Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jon_S_1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
We have had the same Canon since 397. Do you
mean to say Erasmus and Cajetan produced a different Bible?
No. I am saying they disputed some of the books. More importantly, they had the Catholic privilege to do so. Erasmus questioned James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation, and Cajetan wrote about the DC’s:
“Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.”
It isn’t until Trent that Catholics are bound to a 73 book canon.

Jon
 
I would suspect Catholics are bound to the 73 book canon, though I do not know what kind of flexibility there is regarding the canon and unity, from a Catholic POV.

Jon
The only reason this discussion is so prominent in Catholic/Protestant relations is because of Protestants refusal to accept a 73 book canon.

This is understandable as it undermines sola Scriptura (if their Scriptura was missing something for 400 years).

But the same debate and discussion is simply not found in Orthodox Catholic relations.
 
The Orthodox do not accept the teaching of the indelible character of the sacrament of Holy Orders. They simply don’t. I’m quite sure of this. I used to be Orthodox. I’ve read a good bit of Orthodox theological writings, some of which have addressed this matter. If you don’t believe me, why don’t you ask Fr. John Morris, an Orthodox Archpriest on this forum. He’s written on the matter.
Thanks for the additional clarification, Ryan.
 
The only reason this discussion is so prominent in Catholic/Protestant relations is because of Protestants refusal to accept a 73 book canon.

This is understandable as it undermines sola Scriptura (if their Scriptura was missing something for 400 years).

But the same debate and discussion is simply not found in Orthodox Catholic relations.
I have no problem with a 73 book canon. Of course, that isn’t the general Evangelical/Reformed view.
 
No. I am saying they disputed some of the books. More importantly, they had the Catholic privilege to do so. Erasmus questioned James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation, and Cajetan wrote about the DC’s:

It isn’t until Trent that Catholics are bound to a 73 book canon.

Jon
Jon we went through this already. There is a difference
between disputing and physically changing the Scriptures.

For instance I’m free to believe everything written about
Mary attributed to John the Theologian. And I do.
pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/texts/dormitionG2/dormitionG2.htm

What I’m not allowed to do is put the account by
John the Theologian IN the Bible as either an interesting
tidbit or inspired Gospel.

There is NO disputing Luther physically altered the
Scriptures.
A catholic priest is not allowed to do so before or
after Trent.
 
Originally Posted by **Jon S **
The only reason this discussion is so prominent in Catholic/Protestant relations is because of Protestants refusal to accept a 73 book canon.
This is understandable as it undermines sola Scriptura (if their Scriptura was missing something for 400 years).
But the same debate and discussion is simply not found in Orthodox Catholic relations.
I have no problem with a 73 book canon. Of course, that isn’t the general Evangelical/Reformed view.
Exactly. And the practice of sola scriptura would notbe /is not effected by the inclusion or exclusion of the Deuterocanon, from a Lutheran perspective, as either way they are not homologoumena.
I rather like the point that Cajetan makes about their use for the edification of the faithful, and in confirming matters of faith, thus one could consider them “canon” for those purposes.

Jon
 
Jon we went through this already. There is a difference
between disputing and physically changing the Scriptures.

For instance I’m free to believe everything written about
Mary attributed to John the Theologian. And I do.
pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/texts/dormitionG2/dormitionG2.htm

What I’m not allowed to do is put the account by
John the Theologian IN the Bible as either an interesting
tidbit or inspired Gospel.

There is NO disputing Luther physically altered the
Scriptures.
A catholic priest is not allowed to do so before or
after Trent.
He only altered them by changing the order, not dogmatic that I know of, and adding the Prayer of Manasseh. Cajetan says they are not in the canon. He says, here closes the canon.

Jon
 
I think largely because of the Maccabbean/purgatory argument from the Catholic side.
It’s more than just Purgatory. The point before and after
Trent priests are not free to alter a. Sacred Doctrine
by B. rearranging the Bible to support their doctrinal
alterations. Which is EXACTLY what Luther did and
exactly what thousands of Protestant groups have done
ever since. It’s too too much like- hello Watergate. Shred
the evidence and no one will know, right?
 
None of the Eastern Catholic Churches, in full Communion with Rome, consider the Latin Vulgate their Canonical text. Each have a different Canon, and did not alter it when Union with Rome was proposed or accepted. It never even came up as something to be discussed, my Church, the Syro-Malankara Church - along with the Syriac, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian Church of the East, Syriac Orthodox, and Malankara Orthodox - consider the Syriac Peshitto the Canonical Bible for our Churches. The Latin Church, nor the Pope, nor anyone else has ever challenged this, and never will.
 
None of the Eastern Catholic Churches, in full Communion with Rome, consider the Latin Vulgate their Canonical text. Each have a different Canon, and did not alter it when Union with Rome was proposed or accepted. It never even came up as something to be discussed, my Church, the Syro-Malankara Church - along with the Syriac, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian Church of the East, Syriac Orthodox, and Malankara Orthodox - consider the Syriac Peshitto the Canonical Bible for our Churches. The Latin Church, nor the Pope, nor anyone else has ever challenged this, and never will.
At the same time though none of the Churches named above
are altering the Roman Canon to suit their individual
doctrinal changes either, are they?
But Luther did.
 
Those books don’t bother me; not sure why they bother anyone.
This is the opinion of most knowledgeable Protestant academics.

Unfortunately that is a small group.

The many many denominational statements, individual opinions, and pastors would be outraged by such a statement as it completely changes the view and understanding of what the Bible is.
 
Well I think I have a grasp of why Protestants become Catholic. At least for myself and in reading a number of conversions.

I suppose my question is more of how can any Protestant not become Catholic when seriously looking at history? With what grounding do you hold your interpretation (or denominations interpretation) of scripture and what it means to be a Christian?
As a former Catholic, my question is “When seriously looking at history, how can any christianist remain that, especially a Catholic?” I completely, save for one small bit, agree with Publisher in post #2 this thread. You see, your question skips a number of important steps. You just went from being a “christian” to being a “christian.” After the third century, it is doubtful that any notion of what the original teaching was has remained intact, if there was any left even at that point. By original teaching I mean what surely must be referenced in Mark (who didn’t write that, as didn’t any of the four evangelists write theirs) 4:33,34.

Seriously: how did that get past the censors, or anyone thinking about the validity of the completeness of what’s recorded as alleged public teaching? So the question about the thread title might well be:

“What makes anyone think that any denomination, including Catholic, holds an allegedly holdable ‘truth?’”

And if you think one does: “What is the nature of that ‘truth’ and how might I be holding it vis a vi my practical knowledge and experience in epistemology, history, ancient languages, translation, interpretation (& by what standards,) literary criticism–including but way not limited to knowledge of literary standards of the time, idiom, semiotics, general semantics, the natures of witnessing, comprehension, reportage, collections, corruption of various kinds and degrees, credentials and abilities of those making decisions re scripture and dogma from inclusion to interpretation to pastoral policy, phenomenology of religion and, in general, the psychology of belief, and all of the above and more under the chief heading of the phenomenal ability of the human mind to make stuff up and believe it as if it was Reality.”
 
As a former Catholic, my question is “When seriously looking at history, how can any christianist remain that, especially a Catholic?” I completely, save for one small bit, agree with Publisher in post #2 this thread. You see, your question skips a number of important steps. You just went from being a “christian” to being a “christian.” After the third century, it is doubtful that any notion of what the original teaching was has remained intact, if there was any left even at that point. By original teaching I mean what surely must be referenced in Mark (who didn’t write that, as didn’t any of the four evangelists write theirs) 4:33,34.

Seriously: how did that get past the censors, or anyone thinking about the validity of the completeness of what’s recorded as alleged public teaching? So the question about the thread title might well be:

“What makes anyone think that any denomination, including Catholic, holds an allegedly holdable ‘truth?’”

And if you think one does: “What is the nature of that ‘truth’ and how might I be holding it vis a vi my practical knowledge and experience in epistemology, history, ancient languages, translation, interpretation (& by what standards,) literary criticism–including but way not limited to knowledge of literary standards of the time, idiom, semiotics, general semantics, the natures of witnessing, comprehension, reportage, collections, corruption of various kinds and degrees, credentials and abilities of those making decisions re scripture and dogma from inclusion to interpretation to pastoral policy, phenomenology of religion and, in general, the psychology of belief, and all of the above and more under the chief heading of the phenomenal ability of the human mind to make stuff up and believe it as if it was Reality.”
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Matt 16:18

15 ‘If you love me, you will keep[f] my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate,[g] to be with you for ever. 17 This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in[h] you…25 ‘I have said these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate,* the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. 27

John 14

Did Jesus not mean what he said??*
 
As a former Catholic, my question is “When seriously looking at history, how can any christianist remain that, especially a Catholic?” I completely, save for one small bit, agree with Publisher in post #2 this thread. You see, your question skips a number of important steps. You just went from being a “christian” to being a “christian.” After the third century, it is doubtful that any notion of what the original teaching was has remained intact, if there was any left even at that point. By original teaching I mean what surely must be referenced in Mark (who didn’t write that, as didn’t any of the four evangelists write theirs) 4:33,34.

Seriously: how did that get past the censors, or anyone thinking about the validity of the completeness of what’s recorded as alleged public teaching? So the question about the thread title might well be:

“What makes anyone think that any denomination, including Catholic, holds an allegedly holdable ‘truth?’”

And if you think one does: “What is the nature of that ‘truth’ and how might I be holding it vis a vi my practical knowledge and experience in epistemology, history, ancient languages, translation, interpretation (& by what standards,) literary criticism–including but way not limited to knowledge of literary standards of the time, idiom, semiotics, general semantics, the natures of witnessing, comprehension, reportage, collections, corruption of various kinds and degrees, credentials and abilities of those making decisions re scripture and dogma from inclusion to interpretation to pastoral policy, phenomenology of religion and, in general, the psychology of belief, and all of the above and more under the chief heading of the phenomenal ability of the human mind to make stuff up and believe it as if it was Reality.”
Well ok can’t trust anything past 3 AD?
Go back to the 1AD haha.
There is the Didache
churchyear.net/lentfatherscomplete.pdf

There is Josephus

There is the Torah and Talmud.

Start at 1.
 
It’s more than just Purgatory. The point before and after
Trent priests are not free to alter a. Sacred Doctrine
by B. rearranging the Bible to support their doctrinal
alterations. Which is EXACTLY what Luther did and
exactly what thousands of Protestant groups have done
ever since. It’s too too much like- hello Watergate. Shred
the evidence and no one will know, right?
Not from our side, Mary. Our Confessions don’t list a canon, and the Augsburg Confession refers to the DC books as Scripture 🤷
 
This is the opinion of most knowledgeable Protestant academics.

Unfortunately that is a small group.

The many many denominational statements, individual opinions, and pastors would be outraged by such a statement as it completely changes the view and understanding of what the Bible is.
These tend to come from the Reformed Confessions, yes, such as the Westminster Confession and Belgic Confession, which explicit name the DC books as uninspired human writings.

All of the second generation Lutheran figures who formulated the Book of Concord held the DC books as Scriptural, just not on the same doctrinal level as the homologoumena.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top