Protestants, how can this be possible?

[rev_kevin]

Interesting and newsworthy to be sure.

However, I always have a bit of healthy skepticism when I hear a secular news source report on anything Catholic. Inevitably, they get something miserably wrong.

The report that you cited above raises my eyebrows about the number of married Catholic priests growing “sharply”. That does not sound mathematically plausible–it would be like saying “the number of illegal immigrants is declining sharply because Jehovah’s Witnesses are returning to the country of origin.” I mean, really, how many is that and how would that affect the situation?

Lawrence Cunningham, a theology proffessor at the University of Noter Dame said,“Its a stunning turn of events” Read the artical yourself. I saw it and I thought I would share it.

 

[PRmerger]

Lawrence Cunningham, a theology proffessor at the University of Noter Dame said,“Its a stunning turn of events” Read the artical yourself. I saw it and I thought I would share it.

Oh, I don’t have any doubts that you’re quoting the article correctly. I just have a healthy skepticism about whether the article got it entirely right.

Example: use of the word “sharply” to indicate the apparently dramatic influence the married clergy would have on Catholicism. Doubtful. But, hey, it’s an arguable point and I’m not completely convinced it couldn’t dramatically affect the culture of the clergy.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

To those who were in full communion with himself and the other Apostles - the lawful successors of whom are the Pope and his loyal Bishops.

Then I would suggest that Romans 12:3 applies to you as well: “Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment.”

And that 1 Corinthian 12 then tells you how to consider those of us that you have exluded:

13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

In modern English this is saying that everyone who is baptized into Christ is a part of one body. Indeed, you have said this yourself: “By means of their Baptism, persons outside the visible Church are in partial communion with it, and can in a certain sense be called Christians.” So, as you have said, I and other non-Catholics who have experienced Christian baptism are indeed to be called Christian. And as Paul has said, because we are baptized we are part of one body. You may call that body the visible Church or the Catholic Church, or whatever you want to call it. But the one thing you cannot say, at least not and still be in harmony with scripture, is that because we are not the eye or the ear that we are not part of the body. We are not identical, but we are still one. There are many parts, but one body. We have all received the one baptism and that is all that is needed to be part of the one body.

 

[PRmerger]

Then I would suggest that Romans 12:3 applies to you as well: “Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment.”

That verse applies to all of us.

And that 1 Corinthian 12 then tells you how to consider those of us that you have exluded:

We most definitely do NOT exclude you, GraceSeeker! Come on in! The water’s fine! (It’s Holy Water, too! )

So, as you have said, I and other non-Catholics who have experienced Christian baptism are indeed to be called Christian.

Indeed. You are our brother in Christ. When you were baptized you were joined to the CC, but to the degree that you have left the body of Christ is the degree to which you are separated.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

That verse applies to all of us.

So, you think that Romans 12:3 applies to all. How then is it that Romans 12:5 should apply only to “those who were in full communion with himself and the other Apostles - the lawful successors of whom are the Pope and his loyal Bishops?” It seems to me that 12:5 applies even to us whom you term “seperated brethern” in the same way that 12:3 does.

We most definitely do NOT exclude you, GraceSeeker! Come on in! The water’s fine! (It’s Holy Water, too! )

But you do. You say that we are part of the body, but not part of the Church.

Indeed. You are our brother in Christ. When you were baptized you were joined to the CC, but to the degree that you have left the body of Christ is the degree to which you are separated.

I have never left the body of Christ. I am indeed separated from the Vicar of Christ in that I do not believe he is properly in authority over me, but I am not separated from the body of Christ for I do recognize Christ as head of the body and am under his authority. I submit to you that there is a difference between being under the authority of Christ and being under the authority of the Pope.

 

[PRmerger]

So, you think that Romans 12:3 applies to all. How then is it that Romans 12:5 should apply only to “those who were in full communion with himself and the other Apostles - the lawful successors of whom are the Pope and his loyal Bishops?” It seems to me that 12:5 applies even to us whom you term “seperated brethern” in the same way that 12:3 does.

Of course, Grace,* every single verse *in Scripture applies to us at some level.

So when Jesus says, for example, “I will give you the keys to the kingdom” he was speaking to all believers * and we as Catholics are free to interpret it to specific situations in our life. There was someone on this forum who read that verse during a time of adversity and understood God was telling her she would prevail–that’s God’s Word speaking to her personally and the CC is all about that! (We just are not free to use Scripture to contradict *doctrine.)

At another, more literate level, Jesus was speaking specifically and most definitively, to Peter and indicating his power to bind and loose.

So, yes, Romans 12 applies to all of us, and Romans 12:5 also applies to “those who were in full communion with himself and the other Apostles - the lawful successors of whom are the Pope and his loyal Bishops.”

See, Grace, while the Catholic answer is usually both/and, it is never an example of “multiple truth realities” as you proffer.

 

[PRmerger]

But you do. You say that we are part of the body, but not part of the Church.

Well, then, come join us at the Table. You’re not excluded at all!

I already posted this to you way back on post #865:

Come join us at the table, Grace! You are invited by Christ himself to partake of the Fullness of Truth. Just don’t make it a lie and appear to be in full communion with Him and His Church, until you truly are. If you do not believe His words, then you are not in full communion. Once you discern that, you are well on your way, Grace

I have never left the body of Christ.

I understand that, in one sense, you have not since you never made a “formal” decree of leaving the CC. You always were Methodist (I assume), so yes, you never left that body.

I am indeed separated from the Vicar of Christ in that I do not believe he is properly in authority over me, but I am not separated from the body of Christ for I do recognize Christ as head of the body and am under his authority.

Therein lies the problem. You have decapitated Christ from His body.

I submit to you that there is a difference between being under the authority of Christ and being under the authority of the Pope.

But what does this authority look like to you? How does it work in reality? When you have a question of doctrine, to whom do you appeal? Scripture? Firstly, that’s not what Scripture tells you to do. Secondly, see the 40,000+ denominations that have arisen because, in reality, saying Scripture is your authority creates confusion and is, in essence, ***the antithesis ***of authority. No one knows what God has definitively said in this paradigm.

(BTW, the website I cited has a “Christian Denomination” counter at the bottom of the page. Right now it says 41,107. Just a few weeks ago when I visited the site it was
40, 067. :crying

 

[Sword_Brethren]

The in depth analysis will simply provide irrefutable proof that Catholic practices are a profound departure from what scripture teaches

Mandatory celibacy is just one example of where catholic teaching is a violation of what the Bible teaches.

jonathon

Wrong.

Matthew 19:12 “For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.”

 

[jmcrae]

Then I would suggest that Romans 12:3 applies to you as well: “Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment.”

And that 1 Corinthian 12 then tells you how to consider those of us that you have exluded:

In modern English this is saying that everyone who is baptized into Christ is a part of one body. Indeed, you have said this yourself: “By means of their Baptism, persons outside the visible Church are in partial communion with it, and can in a certain sense be called Christians.” So, as you have said, I and other non-Catholics who have experienced Christian baptism are indeed to be called Christian.

Baptism certainly brings us into the Catholic Church and makes us Christians; however, it brings with it the obligation to practice the Catholic faith.

You seldom see newly-baptized Protestants coming to Sunday Mass or doing any of the other things that Catholics are supposed to do - indeed, most of them start associating themselves with schismatic and/or heretical organizations even before the water has dried on their foreheads, although in too many cases, we also find them just returning to their pre-baptismal lawlessness.

These things are not their fault, because they are not instructed. They are made to think that it’s “okay” for them to belong to schismatic organizations, or even that it’s “okay” to use the local Protestant church for Baptism, and then to continue on with their secular lives without any change in it whatsoever.

So, by virtue of being baptized, Protestants can be considered Christians, in a sense - however, it has been made impossible for them to become good practicing Christians, since they are never told what the obligations are that they take on, at baptism.

 

[PJM]

=rev kevin;-Have you heard what the Pope is doing? The number of married Catholic priests could grow sharply as the result of the Vatican’s epochal dicision to welcome thousands of disaffected Angelican and Episcopalians into the Catholic church.Vatican officials announced that the church would set up a special canonical structure that will ease the conversion of members of the Anglican communnion without having them to give up what the Vatican called “the distructive Anglican spiritual and liturgical patrimony.” That means not only a body of prayers and hymns, but the tradition of married priests and Bishops. This decision will allow for many more married clergy in the western Churches.
This is from the world news. Posted on AOL Oct. 20th 2009. By James Graff, world editor.
I know it off the subject but I thought is worth mentioning.

I think it is a bit more involved than first meets the eye.

The Anglican Priest will have to go through Catholic Oridation. If single, I’m not sure but I think they will be required to take the same vow of Chasity as Catholic Priest. Also unclear was the issue of furture priest being married?

There is talk of “Local Ordinaries” who have the Governing authority of Catholic Bishops without the title, and again if I understand correctly, future Bishops will have to be single?

This will be another “branch” on the Catholic vine.

I view this is as very good news [dispite the waves of descent that no doubt are alreadly building] because those chooing to come back into the CC are Traditional and Sacramentally grounded [all though as currently practiced, they are not valid like ours], and are seemingly eager to be Obedient to Rome and the Catholic Churches teachings, doctrines and dogma’s? That is very good news.

I pray God will guide the process.

Love and prayers,

 

[Grace_Seeker]

See, Grace, while the Catholic answer is usually both/and, it is never an example of “multiple truth realities” as you proffer.

I suggest you drop that, for you never understood what it was I was talking about. Thus your objections have never addressed the concept I was talking about. That you didn’t understand is not an accusation, just an observation. I’m sure if I had done a better job of explaining it then would have made more sense to you. As it is, since you didn’t grasp what I was talking about, your objections are more like continuing to remind me that grass is green like leaves on trees and not blue like water because in some long ago conversation I was trying to explain to you what Kentucky bluegrass was.

I still believe that there are multiple levels of truth, you yourself just made a reference to one regarding the “keys of the kingdom” and I still believe that since none of us have the absolute truth (only God possesses that), that therefore the best any of us have is a glimpse at truth. The means that what we understand to be true may be different things. Because we are only dealing in part we may even believe apparent contradictory things and yet in the end, when all is ultimately revealed, find that both were nonetheless true, or perhpas that both our truths were in fact mostly false and only captured a sliver of the truth. Such, I suspect is true especially with regard to the hypothesis regarding God we all make when discussing theology – that includes me, you, and our respective church traditions and doctrines.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Baptism certainly brings us into the Catholic Church and makes us Christians; however, it brings with it the obligation to practice the Catholic faith.

You seldom see newly-baptized Protestants coming to Sunday Mass or doing any of the other things that Catholics are supposed to do - indeed, most of them start associating themselves with schismatic and/or heretical organizations even before the water has dried on their foreheads, although in too many cases, we also find them just returning to their pre-baptismal lawlessness.

These things are not their fault, because they are not instructed. They are made to think that it’s “okay” for them to belong to schismatic organizations, or even that it’s “okay” to use the local Protestant church for Baptism, and then to continue on with their secular lives without any change in it whatsoever.

So, by virtue of being baptized, Protestants can be considered Christians, in a sense - however, it has been made impossible for them to become good practicing Christians, since they are never told what the obligations are that they take on, at baptism.

And what of Catholics who return to their pre-baptismal lawlessness. In my own exprience, I am aquainted with more Catholics who have had their children baptized, had them go through first communion, and other major milemarkers, but beyond those once in a life time events live completely apart from the church (any church) than I am with protestant parents who do the same.

Mind you, I am not saying that I don’t know of any protestant parents who have done this, just that I personally happen to be acquainted with more Catholics who have behaved this way than I am with similarly negligent protestants. And that’s saying something since I am a protestant minister.

 

[PRmerger]

I suggest you drop that, for you never understood what it was I was talking about. I 'm sure if I had done a better job of explaining it really would have been sense to you.

Fair enough.

I still believe that there are multiple levels of truth, you yourself just made a reference to one regarding the “keys of the kingdom” and I still believe that since none of us have the absolute truth (only God possesses that), that therefore the best any of us have is a glimpse at truth.

Ah, (not wanting to belabor the point), but “multiple levels of truth” is a very different animal than that “multiple truth realities” nonsense.

You are in agreement with the CC in that there is indeed a hierarchy of truths. However, you just won’t find it in the Bible alone what these “essential” truths are and what’s secondary. That’s why you need the Magisterium.

The means that what we understand to be true may be different things. Because we are only dealing in part we may even believe apparent contradictory things and yet in the end, when all is ultimately revealed, find that both were nonetheless true, or perhpas that both our truths were in fact mostly false and only captured a sliver of the truth. Such, I suspect is true especially with regard to the hypothesis regarding God we all make when discussing theology – that includes me, you, and our respective church traditions and doctrines.

Absolutely not! Simply because we believe apparent contradictory things does not mean that both can be true.

Again, it goes back to dismissing the 40,000+ different denominations and the viewpoint that this is acceptable, since they agree on “essentials”. Nonsense. Example: One teaches divorce and re-marriage is adultery; another teaches it’s acceptable. BOTH can’t both be true.

Even of we’ve only received a partial revelation of Truth, what we know is *not *contradictory.

 

[jmcrae]

And what of Catholics who return to their pre-baptismal lawlessness.

Their guilt is more severe, because they have the ability to know better. But we aren’t talking about them, here.

In my own experience, I am aquainted with more Catholics who have had their children baptized, had them go through first communion, and other major milemarkers, but beyond those once in a life time events live completely apart from the church (any church) than I am with protestant parents who do the same.

And again, their guilt is more severe, because they have the ability to know better. But we aren’t talking about them.

Mind you, I am not saying that I don’t know of any protestant parents who have done this, just that I personally happen to be acquainted with more Catholics who have behaved this way than I am with similarly negligent protestants. And that’s saying something since I am a protestant minister.

Right - it’s a prevalent problem. Those who have the ability to know better are, of course, held to a much higher standard than those who don’t. But withholding knowledge from others (as the early Protestants withheld from their followers) is even more severe, because they are damning thousands of souls to Hell, rather than only their own.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Absolutely not! Simply because we believe apparent contradictory things does not mean that both can be true.

Again, it goes back to dismissing the 40,000+ different denominations and the viewpoint that this is acceptable, since they agree on “essentials”. Nonsense. Example: One teaches divorce and re-marriage is adultery; another teaches it’s acceptable. BOTH can’t both be true.

Even of we’ve only received a partial revelation of Truth, what we know is *not *contradictory.

Q. What is the commandment which Jesus gave to his disciples?
A. Love one another as I have loved you.

Q. Is that all Jesus had to say on love?
A. No. He also told us to love God with all our heart and mind and soul and strength. And to love our enemies.

Q. Is this a universal truth for all time and places?
A. Yes.

Q. Is making war on a person an act of love?
A. It would hardly seem so, especially if you were personally experiencing it.

Q. Has God ever told his people to make war on another?
A. Yes. The OT is filled with such activity.

I contend that these are contradictory commands, both from God. I am also willing to speculate that once we know more fully God’s real intent with regard to Israel’s neighbors in the OT, that it will no longer appear as it does now. But in this life we are going to have to live with the contradiction.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

But withholding knowledge from others (as the early Protestants withheld from their followers) is even more severe, because they are damning thousands of souls to Hell, rather than only their own.

What I find incongruous in your posts especially, is the apparent willingness to recognize protestants as Christians, persons who are saved (in your mind) through connection to Christ’s Church, even if imperfectly so. And to recognize that there are many who have absolutely no connection to Christ whatsoever. And yet you appear more willing to labor at converting an already Christian from Protestantism to Catholicism than to actually effect the salvation of a non-Christian who is indeed going to hell complete apart not just from the Catholic Church, but from Christ himself.

Now, maybe this isn’t really true of you. But it is how you consistently present yourself to me here on this forum.

 

[PRmerger]

Q. What is the commandment which Jesus gave to his disciples?
A. Love one another as I have loved you.

Q. Is that all Jesus had to say on love?
A. No. He also told us to love God with all our heart and mind and soul and strength. And to love our enemies.

Q. Is this a universal truth for all time and places?
A. Yes.

Q. Is making war on a person an act of love?
A. It would hardly seem so, especially if you were personally experiencing it.

Q. Has God ever told his people to make war on another?
A. Yes. The OT is filled with such activity.

I contend that these are contradictory commands, both from God. I am also willing to speculate that once we know more fully God’s real intent with regard to Israel’s neighbors in the OT, that it will no longer appear as it does now. But in this life we are going to have to live with the contradiction.

I contend that the commands found in the OT concerning genocide/war were not intended to be understood literally. Scripture contains numerous symbolic aspects as well as literal ones, and these commands could be interpreted as symbolic.

God is not a God of contradictions.
Read more about “Hard Sayings in the OT” here.

 

[jmcrae]

What I find incongruous in your posts especially, is the apparent willingness to recognize protestants as Christians, persons who are saved (in your mind) through connection to Christ’s Church, even if imperfectly so.

I’m not even entirely convinced that I’m saved; I don’t presume to think anything on the subject regarding Protestants. By some kind of lucky chance someone might go an entire lifetime, from baptism to death, without sin, and thus be “saved” but without the graces of the Sacraments to sustain them I can hardly see how that’s possible.

And to recognize that there are many who have absolutely no connection to Christ whatsoever. And yet you appear more willing to labor at converting an already Christian from Protestantism to Catholicism than to actually effect the salvation of a non-Christian who is indeed going to hell complete apart not just from the Catholic Church, but from Christ himself.

Now, maybe this isn’t really true of you. But it is how you consistently present yourself to me here on this forum.

I have also debated with atheists and agnostics on this forum, and elsewhere. (They often style themselves as “Catholic” for reasons known only to themselves, which might make it seem as if I only debate with Protestants and Catholics - but if you read the content of these exchanges, I think it becomes apparent very quickly how many of them are not Christians at all.)

Protestants are of more concern to me, because I used to be a Protestant myself, and I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been brought into the Catholic Church. It is purely a work of grace, but it was by means of just such a debate as we are now having, with me presenting very similar arguments to your own, that the lights finally came on, for me.

My antagonist at one point wrote four simple words: One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic. And that’s when all the pieces finally came together, for me. Did I admit it at the time? Not a chance. But I started thinking, I had better convert, “some day.” You can read the rest of the story in my link, below.

 

[PJM]

Greetings friend,

I’m puzzled by your remarks. GO FIGURE

Truth can only be truth, what it is. True one can completly understand it, partially understand it or not understand it at all. Is this what you mean?

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Filioque]

And what of Catholics who return to their pre-baptismal lawlessness. In my own exprience, I am aquainted with more Catholics who have had their children baptized, had them go through first communion, and other major milemarkers, but beyond those once in a life time events live completely apart from the church (any church) than I am with protestant parents who do the same.

Mind you, I am not saying that I don’t know of any protestant parents who have done this, just that I personally happen to be acquainted with more Catholics who have behaved this way than I am with similarly negligent protestants. And that’s saying something since I am a protestant minister.

As a Protestant Minister, would you say that the majority of the Protestants you interact with are Protestants who attend Church?

Are you aquanted with more lapsed Catholics, simply because there are more lapsed Catholics?

Given that the Catholic Church is the largest of the Denominations, if you break down the Protestants into the various Churches and Sects, each with a different idea of what one is obliged or reccomended to do in order to be an active member, does this increase or decrease the numbers for one group or the other.

Does the number of Catholics in a non-randomized study show that the Catholic Church has failed, or that Catholics or others in an increasingly Secular world do not know and cherish the Truths taught by the Church?