Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?

[marywarfield]

After reading this it seems Christianity is subject to political winds. What does that say for Christianity in general?

Of course it WAS. You see that with the national
religions or with Henry VIII.

I would venture to guess this is the safest the
Vatican has been in so far as autonomy from
political forces in centuries, the United Nations
notwithstanding.

 

[JonNC]

Of course it WAS. You see that with the national
religions or with Henry VIII.

I would venture to guess this is the safest the
Vatican has been in so far as autonomy from
political forces in centuries, the United Nations
notwithstanding.

True that.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

benhur;11989618:

Personal trespass is Matt 18 primary context. [/QLUOTE]
Primary, maybe. But not exclusive.

Here’s an example.

Jill & John are a couple, unmarried, cohabitating.

Jill becomes pregnant.

She wants an abortion.

John, a MS Lutheran (albeit not a “good” Lutheran) says absolutely not; it’s against God’s law.

Jill, an ELCA Luthran (albeit not a “good” Lutheran) says that it’s up to the woman to decide in the context of good stewardship.

Now, this IS a matter of personal trespass, is it not? John wants to protect HIS CHILD’S LIFE.

To whom do they go to decide, according to Matt 18?

This is not just a thought experiment. It is real life. I lived through a very similar scenario!

I think we could all agree if we went to Jesus he would tell us what to do. If we went to the Apostles they would tell us what to do.

What happens now though? Why can’t we settle this problem anymore ?

Love to hear a response, or better yet a concession, Ben Hur!

 

[JonNC]

=FathersKnowBest;11999910
Here’s an example.

Jill & John are a couple, unmarried, cohabitating.

Jill becomes pregnant.

She wants an abortion.

John, a MS Lutheran (albeit not a “good” Lutheran) says absolutely not; it’s against God’s law.

Jill, an ELCA Luthran (albeit not a “good” Lutheran) says that it’s up to the woman to decide in the context of good stewardship.

Now, this IS a matter of personal trespass, is it not? John wants to protect HIS CHILD’S LIFE.

To whom do they go to decide, according to Matt 18?

Good question.
What if John is Catholic and Jill is PNCC? Is it still the same problem?

The sin of our division is quite on display by the scenarios.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

Good question.
What if John is Catholic and Jill is PNCC? Is it still the same problem?

The sin of our division is quite on display by the scenarios.

Jon

Jon

Yes if John is a Catholic and Jill is a PNCC then the same thing could happen (although both churches condemn abortion). This is because the PNCC is no more Catholic than any other Protestant group. To be Catholic is to be in union with the Bishop of Rome and to respect the authority of the church Christ established.

It is our division that is sinful. So one must trace the divisions back and ensure they are not following a schismatic.

 

[RyanBlack]

Yes if John is a Catholic and Jill is a PNCC then the same thing could happen (although both churches condemn abortion). This is because the PNCC is no more Catholic than any other Protestant group. To be Catholic is to be in union with the Bishop of Rome and to respect the authority of the church Christ established.

It is our division that is sinful. So one must trace the divisions back and ensure they are not following a schismatic.

The PNCC isn’t Protestant.

 

[Jon_S_1]

The PNCC isn’t Protestant.

It’s not in communion with Rome right?

It’s a so called “independent Catholic Church”

To me “independent” = Protestant

I get that they aren’t a product of the reformation but they are nonetheless protesting church authority.

 

[benhur]

This is fundamentally incorrect.

Yes the New Testament letters were written before the councils could collect them. But the New Testament did not exist as a 27 book volume until the council declared it so. Prior to that, people used any number of books maybe 10 maybe 30 or somewhere in between.

The idea that the early church walked around with a bound and collected bible is beyond ridiculous.

Yes, and a good thing I didn’t say that! Do you even know when the first complete nt was bound together ? What is the oldest one still around today?

 

[benhur]

FathersKnowBest;11999910:

This is not just a thought experiment. It is real life. I lived through a very similar scenario!

I think we could all agree if we went to Jesus he would tell us what to do. If we went to the Apostles they would tell us what to do.

What happens now though? Why can’t we settle this problem anymore ?

Love to hear a response, or better yet a concession, Ben Hur!

By the way,you may not like my church but I certainly do. I can’t imagine anyone being in a church where they did not feel they could get sound Christian advice. and of course we should be equally yoked in our marriages.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon S;12000036:

By the way,you may not like my church but I certainly do. I can’t imagine anyone being in a church where they did not feel they could get sound Christian advice. and of course we should be equally yoked in our marriages.

The problem with my marriage was my wife was groomed by a “Christian fringe group” aka “cult”.

Since the Bible alone was her authority she rejected any advice from our church of 25 years. They were just wrong in her opinion. There was no recourse since her interpretation of the Bible was right and there was no authority in the church to tell her otherwise.

 

[marywarfield]

benhur;12001026:

The problem with my marriage was my wife was groomed by a “Christian fringe group” aka “cult”.

Since the Bible alone was her authority she rejected any advice from our church of 25 years. They were just wrong in her opinion. There was no recourse since her interpretation of the Bible was right and there was no authority in the church to tell her otherwise.

Which means of course whether Benhur likes it
or not the only way to resolve a dispute like that among
Protestants is to consult the Catholic Church. Bummer
for the Protestants. Lol

 

[benhur]

Not exactly! Explain how one separates the Person from His own mystical body? It is about being in the right church or else Jesus would have not left one church.

Exactly ! How can you separate the Person from His own mystical body ? Yet isn’t that what we do by defining and insisting on the “right” church first and foremost ? May I repeat again, meeting the Person puts you in the Church, the Body. He “calls us out”. That is what the origin of “church” is, the called out ones, the ecclesia. “My sheep know my voice”. This is that effectual calling. Remember, even your ownCC lumen gentia or something says their is saving grace in other churches that you disagree with, that we meet the Person in them. the CC statement deals withe the fact that there are saved brethren, in the Mystical Body, outside the practicing Catholic Church

 

[benhur]

benhur;12001026:

The problem with my marriage was my wife was groomed by a “Christian fringe group” aka “cult”.

Since the Bible alone was her authority she rejected any advice from our church of 25 years. They were just wrong in her opinion. There was no recourse since her interpretation of the Bible was right and there was no authority in the church to tell her otherwise.

Sorry to hear of the marital friction ? We’re you being superfluous in saying she rejected any advice ? Was this over abortion ? Did she leave your church after all that time or was she in a cult before but then went to your church though she didn’t respect it ?

 

[benhur]

Jon S;12001032:

Which means of course whether Benhur likes it
or not the only way to resolve a dispute like that among
Protestants is to consult the Catholic Church. Bummer
for the Protestants. Lol

What is worse, going against your conscience or going against your church ? All Catholic marriage disputes are resolved ?

 

[marywarfield]

Exactly ! How can you separate the Person from His own mystical body ? Yet isn’t that what we do by defining and insisting on the “right” church first and foremost ? May I repeat again, meeting the Person puts you in the Church, the Body. He “calls us out”. That is what the origin of “church” is, the called out ones, the ecclesia. “My sheep know my voice”. This is that effectual calling. Remember, even your ownCC lumen gentia or something says their is saving grace in other churches that you disagree with, that we meet the Person in them. the CC statement deals withe the fact that there are saved brethren, in the Mystical Body, outside the practicing Catholic Church

Not exactly Benhur. You are ignoring the living
Communion of Saints and the Holy Mother as
part of the Mystical Body- a concept most Protestants
reject. The Church Militant- those of us on earth
are also part of that Mystical Body. The Church Suffering
are the souls in Purgatory- also a part of the Mystical
Body. And again a concept Protestants reject.
The idea that the Eucharist is the actual living real
presence of the Mystical Body is also rejected by
the symbolic only crowd.

And this disruption of the Mystical Body began
with Luther and his complete rejection of transubstantiation.
It grew outward from there.

So how can the Person be seperated from the
Mystical Body? Exactly an excellent question.

Short answer: only in the Catholic Church does
it remain whole and complete.

 

[marywarfield]

marywarfield;12001158:

What is worse, going against your conscience or going against your church ? All Catholic marriage disputes are resolved ?

If the conscience is well formed Benhur there is
no dichotomy between Church and conscience…

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon S;12001032:

Sorry to hear of the marital friction ? We’re you being superfluous in saying she rejected any advice ? Was this over abortion ? Did she leave your church after all that time or was she in a cult before but then went to your church though she didn’t respect it ?

No this was over our marriage and what Christian marriage is. She became very abusive to me and we divorced. We were both born and raised in our church, baptized there, married there, adult fellowship class leaders, active.

I was not being superfluous at all. The cult group was recommended by a friend and it destroyed our family. She said at one point the only way to truly love Christ was to hate her family. There was tons more that’s just a snip.

She did leave our church. (So did I obviously)

I am under no illusion that If we had been catholic it would have been any different.

What would have been different would be if there was one church and she was clearly following a different group. That Christian faith is x and she is choosing y.

Instead she followed “the Bible”. Protestantism created such chaos. It wasn’t perfect before the reformation but it was much much clearer and much more defined what being a Christian is.

 

[benhur]

benhur;12001233:

If the conscience is well formed Benhur there is
no dichotomy between Church and conscience…

so was Jon’s spouse as an example just being obedient to her church, to her grooming ? You still need obedience, well formed or not

 

[benhur]

benhur;12001216:

No this was over our marriage and what Christian marriage is. She became very abusive to me and we divorced. We were both born and raised in our church, baptized there, married there, adult fellowship class leaders, active.

I was not being superfluous at all. The cult group was recommended by a friend and it destroyed our family. She said at one point the only way to truly love Christ was to hate her family. There was tons more that’s just a snip.

She did leave our church. (So did I obviously)

I am under no illusion that If we had been catholic it would have been any different.

What would have been different would be if there was one church and she was clearly following a different group. That Christian faith is x and she is choosing y.

Instead she followed “the Bible”. Protestantism created such chaos. It wasn’t perfect before the reformation but it was much much clearer and much more defined what being a Christian is.

Thanks for sharing. Sorry for the pain. Their indeed seems to be chaos,just not sure if there is anything new under the sun. You are humble and broken enough to admit it wasn’t perfect before either, and I am sure there were other sources of chaos and pain .

 

[marywarfield]

marywarfield;12001250:

so was Jon’s spouse as an example just being obedient to her church, to her grooming ? You still need obedience, well formed or not

Probably she was. Yes. This is the problem with
cults. Heavy duty cults oppress free will therefore
conscience.
Believe it or not Benhur I’m not big on people
jumping ship and changing religions usually.
If God knocks them in the head with a grace of
conversion such as what Jon went through- that’s
one thing. But most people in my experience
don’t know their own religion well enough to really
know if there is a cause for conversion. And when
that happens obviously the conscience is NOT
formed and they end up bouncing around from
Church to Church never maturing spiritually.
Now heavy cults just make it worse- the ignorance
I mean becomes worse until yes a case for invincible
ignorance can be made.