Protestants, how can this be possible?

[Grace_Seeker]

So is this “multiple truth reality” is okay with

-it’s murder to abort a baby with Down syndrome AND
-it’s ok to terminate a pregnancy based on the parents’ experience of living with a child with Down syndrome

-female genital circumcision is abhorrent and barbaric AND
-female genital circumcision is a cultural choice and it’s not our business to interfere with a practice that’s centuries old

-Jesus resurrected from the dead AND
-Jesus’ resurrection was not an actual physical resurrection, but occurred in the hearts and minds of his disciples

It’s ok, in your paradigm, Grace to hold these “multiple truth realities”?

It’s reality that people who hold to each of those views do so because they believe them to be the truth and that none of those things excludes someone from being part of the body of Christ.

How I personally or the Catholic church corporately feels about the OK-ness of those positions is irrelevant to the activity of Christ’s grace in reconciling each individual to God.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s reality that people who hold to each of those views do so because they believe them to be the truth and that none of those things excludes someone from being part of the body of Christ.

The question is: do you believe that both can be true at the same time?

How I personally or the Catholic church corporately feels about the OK-ness of those positions is irrelevant.

Indeed.

 

[jmcrae]

I will grant you that this is why you see the splits that one does in Protestantism. Of course, if the Pope was wrong and would not admit it, would it be better to (a) protest and ask for the pope to correct his error, (b) do nothing and just wait till things got better with a new pope someday, (c) deny that there was any error, after all he is the Pope and the Pope has told us that Christ won’t let us have a Pope who teaches error.

Let’s compare and contrast outcomes:

St. Francis of Assisi saw the brokenness of the Church in Italy and brought it to the Pope’s attention. The Pope ignored him. St. Francis went home and prayed about it. He then returned, dressed in sack cloth and ashes. Got kicked out before he had a chance to see the Pope. Went home and prayed about it. Went back, properly clothed, but walking on his knees. The Pope finally gave him a hearing. Established the Order of the Franciscans, and saved the Church in Italy from several different heresies. Outcome: Italy today is predominantly Catholic.

Martin Luther saw the brokenness of the Church and brought it to the attention of the Pope. The Pope ignored him. Martin Luther went home and wrote a nasty insulting tract about the Pope, which he had published and distributed throughout Germany. Went back to the Pope and got kicked out. Went home and complained to his government, inciting them to separate from the authority of the Pope. War broke out. Didn’t dare go back to the Pope, for fear of the Inquisition. Outcome: Germany today is predominantly secular.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Francis was a better man than Luther, no doubt. Doesn’t mean that Leo was right and Luther wrong.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

The question is: do you believe that both can be true at the same time?

But that isn’t what I meant when Ifirst spoke about multiple truths. That is why some time ago I said that it was clear I had not expressed myself well and that I needed to let it lay while I found a better way to put the concept.

 

[jmcrae]

Francis was a better man than Luther, no doubt. Doesn’t mean that Leo was right and Luther wrong.

Martin Luther blew his opportunity to become a Saint, while God used others to deal with Pope Leo, including Sts. Teresa and John of Carmel.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Martin Luther blew his opportunity to become a Saint, while God used others to deal with Pope Leo, including Sts. Teresa and John of Carmel.

So be it. Luther blew a lot of things. He was a bit of a rogue in my opinion, but his 95 thesis were also largely right on track.

 

[PRmerger]

But that isn’t what I meant when Ifirst spoke about multiple truths. That is why some time ago I said that it was clear I had not expressed myself well and that I needed to let it lay while I found a better way to put the concept.

I believe what you’re trying to say is that while there are somethings that it’s ok to have contradictory beliefs about, there are some objectively true things a Christian must believe, yes?

 

[luke1_28]

A more personal question, based on your public profile I have sense I probably know where you live. For much of my ministry I was a pastor in west central Illinois: West Point, Viola, Abingdon to name a few towns surrounded by cornfields.

Get out of town! Abingdon? I graduated from there!
On Commandos! On Commandos!
Show them how we stand.
Always ready, always steady, known through out the land…
rah rah rah.

West Point - I just did some networking for the school there. And Viola - is part of Rio, Oneida, Wataga, Viola, Altona - also known as ROWVA - the fball team we played in 87 in the playoffs and lost…7-6

Dude…this is my home - the cornfield…ain’t much to do - but it’s safer than L.A.!

I live in Bushnell now. 22 miles from Abingdon. South on 41.

If you are close enough - let’s grab some coffee.

OK - now back to religion
First off, thank you for the well wishes and prayers - not only to you, but everyone else. It was most awesome and fruitful…when God fills someone up like He has me, the words of the Psalmist come to mind:
“What is man that your are mindful of him? Mortal man that you care for him?”

Using my judgement against me, if I were God, I would have thrown me out a long time ago. I wasted so much time…but God the Father - being the most amazing Father one can’t even imagine…has given me the years that the locusts have stolen. It was almost as if I stopped the grace - by my actions - my actions were the dam. Then when I got my head out of you know where, there was a flood of grace…like the dam had been destroyed…It is like the Father was making up for lost time. “Son, I have missed you. I have some work I need you to do. Now prepare for grace overload because you took a little side journey but I have been saving this up for you. So don’t blame me when you feel like you’re drowning in My Love. It’s your fault.”

So much work to do that I left undone. Not only for my family as the leader of it, but for the Kingdom - as a servant in it.

 

[luke1_28]

I will grant you that this is why you see the splits that one does in Protestantism. Of course, if the Pope was wrong and would not admit it, would it be better to (a) protest and ask for the pope to correct his error, (b) do nothing and just wait till things got better with a new pope someday, (c) deny that there was any error, after all he is the Pope and the Pope has told us that Christ won’t let us have a Pope who teaches error.

Luther was a man full of pride - made himself higher than Christ by creating HIS OWN CHURCH…the CHURCH wasn’t broken…but the people in it…including Luther…and everyone were.

Luther, as all the reformers did, lost faith in the power of the Eucharist - or at least in where the only place is you can get it. Political motivation became the driving force - and humble service to God took backseat to serving proud kings. It is their loss of faith in the Eucharist where he and all the others turned there backs as the disciples did who turned away in John 6…the corrupt Church leaders could have stood accused, condemned, and hanged…but they would have died with the power that Luther gave up…the power to bring Christ down on the altar. Reformation of THE PEOPLE - was needed…but the Church is perfect as She is…the Bride of Christ. The power God gave to the Apostles and their successors is not contingent on holiness of the individual…thank GOD! Otherwise, we could not have Christ’s life because no man is perfect!

 

[luke1_28]

Luke, God be with you as you go on your retreat. When the veil in the temple rent in two, it also was a sign that the holy of holies was not to be kept from the people. We now have access to the Father through the Son who died for us and reconciled us to God. His Spirit lives within us making us one with him and one with one another. May you experience that oneness with Christ to sustain you in your sobriety and your Christian journey.

The holy of holies is now accessible strictly because the Son opened it when He died for us. Heaven is open! However, we must know that it’s the Sacrifice of the Son that got us there and that the Sacrifice has no merit if we don’t consume it. Animal sacrifices - united man to God spiritually by mans obedience. The Perfect Sacrifice unites God to man by the obedience of God the Son - the Servant King, physically and not just spiritually. It is complete and Perfect. It is finished yet remembered.

My faith - is given to me - and to you…not merely to just believe that Christ existed…that’s something my 7 yr old believes. Faith - a gift of God - is for something much more. It’s for believing all the Bible - from Beginning to End…Alpha and Omega…Genesis and Revelation…that all of it points to not just a God who lives in Heaven…but lives right here on earth NOW! Our faith then, is a gift to strengthen so we see the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ …beyond the bread and wine. For it is in strengthening this faith - we see the Humble Jesus - the True King He is - and when we consume Him, our hearts become His living Tabernacle. His heart becomes our heart. His Soul becomes our soul. His Blood becomes our blood. God shares His Divinity - HIS VERY LIFE - with us completely and fully…perfectly.

The whole Bible is the recording of how from the beginning of it, the world is being prepared by God to receive the Holy Eucharist - clear up until the very end of the Bible - the Apocolypse - which documents not so much spooky future events as it does the LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD on the altar!

For the Holy Eucharist is Jesus - truly present…The Real Presence. Here on earth, he resides as the Servant King to be our Food for the Journey to our True Home. So that when our time has come, the God hidden in the bread and wine - will be revealed in all His Glory in the Beatific Vision.

The most important directive of the whole Bible - “Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood, you cannot have My Life.”…must be restated to the whole world as the most important message. It is our faith that we must work on to receive this Revelation of God that He wants to love us that much! No one can have His Life - No one can have His Life …UNLESS…we eat His Body and drink His Blood…

The Church as well should do nothing more than to increase this reality in Herself. Christ wants to marry His Bride. Christ must give His Body up for His Bride just as Adam had to give up his body for his bride. Both…the Bride of Christ and the Eve - have to receive - so that they can have LIFE! it’s symbolic not only of a marriage between man and woman - but of the marriage of Christ and His Church.

Grace, I am so sincere when I speak to you…because you have the best intentions…but God wants more than best intentions for you and all the people you are responsible in pastoring. God wants to give you the fullness of His Life RIGHT NOW! Ask yourself…please… What if luke1_28 is right? What if the Catholic Church IS what we claim it to be - but just some of it’s people weren’t right? You have your questions, doubts, maybe confusion about whatever it is you are confused about - but point and counterpointing all day doesn’t take away the fact that is laid out before you in the Bible…that you cannot, nor can your flock - HAVE CHRIST’S LIFE…BUT to this day it is given for you in the most fully - and Biblical way. What if we are right?

At the nearest Catholic Church…You will see Him with us - as He said He would be…til the end of time…
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
1 Corinthians 11:23-25

and as for how serious St. Paul is…he continues in 27-31

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.
If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment;

I can point you to good study sites…one being this one: agapebiblestudy.com/

I haven’t gone through that site fully myself, but if you would like to, we could do it together.

I pray these words of mine haven’t been too prideful sounding or harm in any way…if anything, consider it might be true. Then ask, “What then must I do?”

God bless you brother,
luke1_28

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I believe what you’re trying to say is that while there are somethings that it’s ok to have contradictory beliefs about, there are some objectively true things a Christian must believe, yes?

Close, but not quite. Are you familiar with the phrase “perception is reality”? This perhaps gets closer to it. For instance, let’s take a look at Luke’s comment below. (Or is it above? Given the way I’ve written this post it’s actually sort of both.)

West Point - I just did some networking for the school there. And Viola - is part of Rio, Oneida, Wataga, Viola, Altona - also known as ROWVA - the fball team we played in 87 in the playoffs and lost…7-6

Well, the Viola I lived in is part of the Sherrard school district, located on US 67 about 25 miles north of Monmouth in Mercer county about halfway between Alpha and Aledo. I think the “V” you are looking for in ROWVA is Victoria.

So, let’s examine this for “Truth”.

I happen to believe that there is an objective reality with regard to Truth. (Note, I believe this, not all persons believe it.) And therefore I am correcting Luke with regard to the identity and location of Viola. I’m pretty sure that I am right on this and that Luke will accept my judgment because though he sees himslef as familiar with these towns, I actually lived in the one under discussion.

However, when Luke posted he was obviously sure of himself enough to go ahead and post this material as fact. He didn’t post it just thinking that he knew this stuff. No, he posted knowing (in his own mind at least) this stuff. Thus from yesterday’s post until today it has been his reality, and also I would suspect yours and the reality of anyone else who cared to read this thread. Because, after all you got the information from an authoritative source, Luke, who personally was acquainted with that which he testified regarding. Yet while this was your reality this whole time, it was not mine. Therefore, for a time we had two different realities.

Now, in this case we had two different realities (using the concept that perception is reality), but not two different truths – the objective truth of Viola’s location being not established by perception, but actual geography. Nonetheless. If you had been planning a trip to Viola, you might have contacted Luke, and he would have given you directions (at least general directions) and because you are a smart person you would have been confident that you could have found it. You would have planned your trip accordingly, and only on arrival would you have found out you were wrong. Or, because Viola is not far from the other communities mentioned in the ROWVA school district, you might have actually stumbled into Viola as you drove around in the general vicinity and thus actually had some confirmation that Luke had given you relatively good directions and you would have been even more convinced of the truth of his original statement.

So, despite there being only one objective truth, reality would have been that folks were operating with different sets of internal truths. And you, in particular would actually be in the real Viola, while having been given directions there by one who did not know where the real Viola was. Very strange, but completeely plausible.

Well, that is a sad illustration of what I am talking about, but one that does come from the practical and concrete world. When we move it to the realm of ideas, this becomes even more plausible. For instance, what is the #1 high school football team in the state of Illinois. Well, the answer depends on which sideline you are sitting. It doesn’t matter the score at the end of the game, everyone thinks that their team is #1. Or at least that what they write in bright school colors on the windows of their cars as they head off to the games. And who is to say that they aren’t both true. If your standard is who won the state championship you might argue with me, but what if your standard is which is the school that is #1 in my heart, then there might be many different #1s depending on who you talked to. And so, Luke and my childre (both graduates of Abingdon H.S.) would agree that Abingdon Commando’s are #1. Or maybe not. Maybe Luke has children going to school at Bushnell-Prairie City? In that case he might have changed his view to match that of his children and claim that Bushnell is now #1. While I’m making the same claim of a school that is presently 2-4 heading into their homecoming.

At one level, the level of objective truth, we know that none of these claims are true. But, in truth, we don’t really care about objective truth. That isn’t what we are measuring, and if you are, then you are living in a different reality than one that we care about. Rather, when it comes to declaring what team is number #! the only truth that matters is my subjective evaluation of it at game time. And you can tell me I am wrong till you are blue in the face, and it won’t change a thing because I already know who is #1. WE ARE!!

(continued)

 

[Grace_Seeker]

(continued)

Now, let’s take a look at a different concept – the idea of “family”. To discuss family some people would say that we must arrive at a definition of “family.” But notice how hard that is to do. For years, the American culture’s understaning of family was Mom, Dad, and 2.3 children. (Exactly how you got the .3 child I never understood. ) But is that would not be the way we would want to think about family in our churches today. At least I don’t want my church operating that way. There is a different truth today with regards to family. They come in all different shapes and sizes. We are an older church and most of the families in my particular congregation are just husband and wife. But we have been attracting new people to the church recently, and I noticed yesterday that fully 1/3 of those in attendance were under 50. (Of course to reflect the community at large it should be more like 2/3, but that is still really exciting news for us.) The funny thing is that these folks come from completely different types of family structures than what the rest of the church understands. We have “families” that are made up of single-parents. Many are “families” in which there as many as 3 different last names in the family unit. And in some the people are related at all. People often have trouble understanding the nature of my own family. For instance, it will really confuse you when I say that I called my daughter this past weekend to wish her luck on a test she was taking. Her dad answered the phone and told me that she wasn’t there, that she had already left for the test with her mom. But when I talked to my daughter later she thanked me that Mom and I were praying for her. Now, all of that is true. But it probably doesn’t fit your understanding of the nature of reality and therefore you don’t perceive how it can be true. That is, not until you understand the make up of my family. You see besides having 2 biological children, we also have foster children and have hosted exchange students in our home who also became family. When people ask me today how many children we have my answer is 8. Sometimes someone will ask how many of them are your real children – a sure way to incur my wrath – to which my response is that last time I checked they were all real as none of them were fake.

A couple of years ago we visited my son who is from Vietnam. He came to live with us when he was just 17. He had escaped Vietnam by walking across the the entire country of Vietnam and Cambodia to a UN refugee camp in Thailand. From there he was placed in a UN Asian minor refugee resettlement program and eventually with us. That was more than 20 years ago. Today, he is a citizen, has a family of his own, and just recently was able to bring his widowed mother from Vietnam over to here to live with them. Our visit was the first time we were ever to meet his mother. When he introduced us, he did it with these exact words (words I will never forget). “Mom, Dad, this is my mom. Mom, this is Mom, Dad.” And then she gave us one of the biggest hugs I have ever had in my life. I didn’t get it till then, but we were heros in her life because we had rescued and saved and raised her little boy. There was no question in Hoa’s mind that we were all his parents and we were accorded the mix of both honor and familiarity in that home which in Vietnamese culture would be reserved only for one’s parent or grandparents. So, you tell me, are we really Hoa’s parents or not?

And here is the thing that I was trying to get at in my intial post on this subject pages and pages ago. It doesn’t really matter how YOU annswer that question. It won’t change what is true in our lives.

So, when you ask about Protestantism, you can answer all you want from the Catholic perspective and tell us that this is how you see it. It doesn’t change the nature of the truth that we experience in our lives. The truth, for us (even if you chose not to accept it) is that we are fully part of the body of Christ and therefore part of Christ’s one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. You can say we are not till you are blue in the face, but you are just wasting your breath for from our own experience of the Church and the confimatory experience of the Holy Spirit’s witness in our lives, we already know it to be true. And the definition of Church which you use and the interpretation of scripture and history that you turn to to support your beliefs simply don’t ring true with us. Though I know you will disagree, from where we stand it seems that it is the very teachings of the Catholic church with regard to itself that are nothing more than a subjective reality of your own making, and contrary to objective truth. But I realize that no less than you, as Paul said to the Corinthians, I too only see in a glass darkly and only know in part. So, I allow that at least at present on earth none of us has THE ultimate answer. That sort of truth is found on in Christ. And I am not Christ. I am only his servant and at best a poor interpreter of his TRUTH. So, I allow that you may think differently than me on this for it is Christ and not our view of the Church which is key to our essential unity.

However, if you insist on only one truth, then know that we are right and you are wrong, because, just like in football, the home team is #1.

 

[PRmerger]

Now, in this case we had two different realities (using the concept that perception is reality), but not two different truths –

Ok, Grace, now here is where I disagree with you. ONE of you is wrong, despite his “perception”. The objective reality, and the objective truth are one and the same.

So, yes, until the objective truth has been revealed (V is for Viola or V is for Victoria–whatever), one could have believe in his mistaken reality.

HOWEVER, once the Truth has been revealed, you cannot continue to persevere in your mistaken perception.

“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin”.( John 15:22).

So, to persevere in believing for example, “It’s ok to abort a child with Down syndrome because I know what it’s like to live with a child with Down Syndrome” is a mistaken perception, if you’re a Christian. In fact, it’s not merely a “mistaken perception” but it’s gravely sinful and absolutely morally wrong. One simply cannot be a Christian and believe that.

 

[PRmerger]

For instance, what is the #1 high school football team in the state of Illinois. Well, the answer depends on which sideline you are sitting. It doesn’t matter the score at the end of the game, everyone thinks that their team is #1. Or at least that what they write in bright school colors on the windows of their cars as they head off to the games. And who is to say that they aren’t both true. If your standard is who won the state championship you might argue with me, but what if your standard is which is the school that is #1 in my heart, then there might be many different #1s depending on who you talked to.

Well, then, we have to agree on what’s the standard, don’t we?

Once we establish what’s the standard: the #1 high school football team in the state of Illinois is the one that won the state championship, then there is no chance for “multiple truth realities” is there?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Ok, Grace, now here is where I disagree with you. ONE of you is wrong, despite his “perception”. The objective reality, and the objective truth are one and the same.

So, yes, until the objective truth has been revealed (V is for Viola or V is for Victoria–whatever), one could have believe in his mistaken reality.

HOWEVER, once the Truth has been revealed, you cannot continue to persevere in your mistaken perception.

Yes, where there is objective truth that can be verified. The mistake I think that you are making is to assume that this would always be the case.

“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin”.( John 15:22).

So, to persevere in believing for example, “It’s ok to abort a child with Down syndrome because I know what it’s like to live with a child with Down Syndrome” is a mistaken perception, if you’re a Christian. In fact, it’s not merely a “mistaken perception” but it’s gravely sinful and absolutely morally wrong. One simply cannot be a Christian and believe that.

One can be a Christian AND believe those things. For indeed one can be a Christian AND sin. One of course should not, but the reality of sin however abominable does not in itself negate the reality of God’s grace which is also active in our lives. Indeed, it is just the opposite, “because love covers over a multitude of sins” (1 Peter 4:8). We can be Christians (i.e. followers of Christ) even though we are so very imperfectly.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Well, then, we have to agree on what’s the standard, don’t we?

Once we establish what’s the standard: the #1 high school football team in the state of Illinois is the one that won the state championship, then there is no chance for “multiple truth realities” is there?

But the given reality is that despite the presence of a state high school championship, that is not the standard by which the hometown fans apply the designation of #1 status to a team. This is what I mean about living in a different reality. As someone living outside of Illinois, you might choose to use the standard of the state championship. As one who lives in Illinois and has youth from our church playing on the local high school football team, I have a completely different standard. And there is no outside determinator that can say that my standard or your standard is to be preferred. When the determination of what the objective standard will be is itself completely subjective it really makes no logical sense to appeal to objective standards.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Let me give another example: I have a new grandson. His name is Isaac. He was born just 2 weeks ago. Would you like to see a picture of the most beautiful baby in the world?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, where there is objective truth that can be verified. The mistake I think that you are making is to assume that this would always be the case.

I don’t believe this is always the case, Grace.

I do believe that there are some ESSENTIAL truths that must be believed (see the CCC), and then there are things which we are free to “agree to disagree”.

However, as a Protestant who does not have the benefit of Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium, you have NO STANDARD for criteria for essentials. Hence, the 40,000 denominations which disagree in all manner of essentials and nonessentials.

One can be a Christian AND believe those things. For indeed one can be a Christian AND sin.

Yes, I stand corrected. One could be a Christian AND believe it’s ok to abort a child with Down syndrome. But it would not be correct to say he’s free to believe that. He is in grave error.

It was my understanding that you were proferring that in your “multiple truth realities”, based on one’s experience, one can determine whatever one wishes to be moral and true.

It does seem that this is what your “multiple truth reality” paradigm would look like.

 

[PRmerger]

But the given reality is that despite the presence of a state high school championship, that is not the standard by which the hometown fans apply the designation of #1 status to a team.

Grace, I get that.

I’m just saying that when you declare what the standard is, then there can be no room for “multiple truth realities”. I just used the state championshp as an example. You could very easily say: the standard for determining the #1 team in Illinois is the team that scored the most TDs, or the team that had the most “come from behind” wins, or the team that gave all of its concession stand profits to the homeless. Ok. Then, if that’s the standard, then the #1 team is ____. Let’s just declare what the standard is, then there’s absolutely no question, no room for “multiple truth realities”.

And there is no outside determinator that can say that my standard or your standard is to be preferred.

As long as the standard is declared–I’ll go by whatever you say it is in Illinois high school football–then there will be ONE answer. Not a multitude like your paradigm proffers.

When the determination of what the objective standard will be is itself completely subjective it really makes no logical sense to appeal to objective standards.

You really think in Christianity, (which is what we’re really talking about here, isn’t it?) we don’t have an objective standard, Grace???