One as Christ prayed for, I have faith in the power that the Body and Blood of Christ can give to those who try to glorify God…and not themselves.

Since Christ Himself chose ‘sinful’ humanity to lead and use in His Church, then if we think like human beings, then we will always think no one deserves to lead. We will think like human beings and become the wandering Israelites who lost faith in Moses because of His imperfections. Our hope lies not in the actions of human beings and in being judgemental of them. Our hope, like Christ’s, lies in the power of God working through the children of God not judging them for what they do, but instead praying for them to lead the Church with the authority Christ gave them.

Therefore, the protestant reformation humanized Christ’s Church by making themselves gods enough to start their own. Judging human beings incapable of leading the Church when Christ entrusted His Apostles to do so and in a special way, St. Peter, is declaring Christ’s plan inferior to a plan that wasn’t develop until 1500 years after Christ.

I don’t see how this disregard for authority has ever helped the world. It definitely hasn’t brought about Church unity that Christ prayed for. The unchurched definitely are MORE susceptible to the world because of our bickering. They are more subjected to and victimized by sin because they cannot see the unity to know that the Father sent Christ. They have too many choices - and the choices themselves are all bickering with one another.

It must be overwhelming to the unchurched and can be likened to a stroll down the cereal aisle. That’s how we have cheapened God’s salvific plan and Christ’s Church. It isn’t about picking a box of cereal to see what kind you like better. God the Father didn’t provide it in the Old Testament. So why would Christ do so for the New Covenant?

Speaking from experience, in being tired of the world and getting your butt kicked by the devil, the way we have lived our life doesn’t work. You tire of the chaos…and how unmanageable your life has become. It’s about falling on your knees, declaring that Jesus Christ is Lord, and recognizing that you need help to overcome the life you have created for yourself living your will and as a result the hell and it’s minions that seeks to tear you apart.

God doesn’t make it hard on the poor souls - we do. Man stepped in and threw a monkey wrench in Christ’s salvific plan for the world. In just using logic and trust in God’s Mercy, we can understand that God would make it easier.

The Church Christ began can be found today, where a validly ordained priest is offering the Holy Sacrifice on an altar that symbolizes the altar of the Cross on Calvary - where the Lamb of God had to hang as He shed His Blood for mankind. This True Worship of God is found throughout the Old Testament as sacrifice and the consuming of the sacrifice was required - and the New Testament finds the Son making “all things new” - and becomes the Perfect Sacrifice Himself and we must consume Him as well.

God bless,
luke1_28

Very well done my friend! THANKS!

Pat

 

[Grace_Seeker]

The Church Christ began can be found today, where a validly ordained priest is offering the Holy Sacrifice on an altar that symbolizes the altar of the Cross on Calvary - where the Lamb of God had to hang as He shed His Blood for mankind. This True Worship of God is found throughout the Old Testament as sacrifice and the consuming of the sacrifice was required - and the New Testament finds the Son making “all things new” - and becomes the Perfect Sacrifice Himself and we must consume Him as well.

God bless,
luke1_28

According to David, the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart. According to Isaiah, Israel’s sacrifices are pleasing to God as long as the people are committed to doing God’s will and repent when they sin.
And according to Amos, God hates and despises Israel’s religious feasts and even though they do bring him burnt offering he will nto accept them.
Yes, the sacrifice of the Son is important, but according to Jesus true observance of the law involves practicing the principles underlying the law, such as justice and mercy and any interpretation of God’s commands that runs contrary to these principles in reality runs contrary to the law and the spirit behind the law. Thus one could be keeping the law in very detail, jot and tittle and still not be keeping the law of God at all. When Jesus inaugurated this new covenant community it would worship not with sacrfices but in spirit and in truth. And again the truth is that the Son gives life to whom he pleases to give it. The Gentiles were not God’s people, but in Christ the one sacrifice was offered for all. And, according to Hebrews, once for all; he doesn’t have to offer himself again and again. That sacrifice has been consumated. It is not repeatable. Today our participation in the Lord’s supper is done, as Paul says that Jesus himself commanded it, in remembrance of him, not in recreation of his sacrifice. When he appears a second time it will not be to take away sin (as would be the case if the bread of the mass was literally his body given for us, rather than metaphorically so), but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (As those who receive the mass are already saved, this cannot refer to that event.) So, it is important that we what Jesus, Peter, Paul, and Iraneus and Cyril all taught, that we who are in Christ are the body of Christ – all of us. Therefore, when you celebrate communion, I encourage you not to take it without discerning his body. Look up, see us, we who you exclude from the table at Catholic services, for we too are members of Christ’s body as well, and you do not recognize us to your own peril. Remember the Lord’s judgment is that we are to love one another as he has loved us.

 

[PRmerger]

According to David, the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart. According to Isaiah, Israel’s sacrifices are pleasing to God as long as the people are committed to doing God’s will and repent when they sin.
And according to Amos, God hates and despises Israel’s religious feasts and even though they do bring him burnt offering he will nto accept them.

Amen!

…according to Jesus true observance of the law involves practicing the principles underlying the law, such as justice and mercy and any interpretation of God’s commands that runs contrary to these principles in reality runs contrary to the law and the spirit behind the law.

Again, you are making a very Catholic statement here, Grace!

Thus one could be keeping the law in very detail, jot and tittle and still not be keeping the law of God at all. When Jesus inaugurated this new covenant community it would worship not with sacrfices but in spirit and in truth.

Indeed.

But, Grace, have you ever tried to love without sacrifice?

 

[PRmerger]

And, according to Hebrews, once for all; he doesn’t have to offer himself again and again. That sacrifice has been consumated. It is not repeatable.

Amen!

Look up, see us, we who you exclude from the table at Catholic services, for we too are members of Christ’s body as well, and you do not recognize us to your own peril. Remember the Lord’s judgment is that we are to love one another as he has loved us.

Come join us at the table, Grace! You are invited by Christ himself to partake of the Fullness of Truth. Just don’t make it a lie and appear to be in full communion with Him and His Church, until you truly are. If you do not believe His words, then you are not in full communion. Once you discern that, you are well on your way, Grace!

 

[luke1_28]

Look up, see us, we who you exclude from the table at Catholic services, for we too are members of Christ’s body as well, and you do not recognize us to your own peril. Remember the Lord’s judgment is that we are to love one another as he has loved us.

I do look up and see you - for as the priest breaks the bread, I pray for the broken Body of Christ. The path that was chosen by the reformation and its followers caused those followers to remove themselves from the table of the Lord and having the heart of a father, I can only imagine how the Father must grieve at our mess.

I recognize you in my sister, Grace, for she too is not in communion with Christ’s Church. I recognize you in my friend - perhaps the closest friend I have right now - who is a pastor in the AOG church. All 3 of you sadden my heart because of the fullness of Truth we are not able to share.

However, instead of worrying about how I, or other faithful Catholics recognize you, can you please dig deep and try to see the broken family God the Father recognizes which we have created. He knows all hearts. Can you let these words penetrate the years of your formation “Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood, you cannot have My Life within you.” and in recognizing that the same Old Testament God is the God of the New Testament, that those words mean more than what the reformers and this post modern world have made them to be? They resonate through history since their inception and in no time in history, has there ever been a greater need than for God’s children to have Christ’s Life within them.

When Christ expired on the Cross, the Temple veil was rent in two. This signified that no sacrifices could be offered ever again in the Jewish Temple. But God changing not, still requires us to love Him by way of The Sacrifice in His New Covenant Church. When God closed that window He opened The Door. No…We cannot re-crucify The Crucified. Christ didn’t give the Church the impression they could. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a re-presentation of the redemptive act of Calvary where we do this in remembrance of Him. And God changing not, perfected the Sacrifice, where instead of consuming an animal, we consume God through the power given to the priest by Christ to change bread and wine into God’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity - and God in turn consumes us in the most intimate exchange between God and man that man will ever know while in this world.

Today I celebrate one year of sobriety. Tomorrow I go on retreat at a community which is very Eucharistic and Marian in its spirituality. I go in thanksgiving and seek to give of myself in this retreat - rather than to get. I ask that you pray for me - for clarity in what God would have me do. I will pray for you all here as well.

God bless,
luke1_28

 

[benidict]

Statistics show the number of Protestant secs at well in excess of 30,000!

I am befuddled, confused, bewildered how this can be a fact [a rapidly growing fact] and yet it does not seem to register with non-Catholics that something is obviously wrong.

I am very sincere in not being able to comprehend the lack of concern that seems to indicate that this is fine, it’s somehow God’s Will. There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?

I have been faithfully answeing your questions for more more than a year. Help me out here

Love and prayers,
Pat

For one thing, protestants have no magisterium. Without a governing head,
or an authority such as the Pope, anything goes. The minute someone doesnt like whats
going on they can break off and start their own movement. or denomination as the case may be. It is very much a case of blind leading the blind. as a former protestant i can see how this can easily happen. and its sad.

 

[PRmerger]

I do look up and see you - for as the priest breaks the bread, I pray for the broken Body of Christ. The path that was chosen by the reformation and its followers caused those followers to remove themselves from the table of the Lord and having the heart of a father, I can only imagine how the Father must grieve at our mess.

I recognize you in my sister, Grace, for she too is not in communion with Christ’s Church. I recognize you in my friend - perhaps the closest friend I have right now - who is a pastor in the AOG church. All 3 of you sadden my heart because of the fullness of Truth we are not able to share.

However, instead of worrying about how I, or other faithful Catholics recognize you, can you please dig deep and try to see the broken family God the Father recognizes which we have created. He knows all hearts. Can you let these words penetrate the years of your formation “Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood, you cannot have My Life within you.” and in recognizing that the same Old Testament God is the God of the New Testament, that those words mean more than what the reformers and this post modern world have made them to be? They resonate through history since their inception and in no time in history, has there ever been a greater need than for God’s children to have Christ’s Life within them.

When Christ expired on the Cross, the Temple veil was rent in two. This signified that no sacrifices could be offered ever again in the Jewish Temple. But God changing not, still requires us to love Him by way of The Sacrifice in His New Covenant Church. When God closed that window He opened The Door. No…We cannot re-crucify The Crucified. Christ didn’t give the Church the impression they could. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a re-presentation of the redemptive act of Calvary where we do this in remembrance of Him. And God changing not, perfected the Sacrifice, where instead of consuming an animal, we consume God through the power given to the priest by Christ to change bread and wine into God’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity - and God in turn consumes us in the most intimate exchange between God and man that man will ever know while in this world.

Today I celebrate one year of sobriety. Tomorrow I go on retreat at a community which is very Eucharistic and Marian in its spirituality. I go in thanksgiving and seek to give of myself in this retreat - rather than to get. I ask that you pray for me - for clarity in what God would have me do. I will pray for you all here as well.

God bless,
luke1_28

Beautiful post, luke!

It’s heartening to know that you are praying for us–for the prayers of a righteous man avails him much.

 

[PRmerger]

For one thing, protestants have no magisterium. Without a governing head,
or an authority such as the Pope, anything goes. The minute someone doesnt like whats
going on they can break off and start their own movement. or denomination as the case may be. It is very much a case of blind leading the blind. as a former protestant i can see how this can easily happen. and its sad.

Exactly. Each individual becomes, in fact, his own magisterium, his own pope.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Today I celebrate one year of sobriety. Tomorrow I go on retreat at a community which is very Eucharistic and Marian in its spirituality. I go in thanksgiving and seek to give of myself in this retreat - rather than to get. I ask that you pray for me - for clarity in what God would have me do. I will pray for you all here as well.

God bless,
luke1_28

Luke, God be with you as you go on your retreat. When the veil in the temple rent in two, it also was a sign that the holy of holies was not to be kept from the people. We now have access to the Father through the Son who died for us and reconciled us to God. His Spirit lives within us making us one with him and one with one another. May you experience that oneness with Christ to sustain you in your sobriety and your Christian journey.

A more personal question, based on your public profile I have sense I probably know where you live. For much of my ministry I was a pastor in west central Illinois: West Point, Viola, Abingdon to name a few towns surrounded by cornfields.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Exactly. Each individual becomes, in fact, his own magisterium, his own pope.

I will grant you that this is why you see the splits that one does in Protestantism. Of course, if the Pope was wrong and would not admit it, would it be better to (a) protest and ask for the pope to correct his error, (b) do nothing and just wait till things got better with a new pope someday, (c) deny that there was any error, after all he is the Pope and the Pope has told us that Christ won’t let us have a Pope who teaches error.

 

[PRmerger]

I will grant you that this is why you see the splits that one does in Protestantism. Of course, if the Pope was wrong and would not admit it, would it be better to (a) protest and ask for the pope to correct his error, (b) do nothing and just wait till things got better with a new pope someday, (c) deny that there was any error, after all he is the Pope and the Pope has told us that Christ won’t let us have a Pope who teaches error.

The bolded part is, of course, exactly what has happened. Do you really see the 40,000 denominations that have arisen because of this protest to be a good thing? Now, each person can decide what they want on: (cited in an earlier post)

What is original sin and its effects on humanity
Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination
Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture? etc etc etc…

 

[Grace_Seeker]

The bolded part is, of course, exactly what has happened. Do you really see the 40,000 denominations that have arisen because of this protest to be a good thing? Now, each person can decide what they want on: (cited in an earlier post)

The number was 30,000 when this thread began, we Protestants multiply faster than rabbits.

Do I really see the denominations that have arise because of this protest to be a good thing?

Some yes, and some no.

No, I don’t like that we have a divided witness in the world.
No, I don’t like that some people spend more time trying to convince people who are already followers of Christ to join their particular subset of Christianity than they do sharing the good news of Jesus Christ with a lost world.

Yes, I am glad that where those divisions are about rites, rituals, and modes of expressing the faith or administering the body politic, that we are able to offer different strokes for different folks.
And, most definitely YES, I am glad that someone stood up and said to the Pope that the Church had lost its way and he wasn’t leading it as if leading the body of Christ but behaving more like a medieval lord overseeing his castle and lands. I would have preferred for Leo to listen to Luther, or at least to more people like Cardinal Contarini. And if Paul IV had been Pope instead of Leo, I doubt that there ever would have been a Protestant Reformation because he did bring about some much needed reforms. But by then there seems to have been too much water under the bridge to put things back. Once it was accepted by people that the Pope can error, there were many errors that were visible. I don’t think that they are all worthy revolution, but once the colonies have become a country, England isn’t going to reclaim them without giving up her own sovereignty. So, we will continue, living under the sovereignty not of the Holy See, but of Christ.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

The bolded part is, of course, exactly what has happened. Do you really see the 40,000 denominations that have arisen because of this protest to be a good thing? Now, each person can decide what they want on: (cited in an earlier post)

What is original sin and its effects on humanity
Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination
Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture? etc etc etc…

No any denomination is by its nature Roman Catholic or Protestant prone to be destructive to the Christian Faith, period. Leaders ,big “L”, are the problem dictating and reigning down their interpretations of scripture on people who they then brainwash since children to that view. Why do we need anyone doing that we have the Bible, the Holy Spirit and a few others to worship with without anyone dictating anything.

 

[PRmerger]

The number was 30,000 when this thread began, we Protestants multiply faster than rabbits.

Your Total “Christian Denominations” Count for today is 41062
Please pray for Christian unity (John 17; Eph 4:5; Matt 16:18)
Source: here

Do you want a specific list of Protestant denominations? Here is 5000+

I cited this earlier.

Your statement about Prot denominations mutiplying faster than rabbits is probably closer to the truth than you realize, Grace. :sad_yes:
For who can count the number of corner churches that arise with every single disagreement of every single sentence uttered by our Lord. Those denominations are not even included in the above count.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I don’t like that we have a divided witness in the world.
No, I don’t like that some people spend more time trying to convince people who are already followers of Christ to join their particular subset of Christianity than they do sharing the good news of Jesus Christ with a lost world.

So is this “multiple truth reality” is okay with

-it’s murder to abort a baby with Down syndrome AND
-it’s ok to terminate a pregnancy based on the parents’ experience of living with a child with Down syndrome

-female genital circumcision is abhorrent and barbaric AND
-female genital circumcision is a cultural choice and it’s not our business to interfere with a practice that’s centuries old

-Jesus resurrected from the dead AND
-Jesus’ resurrection was not an actual physical resurrection, but occurred in the hearts and minds of his disciples

It’s ok, in your paradigm, Grace to hold these “multiple truth realities”?