Protestants: How Can You Not Be Catholic, After Viewing a Catholic Mass?

[OneTrueCathApos]

I have found that the spirit one brings into a service (any service) and the willingness one has to be open to the spirit found there, is going to be very different for everybody who attends. The same service might be described as incredibly spiritual and inspirational by one person, and the one sitting next to him will describe how boring it was or how inane/stupid/long-winded the sermon was.

The spirit you bring will often overwhelm the one you find.

Nice last sentence.

 

[Cat]

Please post what will convince them. It should be just God’s Word that would convince them, interpreting it correctly, not the way that they want it read.

OK, I’ll try.

1. By this shall all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love one for another. John 13: 36.

OneTrueCathApos, It’s not God’s Word or good apologetics that convinces Protestants–it’s love. That’s what Jesus said. Catholics are very very good at showing love to the poor and the disenfranchised in this world. But we are often very bad at showing love to the strangers and to the Protestant who are visiting our Mass.

Yes, Mass is not a fellowship time. But the times BEFORE or AFTER Mass are fellowship times, at least in the OF Mass. Pick one of these times to say your prayers and be reverent, and pick the other time to show some love to visitors. You don’t have to gush and goo and hug and kiss and “bless your heart, I’m just so glaaaad-uh to welcome you to our little church!” Yechh! Just smile and wave to people you don’t know. Smile and nod to the person who sits next to you in your pew. Say hi to anyone who looks like they might need a word of love. During the Mass, if someone looks confused, help them to find the place in the missallette or hymnal. Be courteous about making room for more people in your pew. And COMPLIMENT babies–so many people really need to hear that their children are cute or sweet because they’re convinced that their children are changelings.

1. The Word of God. Liturgical Protestant churches (mainlines) are used to the various readings, the Psalm, and the Gospel. Evangelicals are NOT used to this, and it is very refreshing to them to hear so much of God’s Word. Just one thing–the evangelical Protestant believes that the Catholic Bible is a different Bible, so they are reading their Bibles to compare and try to find the differences. (There really aren’t any, except for the Deuterocanonicals.). So here’s a suggestion to Catholics who would like to evangelize Protestants in their midst–bring your BIBLE to church, and read the readings out of the Bible, not the missallette. Any Protestants who are sitting near you will be impressed, and it makes them feel more comfortable, because that is what THEY are doing.
2. The Processional. Yes, this is very inspiring to evangelicals, especially as they see the Word of God carried aloft and honored. I remember wondering why the heck Protestant churches don’t make a bigger fuss over the Bible!
3. The Sign of the Cross. The Cross is a belief that Catholics and Protestants hold in common. Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. Many Protestants have no objection to this sign, especially when they remember Ephesians 3: 14-18, especially v 18.
4. Kneeling. Many Protestant kneel in private prayers, but they can’t during their church services because the pews are too close and there are no kneelers. Some kneel anyway–my husband always did, by facing the back of the pew.
5. The Creed. This is something else that all Christians hold in common. Most evangelicals never recite creeds, but they are in the back of their hymnals.
6. A good pithy homily centered on the BIBLE. Yes, it would be better if it was longer and had three points and alliteration. But as long as it is BIBLICAL, the Protestant will appreciate it.
7. The prayer time. Many Protestants find pastoral prayers rather dull, even though they would never admit that. But in the Catholic Mass, the PEOPLE respond (Lord, hear our prayer). Protestants recognize Matthew 18:20 in action.
8. The Communion. In many evangelical Protestant churches, communion is held sporadically, and some have relegated it to a loaf of bread and a bottle of grape juice on a table and help yourself. It is a joy to see the Bible come to life in the Communion time. Even if Protestants don’t believe in the True Presence, they still believe that Communion is done in memory of the Lord Jesus.
9. The music. Yes, the music. As long as it is SINCERE. Many evangelicals are tired of the theatrical music at their churches. It’s so nice to sing out of a hymnal (or missallette) instead of from an overhead, and it’s so nice to have a real hymn (old or new, it doesn’t matter) instead of a repetitious praise and worship chorus. And although I know that many of the traditionalist on the board deplore the Haugen and Haas songs, many of these songs touch the heart of the evangelical Protestant. The first time I ever heard Gather Us In, I cried, and after the Mass, I wrote it all down on a piece of paper so that I could take it out and read it at work. I know, it’s not deep theology, but it meets the Protestant where they are. I think these “bridge” songs between Protestants and Catholics are good to include in the Mass for the sake of the strangers among us. It’s no different than you making sure that there is at least one thing at your dinner table that a guest likes–it’s hospitality, and that’s a Gift of the Holy Spirit.
10. The Lord’s Prayer (or Our Father). At LAST! something that the Protestant knows! However, he/she will be embarrassed when they go on to say the doxology. Oh, well.
11. The Lifting up of the Lord in the Consecration. This is straight out of the Bible–John 12:32. I believe it is at this time that many evangelical Protestants realize that yes, that really is JESUS up there on the altar.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

OK, I’ll try.

1. By this shall all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love one for another. John 13: 36.

OneTrueCathApos, It’s not God’s Word or good apologetics that convinces Protestants–it’s love. That’s what Jesus said. Catholics are very very good at showing love to the poor and the disenfranchised in this world. But we are often very bad at showing love to the strangers and to the Protestant who are visiting our Mass.

Yes, Mass is not a fellowship time. But the times BEFORE or AFTER Mass are fellowship times, at least in the OF Mass. Pick one of these times to say your prayers and be reverent, and pick the other time to show some love to visitors. You don’t have to gush and goo and hug and kiss and “bless your heart, I’m just so glaaaad-uh to welcome you to our little church!” Yechh! Just smile and wave to people you don’t know. Smile and nod to the person who sits next to you in your pew. Say hi to anyone who looks like they might need a word of love. During the Mass, if someone looks confused, help them to find the place in the missallette or hymnal. Be courteous about making room for more people in your pew. And COMPLIMENT babies–so many people really need to hear that their children are cute or sweet because they’re convinced that their children are changelings.

1. The Word of God. Liturgical Protestant churches (mainlines) are used to the various readings, the Psalm, and the Gospel. Evangelicals are NOT used to this, and it is very refreshing to them to hear so much of God’s Word. Just one thing–the evangelical Protestant believes that the Catholic Bible is a different Bible, so they are reading their Bibles to compare and try to find the differences. (There really aren’t any, except for the Deuterocanonicals.). So here’s a suggestion to Catholics who would like to evangelize Protestants in their midst–bring your BIBLE to church, and read the readings out of the Bible, not the missallette. Any Protestants who are sitting near you will be impressed, and it makes them feel more comfortable, because that is what THEY are doing.
2. The Processional. Yes, this is very inspiring to evangelicals, especially as they see the Word of God carried aloft and honored. I remember wondering why the heck Protestant churches don’t make a bigger fuss over the Bible!
3. The Sign of the Cross. The Cross is a belief that Catholics and Protestants hold in common. Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. Many Protestants have no objection to this sign, especially when they remember Ephesians 3: 14-18, especially v 18.
4. Kneeling. Many Protestant kneel in private prayers, but they can’t during their church services because the pews are too close and there are no kneelers. Some kneel anyway–my husband always did, by facing the back of the pew.
5. The Creed. This is something else that all Christians hold in common. Most evangelicals never recite creeds, but they are in the back of their hymnals.
6. A good pithy homily centered on the BIBLE. Yes, it would be better if it was longer and had three points and alliteration. But as long as it is BIBLICAL, the Protestant will appreciate it.
7. The prayer time. Many Protestants find pastoral prayers rather dull, even though they would never admit that. But in the Catholic Mass, the PEOPLE respond (Lord, hear our prayer). Protestants recognize Matthew 18:20 in action.
8. The Communion. In many evangelical Protestant churches, communion is held sporadically, and some have relegated it to a loaf of bread and a bottle of grape juice on a table and help yourself. It is a joy to see the Bible come to life in the Communion time. Even if Protestants don’t believe in the True Presence, they still believe that Communion is done in memory of the Lord Jesus.
9. The music. Yes, the music. As long as it is SINCERE. Many evangelicals are tired of the theatrical music at their churches. It’s so nice to sing out of a hymnal (or missallette) instead of from an overhead, and it’s so nice to have a real hymn (old or new, it doesn’t matter) instead of a repetitious praise and worship chorus. And although I know that many of the traditionalist on the board deplore the Haugen and Haas songs, many of these songs touch the heart of the evangelical Protestant. The first time I ever heard Gather Us In, I cried, and after the Mass, I wrote it all down on a piece of paper so that I could take it out and read it at work. I know, it’s not deep theology, but it meets the Protestant where they are. I think these “bridge” songs between Protestants and Catholics are good to include in the Mass for the sake of the strangers among us. It’s no different than you making sure that there is at least one thing at your dinner table that a guest likes–it’s hospitality, and that’s a Gift of the Holy Spirit.
10. The Lord’s Prayer (or Our Father). At LAST! something that the Protestant knows! However, he/she will be embarrassed when they go on to say the doxology. Oh, well.
11. The Lifting up of the Lord in the Consecration. This is straight out of the Bible–John 12:32. I believe it is at this time that many evangelical Protestants realize that yes, that really is JESUS up there on the altar.

Yes, it would be nice if anyone would join our church based on love, but that isn’t reality here. They should join knowing the truth is IN the Catholic church. That’s it . period. They should know Christ founded the Catholic church but you are saying they won’t join because it is love they seek? Really?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

OneTrueCathApos, it sounds like you have a heart for evangelizing Protestants and bringing them home to the One True Church. That’s so nice!

But please be careful and try not to be so glib about accusing Protestants of interpreting Scripture incorrectly. You’ll get a lot further by respecting their knowledge, their scholarship, and yes, their interpretations, even though you disagree with many of their interpretations. Telling them that they have it all wrong is not going to build any bridges between you and Protestants. You can see already from my answer to your OP that there are a lot of things that you don’t understand about Protestants. They’re not as simple as you think.

There has been a lot of Protestant scholarship through the centuries and today as well. John Calvin alone is amazing in his bra(name removed by moderator)ower (yes, I think he taught heresy). Modetn scholars like John R.W. Stott, R.C. Sproul, F.F. Bruce, J.I. Packer, and others are extremely well-read, knowledgeable in the ancient languages, in ancient history, and in the science of textual criticism. They are not country-hick fool yahoos who pick and choose passages that appeal to their emotions and ignore anything that’s too hard for them to comprehend.

R.C. Sproul in particular is fascinating for Catholics to read, as he actually DEFENDS much of Catholicism. (His main problem with Catholicism is the doctrine of indulgences.)

I would suggest that you get a copy of John R.W. Stott’s Basic Christianity. It will help you to get a feeling for the depth of knowledge and wisdom that these scholars have. John R.W. Stott is beloved by evangelicals for his loving, pastoral heart, too. He did a lot of good in the 1970s when the “charismatic movement” split so many Protestant churches. He brought reason and knowledge to the frey and made peace.

As I have said to others on this Board, it is entirely possible to read a document (or Scripture) and have different interpretations. Even the Catholic Church Bible scholars do not agree on the correct interpretation of every passage of Scripture.

Many of the non-scholarly Protestants (I would have classed myself this way) learn from these great Protestant scholars by reading their books.

You are rather wasting your time. Do a check of her posts and you will find out that her way is attack only. She actually fights with other Catholics for not being “properly Catholic”. She plagerizes regularly and mostly people have gotten to the point of simply ignoring her.

She brooks absolutely no disagreement with anything she claims. Even when shown wrong, she refuses to apologize or acknowledge. Everyone has tried at one point or another to reason with her, but it’s useless.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

You are rather wasting your time. Do a check of her posts and you will find out that her way is attack only. She actually fights with other Catholics for not being “properly Catholic”. She plagerizes regularly and mostly people have gotten to the point of simply ignoring her.

She brooks absolutely no disagreement with anything she claims. Even when shown wrong, she refuses to apologize or acknowledge. Everyone has tried at one point or another to reason with her, but it’s useless.

Leave it to Spiritmeadow to come and trash such a beautiful thread. But she is pathetic and constantly does these kinds of things. She is a disgruntled ex-Catholic…

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

OK, I’ll try.

1. By this shall all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love one for another. John 13: 36.

OneTrueCathApos, It’s not God’s Word or good apologetics that convinces Protestants–it’s love. That’s what Jesus said. Catholics are very very good at showing love to the poor and the disenfranchised in this world. But we are often very bad at showing love to the strangers and to the Protestant who are visiting our Mass.

Yes, Mass is not a fellowship time. But the times BEFORE or AFTER Mass are fellowship times, at least in the OF Mass. Pick one of these times to say your prayers and be reverent, and pick the other time to show some love to visitors. You don’t have to gush and goo and hug and kiss and “bless your heart, I’m just so glaaaad-uh to welcome you to our little church!” Yechh! Just smile and wave to people you don’t know. Smile and nod to the person who sits next to you in your pew. Say hi to anyone who looks like they might need a word of love. During the Mass, if someone looks confused, help them to find the place in the missallette or hymnal. Be courteous about making room for more people in your pew. And COMPLIMENT babies–so many people really need to hear that their children are cute or sweet because they’re convinced that their children are changelings.

1. The Word of God. Liturgical Protestant churches (mainlines) are used to the various readings, the Psalm, and the Gospel. Evangelicals are NOT used to this, and it is very refreshing to them to hear so much of God’s Word. Just one thing–the evangelical Protestant believes that the Catholic Bible is a different Bible, so they are reading their Bibles to compare and try to find the differences. (There really aren’t any, except for the Deuterocanonicals.). So here’s a suggestion to Catholics who would like to evangelize Protestants in their midst–bring your BIBLE to church, and read the readings out of the Bible, not the missallette. Any Protestants who are sitting near you will be impressed, and it makes them feel more comfortable, because that is what THEY are doing.
2. The Processional. Yes, this is very inspiring to evangelicals, especially as they see the Word of God carried aloft and honored. I remember wondering why the heck Protestant churches don’t make a bigger fuss over the Bible!
3. The Sign of the Cross. The Cross is a belief that Catholics and Protestants hold in common. Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. Many Protestants have no objection to this sign, especially when they remember Ephesians 3: 14-18, especially v 18.
4. Kneeling. Many Protestant kneel in private prayers, but they can’t during their church services because the pews are too close and there are no kneelers. Some kneel anyway–my husband always did, by facing the back of the pew.
5. The Creed. This is something else that all Christians hold in common. Most evangelicals never recite creeds, but they are in the back of their hymnals.
6. A good pithy homily centered on the BIBLE. Yes, it would be better if it was longer and had three points and alliteration. But as long as it is BIBLICAL, the Protestant will appreciate it.
7. The prayer time. Many Protestants find pastoral prayers rather dull, even though they would never admit that. But in the Catholic Mass, the PEOPLE respond (Lord, hear our prayer). Protestants recognize Matthew 18:20 in action.
8. The Communion. In many evangelical Protestant churches, communion is held sporadically, and some have relegated it to a loaf of bread and a bottle of grape juice on a table and help yourself. It is a joy to see the Bible come to life in the Communion time. Even if Protestants don’t believe in the True Presence, they still believe that Communion is done in memory of the Lord Jesus.
9. The music. Yes, the music. As long as it is SINCERE. Many evangelicals are tired of the theatrical music at their churches. It’s so nice to sing out of a hymnal (or missallette) instead of from an overhead, and it’s so nice to have a real hymn (old or new, it doesn’t matter) instead of a repetitious praise and worship chorus. And although I know that many of the traditionalist on the board deplore the Haugen and Haas songs, many of these songs touch the heart of the evangelical Protestant. The first time I ever heard Gather Us In, I cried, and after the Mass, I wrote it all down on a piece of paper so that I could take it out and read it at work. I know, it’s not deep theology, but it meets the Protestant where they are. I think these “bridge” songs between Protestants and Catholics are good to include in the Mass for the sake of the strangers among us. It’s no different than you making sure that there is at least one thing at your dinner table that a guest likes–it’s hospitality, and that’s a Gift of the Holy Spirit.
10. The Lord’s Prayer (or Our Father). At LAST! something that the Protestant knows! However, he/she will be embarrassed when they go on to say the doxology. Oh, well.
11. The Lifting up of the Lord in the Consecration. This is straight out of the Bible–John 12:32. I believe it is at this time that many evangelical Protestants realize that yes, that really is JESUS up there on the altar.

Ok, perfect example of uncharitable Protestants is Spiritmeadow whose comment was uncalled for. I am very glad she has posted this about me to show her true colors here as a disgruntled ex-Catholic. AND not one who seeks love from Catholics.

 

[jblake]

OneTrueCathApos;:

It should be just God’s Word that would convince them, interpreting it correctly, not the way that they want it read.

From an evangelical Christian point of view, the Catholics are the ones that interpret scripture according to what they (Catholics) want it to read, not the way it actually reads.(There is a reason why the text of RSV-CE is different from both the RSV, and the RSV-A.)

that is they interpret the bible incorrectly.

Catholic theology can be refuted using the Bible, as interpreted by Fundamental Evangelical Protestants, as easily as Fundamental Evangelical Protestant Theology can be refuted using the Bible, as interpreted by Catholicism.

I only read Protestant conversions to Catholicism

You should also read the conversions of Catholics, to Protestant Christianity. (There are for more in that direction, than the other direction.)

jonathon

 

[BrianH]

I have never been blown away by a service in any church in my first visit. I think in general it helps to give most churches a second and third visit…even if one is looking within their own group.
But back to the OP, I think it would be surprising to find a first service so compelling one would be inclinded to join the church…I don’t know, maybe I am an exception to how many normally perceive churches…

 

[Truthstalker]

I just wondered after Protestants see the Holiness at a Catholic Mass, since Jesus was Holy, why not be Catholic? I have heard many conversions after attending church services, and even one convert who was Jewish (Edith Stein), who walked into a church, felt the Holiness of the people praying and knew where her calling would lie.

My wife and I sort of got on this topic on the way to church today. We passed a Catholic church about five minutes before their service ended, and sure enough, there was a steady stream of cars leaving the parking lot. I spent a number of months attending Mass there, and generally well over half the congregation left during the Eucharist. They would go to the front and then leave.

I seriously considered becoming Catholic. I really like the NO Mass. While there are a few serious people, most of the people I observed were very flip and casual about the whole thing. What were the Catholics telling me about Catholicism? That it is not even worth staying to the end of the service. Inattention, boredom, lousy music, poor dress and participation were a witness to what they really believe, and that is that they took Communion and then took off.

I have spent a number of hours praying alone in a Catholic Church, where indeed God seems to be in a special way. I have seen some devout Catholics. I have seen many more devout Protestants.

But that is not why one should or should not become Catholic. It should not be on the basis of one emotional experience at a Mass, or a comparison of the quality between services. It should be on the basis of a careful evaluation of the competing claims of the belief systems, and an evaluation of the fruit in the lives of the people one sees, as far as one can see. In that sense the OP is deeply flawed.

I see the Catholic Church as utterly failing at producing godly fruit in the lives of its members, from my personal observations of the Catholics I have known, their profound ignorance of their own religion, and their behavior at Mass. Catholics are their own worst witness. I might as well ask, how can one, knowing Catholics, desire to become or remain Catholic?

 

[Cat]

Yes, it would be nice if anyone would join our church based on love, but that isn’t reality here. They should join knowing the truth is IN the Catholic church. That’s it . period. They should know Christ founded the Catholic church but you are saying they won’t join because it is love they seek? Really?

I’m afraid I didn’t make myself clear.

I agree, a person shouldn’t join a church because of love. You can find love in a bar or an ice skating rink or in any organization in which you have a common interest with others.

But love will attract seekers, including Protestants. There has to be an initial reason why the Protestant even begins to investigate Catholicism, and more often than not, it is the love that the Catholics show for each other.

JESUS said it, not me–“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

There has to be something that tells the Protestant that Catholics are true disciples of Jesus, and that “something”, according to Jesus, will be love for one another. That’s what JESUS said, not Cat.

Once the Protestant or other seeker is convinced, because of the love that they show to one another, that Catholics are, indeed, real Christians, not followers of some kind of pagan cult, THEN the Protestant may be willing to do some serious study and compare the Catholic Church and Her teachings to the Word of God. I agree with you, the Protestant will see how the Word of God is, indeed, Catholic, and the Catholic Church is, indeed, in line perfectly with the Word of God.

But it all starts with love, according to our Lord.

 

[Cat]

My wife and I sort of got on this topic on the way to church today. We passed a Catholic church about five minutes before their service ended, and sure enough, there was a steady stream of cars leaving the parking lot. I spent a number of months attending Mass there, and generally well over half the congregation left during the Eucharist. They would go to the front and then leave.

I seriously considered becoming Catholic. I really like the NO Mass. While there are a few serious people, most of the people I observed were very flip and casual about the whole thing. What were the Catholics telling me about Catholicism? That it is not even worth staying to the end of the service. Inattention, boredom, lousy music, poor dress and participation were a witness to what they really believe, and that is that they took Communion and then took off.

I have spent a number of hours praying alone in a Catholic Church, where indeed God seems to be in a special way. I have seen some devout Catholics. I have seen many more devout Protestants.

But that is not why one should or should not become Catholic. It should not be on the basis of one emotional experience at a Mass, or a comparison of the quality between services. It should be on the basis of a careful evaluation of the competing claims of the belief systems, and an evaluation of the fruit in the lives of the people one sees, as far as one can see. In that sense the OP is deeply flawed.

I see the Catholic Church as utterly failing at producing godly fruit in the lives of its members, from my personal observations of the Catholics I have known, their profound ignorance of their own religion, and their behavior at Mass. Catholics are their own worst witness. I might as well ask, how can one, knowing Catholics, desire to become or remain Catholic?

I would say that perhaps you should get to know more Catholics. I have known and currently know quite a few Catholics who follow Jesus closely and are becoming more like Him everyday. Yes, there are duds, but there are a lot of saints, too.

And I would say that perhaps you should delve a little deeper into Protestant life. I have known and currently know Evangelical Protestants who are living a double life and whose walk does not match their talk.

The problem is, Evangelical Protestants who live a sinful lifestyle are not welcome to come to church until they’ve cleaned up their act, so you never meet them. Meanwhile, Catholics living in blatant sin are still welcome to come to Mass, and you DO see them. So your impressions are rather skewed of both groups.

 

[Religio71]

My wife and I sort of got on this topic on the way to church today. We passed a Catholic church about five minutes before their service ended, and sure enough, there was a steady stream of cars leaving the parking lot. I spent a number of months attending Mass there, and generally well over half the congregation left during the Eucharist. They would go to the front and then leave.

I seriously considered becoming Catholic. I really like the NO Mass. While there are a few serious people, most of the people I observed were very flip and casual about the whole thing. What were the Catholics telling me about Catholicism? That it is not even worth staying to the end of the service. Inattention, boredom, lousy music, poor dress and participation were a witness to what they really believe, and that is that they took Communion and then took off.

I have spent a number of hours praying alone in a Catholic Church, where indeed God seems to be in a special way. I have seen some devout Catholics. I have seen many more devout Protestants.

But that is not why one should or should not become Catholic. It should not be on the basis of one emotional experience at a Mass, or a comparison of the quality between services. It should be on the basis of a careful evaluation of the competing claims of the belief systems, and an evaluation of the fruit in the lives of the people one sees, as far as one can see. In that sense the OP is deeply flawed.

I see the Catholic Church as utterly failing at producing godly fruit in the lives of its members, from my personal observations of the Catholics I have known, their profound ignorance of their own religion, and their behavior at Mass. Catholics are their own worst witness. I might as well ask, how can one, knowing Catholics, desire to become or remain Catholic?

There is actually a thread on the Traditional Catholic forum about people leaving after Communion. Some Catholics seem to think that the reason to go to Mass is to just receive the Eucharist, and while that is the highlight and most important part of Mass, the Mass itself as worship of the Trinity is not done until the recessional is complete, and the recessional hymn is done.

Fortunately, most of the Catholics on this forum have had the opposite experience in their parishes. We must remember, there are A LOT more Catholics than Protestants, so your sample size isn’t equal. Secondly, in every single religion, especially in the Western world, their are people that just “go through the motions”, going to church on Sunday “because you’re supposed to”, partaking in the Eucharist (even if they’re in a state of mortal sin) because ‘everyone else is’(I admit, I used to do this), making the sign of the cross and not really thinking about why they are, etc. In every single church and religion, you’ll find more people going to services during the big holidays.

Daily Mass is also a great experience, especially after 5pm, where you see people going to church after work. Now, most, including myself, would rather go back home and relax, however these are devoted Catholics that go almost every day during the week to worship God and partake in the Eucharist. You should try attending that, and see the difference. Most Catholic parishes are open during the week, which is wonderful. Many Catholics (and all other Christians), as stated above, are the ones that go to church on Sunday because they “have to”. Go during the week and see the people that go then.

Luckily, we have MANY people converting to Catholicism, and have not had the experience or the mindset that you are expressing. Catholics are the best witness of Catholicism. We show that, not all of us are perfect, and that we are all sinners.

 

[Religio71]

also, before criticizing the behavior of Catholics, why not judge the behavior of Protestants in places like CARM, among others. Should I judge all Protestants or their various churches based on my experiences there?

 

[SC_Peach]

Do you really want to know the answer to your question?

I was evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism.

I can list a dozen reasons off the top of my head why a Catholic Mass would not convince an evangelical Protestant to become Catholic. You won’t agree with these reasons, but that’s because you are NOT an evangelical Protestant! You have to get into someone else’s skin and try hard to see it from their point of view.

1. Mass Holy?! Not to an evangelical! Evangelicals see it as a big fancy piece of theater, but not nearly as entertaining as real theater. To an evangelical, PEOPLE are holy, not buildings or pictures or statues or organs or a piece of bread in a box.
2. Statues–many evangelicals take the commandment about “no graven images” very seriously and consider such things idolatrous. Even if they know that the Catholics are just honoring the memory of great saints, they still believe that many Catholic Churches glorify men over Jesus Christ because they see more images of Mary and the saints than Jesus. (They do not realize or accept that Jesus is Truly Present in the Tabernacle.)
3. The Crucifix. Evangelicals believe that we serve a RISEN Lord, and they do not often contemplate a dead Christ.
4. The music. Face it, most Catholic music is dead as a doornail and most of the people at Mass do not even open the hymnal, let alone sing. Although some evangelicals enjoy ancient styles of music, most do not. They expect rousing traditional hymns, choruses, and Gospel solos, sung “lustily” in the words of one of the Wesley brothers. To an evangelical, if the music is so dead, the people must be “dead” in their souls, too.
5. The unfriendliness. Evangelicals expect people to come up to them and introduce themselves and ask if they are visitors. When Catholics ignore everyone around them to sit staring stone-faced staring at a box, the evangelical thinks, “Where is the love here?”
6. Open-eyed prayer. This is extremely strange to most evangelicals. The very idea of leaving your eyes open to pray! They assume that most of the people aren’t praying at all, but just marking time and waiting for it all to be over so they can go home and drink.
7. The homily. Evangelicals are used to hearing a three-point sermon taught by a pastor holding an OPEN Bible, and they want it to last for at least 20 minutes, preferably longer. Most of the sermons in evangelical churches last at least 45 minutes. A five-minute “meditation” is not acceptable, especially if there is no “meat” in the homily.
8. Noisy children and babies. Evangelicals learn by listening. When they can’t hear, they don’t learn. In evangelical churches, babies are left in the nursery, or they are taken out IMMEDIATELY. And children generally attend Children’s Church, where they are taught age-appropriate lessons from the Bible, and songs that are meant for children, not old people. Babies and children will distract an evangelical.
9. Hypocrisy. This happens in the Protestant churches, too, but I think that in the Catholic Church, it happens more often because it’s OK for Catholics to attend Mass even if they are caught up in a sin. One of the “sins” that many evangelicals can’t tolerate is drinking alcohol. When they see a person sitting in the pew who they KNOW drinks, they have a hard time seeing that person as “holy.” Another sin is co-habiting. We ALL know Catholics who live together without being married. An evangelical doesn’t care WHAT happens at Mass–if it doesn’t affect human behavior, then it’s all a worthless bogus SHOW.
10. “Canned prayers.” Unacceptable to evangelicals. It’s all ritual and it means nothing. Evangelicals expect extemporaneous prayers straight from the heart.
11. Liturgy. A work of MAN! NOT HOLY! Ritualistic with occult and pagan origins. Downright frightening, especially when it’s done in Latin with chant. It smacks of the occult to an evangelical.
12. The transubstantiation. This is something that Protestants do not accept. They believe that Communion is merely a memorial, not an actual sacrifice. They consider it evil to continue to sacrifice Jesus over and over again.

I could go on and on and on! I know you’re screaming, NO, NO! They don’t understand.

That’s right. They don’t understand. Evangelical Protestants love to study, and it’s up to YOU to help them study and gain understanding.

And if you’d like, I can post the list of things in the Mass that WILL convince an Evangelical Protestant to become Catholic! It’s not totally hopeless.

I must say, you really hit the nail on the head with this one. Meaning, that from my personal experience being brought up Pentecostal/Holiness Church of God, this is exactly what I had heard my younger years [pre-teen to teen]. STUDYING is exactly what cemented the calling to the Catholic church. Once I did that first, I then went to Mass with a friend that showed me the ins and outs. After my first Mass was completely at HOME in the Catholic church. Just my :twocents:

 

[NotTooSmart]

Do you really want to know the answer to your question?

I was evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism.

I can list a dozen reasons off the top of my head why a Catholic Mass would not convince an evangelical Protestant to become Catholic. You won’t agree with these reasons, but that’s because you are NOT an evangelical Protestant! You have to get into someone else’s skin and try hard to see it from their point of view.

Wow somebody who gets it. Yaaaaaay.

1. Mass Holy?! Not to an evangelical! Evangelicals see it as a big fancy piece of theater, but not nearly as entertaining as real theater. To an evangelical, PEOPLE are holy, not buildings or pictures or statues or organs or a piece of bread in a box.

Theater, hmm not as much as confusing. The couple of times I’ve been I never know when to stand or kneel or whatever. Sometimes I feel I stick out. But yes, people are what matters.

1. Statues–many evangelicals take the commandment about “no graven images” very seriously and consider such things idolatrous. Even if they know that the Catholics are just honoring the memory of great saints, they still believe that many Catholic Churches glorify men over Jesus Christ because they see more images of Mary and the saints than Jesus. (They do not realize or accept that Jesus is Truly Present in the Tabernacle.)

The statues don’t bother me. To me they are just art. So is music. Maybe I am strange.

1. The Crucifix. Evangelicals believe that we serve a RISEN Lord, and they do not often contemplate a dead Christ.

The crucifix doesn’t bother me. In other news I also liked “The Passion of Christ”.

1. The music. Face it, most Catholic music is dead as a doornail and most of the people at Mass do not even open the hymnal, let alone sing. Although some evangelicals enjoy ancient styles of music, most do not. They expect rousing traditional hymns, choruses, and Gospel solos, sung “lustily” in the words of one of the Wesley brothers. To an evangelical, if the music is so dead, the people must be “dead” in their souls, too.

I’ve heard bad music in our churches too. So what.

1. The unfriendliness. Evangelicals expect people to come up to them and introduce themselves and ask if they are visitors. When Catholics ignore everyone around them to sit staring stone-faced staring at a box, the evangelical thinks, “Where is the love here?”

Perhaps. Didn’t bother me that much.

1. Open-eyed prayer. This is extremely strange to most evangelicals. The very idea of leaving your eyes open to pray! They assume that most of the people aren’t praying at all, but just marking time and waiting for it all to be over so they can go home and drink.

Doesn’t bother me either until I find the verse “Thou must pray with Thine eyes shut”

1. The homily. Evangelicals are used to hearing a three-point sermon taught by a pastor holding an OPEN Bible, and they want it to last for at least 20 minutes, preferably longer. Most of the sermons in evangelical churches last at least 45 minutes. A five-minute “meditation” is not acceptable, especially if there is no “meat” in the homily.

Yup…a biggie. When I go to church I want to be taught from the Word of God.

1. Noisy children and babies. Evangelicals learn by listening. When they can’t hear, they don’t learn. In evangelical churches, babies are left in the nursery, or they are taken out IMMEDIATELY. And children generally attend Children’s Church, where they are taught age-appropriate lessons from the Bible, and songs that are meant for children, not old people. Babies and children will distract an evangelical.

Nope, don’t care about that either. Jesus love church. I doubt they had a nursery when Peter and Paul went to church either. They just dealt with the little ones.

1. Hypocrisy. This happens in the Protestant churches, too, but I think that in the Catholic Church, it happens more often because it’s OK for Catholics to attend Mass even if they are caught up in a sin. One of the “sins” that many evangelicals can’t tolerate is drinking alcohol. When they see a person sitting in the pew who they KNOW drinks, they have a hard time seeing that person as “holy.” Another sin is co-habiting. We ALL know Catholics who live together without being married. An evangelical doesn’t care WHAT happens at Mass–if it doesn’t affect human behavior, then it’s all a worthless bogus SHOW.

A biggie. Although the few masses I have been too, I really didn’t know the people so it didn’t bother me. Although I know good Christians in my church who drunk in moderation. I will allow myself a drink, but no more than once per month on average.

But I will say this again in this thread. You all clain to be a superior faith. You all claim to have the “fullness of truth”. You call claim to have the “real presence” and at the same time claim that we do not. But until all of these claims lead in my mind to a demonstrably superior faith Monday through Saturday, I’m not buying into it.

1. “Canned prayers.” Unacceptable to evangelicals. It’s all ritual and it means nothing. Evangelicals expect extemporaneous prayers straight from the heart.

Doesn’t bother me in principle. But yeah, I would love to hear a prayer from the heart also.

1. Liturgy. A work of MAN! NOT HOLY! Ritualistic with occult and pagan origins. Downright frightening, especially when it’s done in Latin with chant. It smacks of the occult to an evangelical.

Doesn’t bother me. At the same time it doesn’t particularly float my boat. I don’t get the “in Latin” stuff.

1. The transubstantiation. This is something that Protestants do not accept. They believe that Communion is merely a memorial, not an actual sacrifice. They consider it evil to continue to sacrifice Jesus over and over again.

Actually that doesn’t bother me either. Doesn’t mean I buy into it totally though. I don’t think I can Scripturally prove the real presence false. Another thread though.

Still an excellent post as I might be the oddball here. I guess I am better at letting things slide though.

 

[NotTooSmart]

OneTrueCathApos, it sounds like you have a heart for evangelizing Protestants and bringing them home to the One True Church. That’s so nice!

But please be careful and try not to be so glib about accusing Protestants of interpreting Scripture incorrectly. You’ll get a lot further by respecting their knowledge, their scholarship, and yes, their interpretations, even though you disagree with many of their interpretations. Telling them that they have it all wrong is not going to build any bridges between you and Protestants. You can see already from my answer to your OP that there are a lot of things that you don’t understand about Protestants. They’re not as simple as you think.

Umm yes.

There has been a lot of Protestant scholarship through the centuries and today as well. John Calvin alone is amazing in his bra(name removed by moderator)ower (yes, I think he taught heresy). Modetn scholars like John R.W. Stott, R.C. Sproul, F.F. Bruce, J.I. Packer, and others are extremely well-read, knowledgeable in the ancient languages, in ancient history, and in the science of textual criticism. They are not country-hick fool yahoos who pick and choose passages that appeal to their emotions and ignore anything that’s too hard for them to comprehend.

R.C. Sproul in particular is fascinating for Catholics to read, as he actually DEFENDS much of Catholicism. (His main problem with Catholicism is the doctrine of indulgences.)

I would suggest that you get a copy of John R.W. Stott’s Basic Christianity. It will help you to get a feeling for the depth of knowledge and wisdom that these scholars have. John R.W. Stott is beloved by evangelicals for his loving, pastoral heart, too. He did a lot of good in the 1970s when the “charismatic movement” split so many Protestant churches. He brought reason and knowledge to the frey and made peace.

As I have said to others on this Board, it is entirely possible to read a document (or Scripture) and have different interpretations. Even the Catholic Church Bible scholars do not agree on the correct interpretation of every passage of Scripture.

Many of the non-scholarly Protestants (I would have classed myself this way) learn from these great Protestant scholars by reading their books.

Think of that. We actually have men of God that are serious about the Word of God.

 

[NotTooSmart]

OK, I’ll try.

1. By this shall all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love one for another. John 13: 36.

OneTrueCathApos, It’s not God’s Word or good apologetics that convinces Protestants–it’s love. That’s what Jesus said. Catholics are very very good at showing love to the poor and the disenfranchised in this world. But we are often very bad at showing love to the strangers and to the Protestant who are visiting our Mass.

(or to the Protestants who visit these forums)

Absolutely. Again, since you claim to be a superior faith in relationship to us, my expectations are greater from y’all.

1. The Word of God. Liturgical Protestant churches (mainlines) are used to the various readings, the Psalm, and the Gospel. Evangelicals are NOT used to this, and it is very refreshing to them to hear so much of God’s Word. Just one thing–the evangelical Protestant believes that the Catholic Bible is a different Bible, so they are reading their Bibles to compare and try to find the differences. (There really aren’t any, except for the Deuterocanonicals.). So here’s a suggestion to Catholics who would like to evangelize Protestants in their midst–bring your BIBLE to church, and read the readings out of the Bible, not the missallette. Any Protestants who are sitting near you will be impressed, and it makes them feel more comfortable, because that is what THEY are doing.

Again, one biggie on any church that I attend is that I be taught the Word of God.

I want any church that I attend help me grow as a Christian and impact my life Monday through Saturday.

1. The Processional. Yes, this is very inspiring to evangelicals, especially as they see the Word of God carried aloft and honored. I remember wondering why the heck Protestant churches don’t make a bigger fuss over the Bible!
2. The Sign of the Cross. The Cross is a belief that Catholics and Protestants hold in common. Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. Many Protestants have no objection to this sign, especially when they remember Ephesians 3: 14-18, especially v 18.
3. Kneeling. Many Protestant kneel in private prayers, but they can’t during their church services because the pews are too close and there are no kneelers. Some kneel anyway–my husband always did, by facing the back of the pew.
4. The Creed. This is something else that all Christians hold in common. Most evangelicals never recite creeds, but they are in the back of their hymnals.
5. A good pithy homily centered on the BIBLE. Yes, it would be better if it was longer and had three points and alliteration. But as long as it is BIBLICAL, the Protestant will appreciate it.
6. The prayer time. Many Protestants find pastoral prayers rather dull, even though they would never admit that. But in the Catholic Mass, the PEOPLE respond (Lord, hear our prayer). Protestants recognize Matthew 18:20 in action.
7. The Communion. In many evangelical Protestant churches, communion is held sporadically, and some have relegated it to a loaf of bread and a bottle of grape juice on a table and help yourself. It is a joy to see the Bible come to life in the Communion time. Even if Protestants don’t believe in the True Presence, they still believe that Communion is done in memory of the Lord Jesus.
8. The music. Yes, the music. As long as it is SINCERE. Many evangelicals are tired of the theatrical music at their churches. It’s so nice to sing out of a hymnal (or missallette) instead of from an overhead, and it’s so nice to have a real hymn (old or new, it doesn’t matter) instead of a repetitious praise and worship chorus. And although I know that many of the traditionalist on the board deplore the Haugen and Haas songs, many of these songs touch the heart of the evangelical Protestant. The first time I ever heard Gather Us In, I cried, and after the Mass, I wrote it all down on a piece of paper so that I could take it out and read it at work. I know, it’s not deep theology, but it meets the Protestant where they are. I think these “bridge” songs between Protestants and Catholics are good to include in the Mass for the sake of the strangers among us. It’s no different than you making sure that there is at least one thing at your dinner table that a guest likes–it’s hospitality, and that’s a Gift of the Holy Spirit.
9. The Lord’s Prayer (or Our Father). At LAST! something that the Protestant knows! However, he/she will be embarrassed when they go on to say the doxology. Oh, well.
10. The Lifting up of the Lord in the Consecration. This is straight out of the Bible–John 12:32. I believe it is at this time that many evangelical Protestants realize that yes, that really is JESUS up there on the altar.

Again with all of this stuff, it may or may not float my boat but at the same time it doesn’t bother me particularly.

I recognize the diversity in the body of Christ and will respect the right of any congregation to do church differently than we do it in Assemblies of God.

 

[NotTooSmart]

I’m afraid I didn’t make myself clear.

I agree, a person shouldn’t join a church because of love. You can find love in a bar or an ice skating rink or in any organization in which you have a common interest with others.

But love will attract seekers, including Protestants. There has to be an initial reason why the Protestant even begins to investigate Catholicism, and more often than not, it is the love that the Catholics show for each other.

JESUS said it, not me–“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

There has to be something that tells the Protestant that Catholics are true disciples of Jesus, and that “something”, according to Jesus, will be love for one another. That’s what JESUS said, not Cat.

Once the Protestant or other seeker is convinced, because of the love that they show to one another, that Catholics are, indeed, real Christians, not followers of some kind of pagan cult, THEN the Protestant may be willing to do some serious study and compare the Catholic Church and Her teachings to the Word of God. I agree with you, the Protestant will see how the Word of God is, indeed, Catholic, and the Catholic Church is, indeed, in line perfectly with the Word of God.

But it all starts with love, according to our Lord.

Again…umm yes.

Hmm the first Catholic poster here I’ve read I’m impressed with. :clapping:

I guess I can’t come away with generalizations either way.

 

[WASP]

Do you really want to know the answer to your question?

I was evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism.

I can list a dozen reasons off the top of my head why a Catholic Mass would not convince an evangelical Protestant to become Catholic. You won’t agree with these reasons, but that’s because you are NOT an evangelical Protestant! You have to get into someone else’s skin and try hard to see it from their point of view.

1. Mass Holy?! Not to an evangelical! Evangelicals see it as a big fancy piece of theater, but not nearly as entertaining as real theater. To an evangelical, PEOPLE are holy, not buildings or pictures or statues or organs or a piece of bread in a box.
2. Statues–many evangelicals take the commandment about “no graven images” very seriously and consider such things idolatrous. Even if they know that the Catholics are just honoring the memory of great saints, they still believe that many Catholic Churches glorify men over Jesus Christ because they see more images of Mary and the saints than Jesus. (They do not realize or accept that Jesus is Truly Present in the Tabernacle.)
3. The Crucifix. Evangelicals believe that we serve a RISEN Lord, and they do not often contemplate a dead Christ.
4. The music. Face it, most Catholic music is dead as a doornail and most of the people at Mass do not even open the hymnal, let alone sing. Although some evangelicals enjoy ancient styles of music, most do not. They expect rousing traditional hymns, choruses, and Gospel solos, sung “lustily” in the words of one of the Wesley brothers. To an evangelical, if the music is so dead, the people must be “dead” in their souls, too.
5. The unfriendliness. Evangelicals expect people to come up to them and introduce themselves and ask if they are visitors. When Catholics ignore everyone around them to sit staring stone-faced staring at a box, the evangelical thinks, “Where is the love here?”
6. Open-eyed prayer. This is extremely strange to most evangelicals. The very idea of leaving your eyes open to pray! They assume that most of the people aren’t praying at all, but just marking time and waiting for it all to be over so they can go home and drink.
7. The homily. Evangelicals are used to hearing a three-point sermon taught by a pastor holding an OPEN Bible, and they want it to last for at least 20 minutes, preferably longer. Most of the sermons in evangelical churches last at least 45 minutes. A five-minute “meditation” is not acceptable, especially if there is no “meat” in the homily.
8. Noisy children and babies. Evangelicals learn by listening. When they can’t hear, they don’t learn. In evangelical churches, babies are left in the nursery, or they are taken out IMMEDIATELY. And children generally attend Children’s Church, where they are taught age-appropriate lessons from the Bible, and songs that are meant for children, not old people. Babies and children will distract an evangelical.
9. Hypocrisy. This happens in the Protestant churches, too, but I think that in the Catholic Church, it happens more often because it’s OK for Catholics to attend Mass even if they are caught up in a sin. One of the “sins” that many evangelicals can’t tolerate is drinking alcohol. When they see a person sitting in the pew who they KNOW drinks, they have a hard time seeing that person as “holy.” Another sin is co-habiting. We ALL know Catholics who live together without being married. An evangelical doesn’t care WHAT happens at Mass–if it doesn’t affect human behavior, then it’s all a worthless bogus SHOW.
10. “Canned prayers.” Unacceptable to evangelicals. It’s all ritual and it means nothing. Evangelicals expect extemporaneous prayers straight from the heart.
11. Liturgy. A work of MAN! NOT HOLY! Ritualistic with occult and pagan origins. Downright frightening, especially when it’s done in Latin with chant. It smacks of the occult to an evangelical.
12. The transubstantiation. This is something that Protestants do not accept. They believe that Communion is merely a memorial, not an actual sacrifice. They consider it evil to continue to sacrifice Jesus over and over again.

I could go on and on and on! I know you’re screaming, NO, NO! They don’t understand.

That’s right. They don’t understand. Evangelical Protestants love to study, and it’s up to YOU to help them study and gain understanding.

And if you’d like, I can post the list of things in the Mass that WILL convince an Evangelical Protestant to become Catholic! It’s not totally hopeless.

I couldn’t have said it better myself. Wonderful post!

 

[NotTooSmart]

I would say that perhaps you should get to know more Catholics. I have known and currently know quite a few Catholics who follow Jesus closely and are becoming more like Him everyday. Yes, there are duds, but there are a lot of saints, too.

This may be the case. I knew one family as a child where this was definitely the case.

However, your claim is that you are a superior faith in relationship to us. From any faith that claims to be “superior” to us, I expect to see a “superior” outworking of this faith from Monday to Saturday. Otherwise I will conclude that you are just as messed up as we are and I will stay where I am thank you very much.

And I would say that perhaps you should delve a little deeper into Protestant life. I have known and currently know Evangelical Protestants who are living a double life and whose walk does not match their talk.

This is true.

The problem is, Evangelical Protestants who live a sinful lifestyle are not welcome to come to church until they’ve cleaned up their act, so you never meet them. Meanwhile, Catholics living in blatant sin are still welcome to come to Mass, and you DO see them. So your impressions are rather skewed of both groups.

Actually, they are welcome in our church. You just can’t serve in leadership. I heard a great message a while back about belonging before believing and how a church should be welcoming to sinners.

But isn’t it a mortal sin for any Catholic who is living in sin and doesn’t go to confession to take communion?