Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?

[ltwin]

So what about Justin Martyr? What are your thoughts on that? How does that relate to the “free moving of the spirit”

Well, it’s really not that dramatically different from modern Christian worship. Of course, there is no hint yet of all the smells and bells and pageantry of liturgical rites.

In fact, with the exception of Communion, it looks more like a low church, evangelical service than a liturgical one.

As it relates to the freedom in worship if Paul wrote 1 Corinthians circa 54 AD, then Justin Martyr is writing at least 100 years later. That’s plenty of time for the free moving of the Spirit to be reigned in. That’s pretty much all my thoughts.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I appreciate the discussion ltwin it was enlightening.

I still feel the original question is unanswered.

How do Protestants determine what the one truth is with any certainty outside if the relativism of personal opinion?

 

[ltwin]

I appreciate the discussion ltwin it was enlightening.

I still feel the original question is unanswered.

How do Protestants determine what the one truth is with any certainty outside if the relativism of personal opinion?

I’d like Catholics to answer that one.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’d like Catholics to answer that one.

Catholics to answer how we know what the one truth is ?

I can work on that, I would want it a bit more formally laid out so I will try tomorrow. Anyone else jump in in the meantime!

 

[JonNC]

I am a former Evangelical, and I never asked myself this question, but when I did, I personally saw no other alternative than Catholicism or Orthodoxy. The roots of the tree were there, and the closer to the time if Christ, the more Catholic it looked.

So, if any of you have found another method besides history to determine the true expression of Christian faithfulness in a Protestant denomination, I’d love to hear it.

Thanks!

I have always liked the approach Melanchthon takes in his writing of Article X of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.Defending the doctrine of the real presence, he uses various scripture references, followed by support for them from the Early Church Fathers, and the historic Church, both east and west.
ISTM this blend of scripture, witnessed to by the Fathers and the Church, provides a rather convincing defense of doctrine.

Jon

 

[dronald]

Hey Jon S; I’m curious if you (or other Catholics for that matter) still agree with every word written at the Fourth Council of the Lateran, Canon 3:

fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

“so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath.”

If not, how could one determine that the Church was speaking falsely at that time? Thanks Jon.

 

[rinnie]

Though I’m not one to speak for Publisher, the idea of priests as they exist within Catholic theology is not deplorable so much as it is totally ignoring the book of Hebrews. That book demonstrates that the priestly caste within Israel was a foreshadowing of Christ and is culminated and completed in Him. Christ is THE priest and there is no need for any others. Because the Church is His body, all members of His body share in that priestly office. Now, of course, there are those who are specifically called to the Office of the Ministry, but the ministry is not the OT priesthood.

If there is no need for Priests why did Jesus go to the Apostles on Pentecost and tell then to Receive the Holy Spirit go and forgive sins in my name?

Why can’t I forgive sins in his name? Why can’t a Protestant Preacher forgive sins in the name of Jesus?

 

[JonNC]

If there is no need for Priests why did Jesus go to the Apostles on Pentecost and tell then to Receive the Holy Spirit go and forgive sins in my name?

Why can’t I forgive sins in his name? Why can’t a Protestant Preacher forgive sins in the name of Jesus?

Not speaking for Per Crucem, but I think you misunderstand. We believe our clergy can pronounce absolution!
From the Smalcald Articles

Part III, Article VII. Of the Keys.

1] The keys are an office and power given by Christ to the Church for binding and loosing sin, not only the gross and well-known sins, but also the subtle, hidden, which are known only to God, as it is written in Ps. 19:13: Who can understand his errors? And in Rom. 7:25 St. Paul himself complains that with the flesh he serves the law of sin. 2] For it is not in our power, but belongs to God alone, to judge which, how great, and how many the sins are, as it is written in Ps. 143:2: Enter not into judgment with Thy servant; for in Thy sight shall no man living be justified. 3] And Paul says, 1 Cor. 4:4: For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified.

So, not only do we not claim there is no need for the ordained ministry, we vigorously defend it.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hey Jon S; I’m curious if you (or other Catholics for that matter) still agree with every word written at the Fourth Council of the Lateran, Canon 3:

fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

“so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath.”

If not, how could one determine that the Church was speaking falsely at that time? Thanks Jon.

Well I would love a response to the question I asked in the thread. I don’t see how your question applies. It applies to Christian nation states which doesn’t apply today. I think you would agree though that for countries treason is a crime right? If a group of Priests in the Vatican became Mormons and overtook the Vatican preaching their heresy and trying to convert the pilgrims and the other priests , you would not expect them to just allow that would you?

Anyway I don’t see how it relates to this thread , maybe I am missing something.

Here is a link to answer your question in great detail;

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=8893

 

[Per_Crucem]

If there is no need for Priests why did Jesus go to the Apostles on Pentecost and tell then to Receive the Holy Spirit go and forgive sins in my name?

When were Levitical priests called to go and forgive sins in God’s name? That is, I’m not sure why the above requires a sacerdotal priesthood. The biblical and apostolic office of the called ministry is sufficient.

Why can’t I forgive sins in his name? Why can’t a Protestant Preacher forgive sins in the name of Jesus?

You can. You’re just not called by a congregation to do so, however.

 

[rinnie]

When were Levitical priests called to go and forgive sins in God’s name? That is, I’m not sure why the above requires a sacerdotal priesthood. The biblical and apostolic office of the called ministry is sufficient.

You can. You’re just not called by a congregation to do so, however.

How? How can a Protestant Priest forgive sins without Holy Orders?

 

[dronald]

How? How can a Protestant Priest forgive sins without Holy Orders?

By accepting your apology?

 

[rinnie]

Not speaking for Per Crucem, but I think you misunderstand. We believe our clergy can pronounce absolution!
From the Smalcald Articles

So, not only do we not claim there is no need for the ordained ministry, we vigorously defend it.

Jon

My bad I did misinterpret what Per Crucem said.

 

[dronald]

Well I would love a response to the question I asked in the thread. I don’t see how your question applies. It applies to Christian nation states which doesn’t apply today. I think you would agree though that for countries treason is a crime right? If a group of Priests in the Vatican became Mormons and overtook the Vatican preaching their heresy and trying to convert the pilgrims and the other priests , you would not expect them to just allow that would you?

Anyway I don’t see how it relates to this thread , maybe I am missing something.

Here is a link to answer your question in great detail;

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=8893

I just don’t know how I would know whether or not to agree with such a canon during that time. I suppose I wouldn’t have any choice but to agree with it, but would I be wrong for joining a Church that disagrees with the extermination of heretics?

 

[Per_Crucem]

How? How can a Protestant Priest forgive sins without Holy Orders?

That would be begging the question.

A Christian can forgive sins because, as a member of the Body of Christ, he shares in the priesthood of Christ. However, ministers are called and ordained in order to perform those functions for the congregation.

 

[rinnie]

By accepting your apology?

If I am in a state of Mortal Sin how could me apologizing to a Protestant Preacher free me from Mortal Sin?

Where does he have authority to forgive sin in the name of God and give me absolution from my sin?

 

[dronald]

If I am in a state of Mortal Sin how could me apologizing to a Protestant Preacher free me from Mortal Sin?

Where does he have authority to forgive sin in the name of God and give me absolution from my sin?

Because you feel sorry for it and have repented of it. I doubt God ignores a repentant sinner.

 

[JonNC]

How? How can a Protestant Priest forgive sins without Holy Orders?

I’m not aware of a such thing as a “protestant priest”, since there is no Protestant Church. The point, rinnie, is that one has to look at each communion.
As for Lutherans, our clergy are validly ordained, Catholic protestations notwithstanding, whether by Apostolic Succession or by presbyter ordination (leaving the question of women ordination aside for the moment).

Jon

 

[Per_Crucem]

Well I would love a response to the question I asked in the thread. I don’t see how your question applies. It applies to Christian nation states which doesn’t apply today. I think you would agree though that for countries treason is a crime right? If a group of Priests in the Vatican became Mormons and overtook the Vatican preaching their heresy and trying to convert the pilgrims and the other priests , you would not expect them to just allow that would you?

Well, no…but I wouldn’t expect that the Catholics would whip out swords and start butchering them, either.

Remember, though, it was Leo X that condemned Luther for not believing that it is the Holy Spirit who commands us to off heretics

 

[rinnie]

That would be begging the question.

A Christian can forgive sins because, as a member of the Body of Christ, he shares in the priesthood of Christ. However, ministers are called and ordained in order to perform those functions for the congregation.

Here is the big difference, I as a Christian can forgive you if you ask me. You say I am sorry I say I forgive you. Not only can a Christian forgive we are commanded by God to do so.

But I as a Christian can forgive YOU, but I have no power to forgive your sins in the name of God.

Lets say you commit mortal sin and say to me forgive me, so I say no problem its all good. Who am I to speak for God in his name.

Where and how did I get power from the Holy Spirit to forgive sin in HIS name. Sure I can forgive YOU for something YOU did to ME, God told me to do that. But how can I have the power to speak his voice?