Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?

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joe371 said:
Would you suggest that Jesus did not leave people with a way to know how to identify His church…the church of Matthew 16?
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The problem is not that he didn’t. The problem is your criteria for what constitutes the church of Matthew 16 is never mentioned by Jesus himself. So why would I accept it? And if a whole slew of church fathers didn’t accept it, so more the merrier.
 
Per_Crucem said:
The problem is not that he didn’t. The problem is your criteria for what constitutes the church of Matthew 16 is never mentioned by Jesus himself. So why would I accept it? And if a whole slew of church fathers didn’t accept it, so more the merrier.
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Jesus did in fact leave people with a way to know how to identify His church…the church of Matthew 16? How?

I admit that my interpretation,(as logical as it seems) could be wrong, which is why I defer to Jesus who teaches via His church. That is the reason why I believe what I believe.
 
Does the Lutheran Church have a Sacramental Priesthood like the Catholic Church conferred in three decrees in the Sacrament:
  1. Bishop
  2. Presbyter
  3. Deacon
And as was in the new testament and early Church Fathers with none writing against this???
 
Paul_Edwards said:
YOU are Peter and upon THIS rock…

THIS refers to the nearest preceding noun, YOU(Peter)

HA! 😉 😃
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Impossible to interpret it any other way…If I said: this is my boat, and on this boat…we would draw the same conclusion…👍 Not sure why this is such a big deal in certain Protestant circles…🤷
 
Paul_Edwards said:
Does the Lutheran Church have a Sacramental Priesthood like the Catholic Church conferred in three decrees in the Sacrament:
  1. Bishop
  2. Presbyter
  3. Deacon
And as was in the new testament and early Church Fathers with none writing against this???
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:dts:
 
joe371 said:
Impossible to interpret it any other way…If I said: this is my boat, and on this boat…we would draw the same conclusion…👍 Not sure why this is such a big deal in certain Protestant circles…🤷
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You would mean a ship next to it 😉
 
joe371 said:
LOL…In your opinion, what is the true position of the early Catholic Church on Matthew 16?
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The same as John Chrysostom, Hilary, et al 🙂 i.e., the 2/3rds of the church before 500 A.D. who didn’t see it as Peter alone, and of those who did see it as Peter, didn’t read a supreme, universal, jurisdictionally authoritative bishop successor to him.
 
joe371 said:
No. I don’t trust my interpretation in the final analysis. I trust that God preserves truth in His church, and defer to Jesus via His church, to settle doctrinal differences.
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And I’ve yet to see any infallible evidence that you can provide that will tell me which church that is. So, in your words, “how can I really know” which church that is?
 
joe371 said:
Jesus did in fact leave people with a way to know how to identify His church…the church of Matthew 16? How?

I admit that my interpretation,(as logical as it seems) could be wrong, which is why I defer to Jesus who teaches via His church. That is the reason why I believe what I believe.
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So Rome is right because Rome says so? And you claim this is logical?
 
Paul_Edwards said:
You would mean a ship next to it 😉
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The CCC even accepts both Peter as the rock on which Jesus’ church is built, as well as recognizing Peter’s confession:

552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286
 
joe371 said:
The CCC even accepts both Peter as the rock on which Jesus’ church is built, as well as recognizing Peter’s confession:

552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286
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Yeah 😃 and I was joking about the ship thing 😛
 
Per_Crucem said:
So Rome is right because Rome says so? And you claim this is logical?
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I was asking you if Jesus did in fact leave people with a way to know how to identify His church…the church of Matthew 16? How?

Then, I admitted that my interpretation,(as logical as it seems) could be wrong, which is why I defer to Jesus who teaches via His church. That is the reason why I believe what I believe.

I believe that the CC is the church established by Jesus, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem. Historically the CC is the church to which the apostles belonged…the church of Acts 2. As a former Protestant, I wanted to belong to the church of Acts 2.
Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues
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Per_Crucem said:
No, I would say Rome is about 50/50 🙂

Oh, and Scripture, history, etc.
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It sounds like you are suggesting that all churches, regardless of denomination, teach some truth mixed with untruth i.e. no one church is infallibly guided by God?
 
joe371 said:
I was asking you if Jesus did in fact leave people with a way to know how to identify His church…the church of Matthew 16? How?

Then, I admitted that my interpretation,(as logical as it seems) could be wrong, which is why I defer to Jesus who teaches via His church. That is the reason why I believe what I believe.

I believe that the CC is the church established by Jesus, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem. Historically the CC is the church to which the apostles belonged…the church of Acts 2. As a former Protestant, I wanted to belong to the church of Acts 2.
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The problem I have with your position joe, is not that you’ve examined history, Scripture, etc. to reach the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the true church. The problem I have is that you have done so and not held yourself to the same standards you hold non-Catholics to. If your view is that you could be wrong but you believe you’re right…I’m fine with that. But when it comes to us, it’s …“BLAAARRGGG, UNLESS YOU CAN KNOW SOMETHING INFALLIBLY, YOU CAN’T KNOW IT AT ALL…BLAAARG.”

Keep the same goal posts on both positions 🙂
 
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