Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?

[BeingSaved]

I confessed to a priest,inside the booth, last year, one sin, …this may sound strange but I heard something,…it wasn’t audible,…but it sounded loud, maybe I heard something spiritual,…not with my physical ears,…
get this, it sounded like thunder,…like a loud crack of thunder,…

my church and pastor are anti catholic, he is an x catholic,…
when I mentioned in an email the interest I had toward c., he became upset and asked me in to counsel,…he thinks people in the c.c. are not really ba, and that you’d be hard pressed to even find one ba c., in a whole church?

the catholic person I had talked to is male, and I am female, so I stopped talking to them last year and its been many months now since we conversed, not even over the net,…i thought I may have been attracted to him, and my pastor thought the same,…that it was really him I was interested in, not the cc.,

however, that interest hasn’t gone away,…although the catholic man has,…
my pastor became worried about me,…

this is all quite confusing,…my family is anti catholic and my church is too,…not toward the people but to the institution.

 

[BeingSaved]

jon,

when you were interested in c ways, did you note any particular effect on your person beside the relief in confession?

when I think of the scripture I discussed with the c. man, and what he explained about all the things that occur in the service,…i notice a sense, which again is not really a physical sensation, but it is close to one,…

it could be described like this, because it is very similar,…it is like the sensation if you would eat a large spoon of honey,…
a kind of sweet sensation on the back of my tongue, like after eating something very sweet, like how you would feel after eating honey,…

It’s hard to explain, but its similar to after eating something too sweet, and this happens when I think about those spiritual things the man told me about that are c.

 

[BeingSaved]

my own thoughts about if I were to become involved with the cc, are confusing, because I am wary and think I may be being deceived, because my own pastor church and fam. are anti,…and I thought that way too, before my conversations with the c. man

so with my head, I am wary re c., at the same time there is an interest that may be a spiritual pull I am concerned the spiritual pull may be deception…

 

[Jon_S_1]

jon,

when you were interested in c ways, did you note any particular effect on your person beside the relief in confession?

when I think of the scripture I discussed with the c. man, and what he explained about all the things that occur in the service,…i notice a sense, which again is not really a physical sensation, but it is close to one,…

it could be described like this, because it is very similar,…it is like the sensation if you would eat a large spoon of honey,…
a kind of sweet sensation on the back of my tongue, like after eating something very sweet, like how you would feel after eating honey,…

It’s hard to explain, but its similar to after eating something too sweet, and this happens when I think about those spiritual things the man told me about that are c.

I think I know what you mean. It is like a satisfaction. Like it all makes sense. I think that is a feeling God gives us of peace in Truth. Even a normal meal will feel like a delicious dessert after being starved for many years.

Yes I have noticed immense personal change. I feel like I am truly born again. I have been Freed of habitual sins I had most of my life which is a true miracle. I have a totally new view of life, a Christ centered one, I feel like I am truly a Christian with a living faith that means something.

I would be very cautious of your pastor. Even as a protestant I would not be crazy about someone who holds a position of Catholics like him. Frankly it reeks of bigotry more than truth and shows a lack of knowledge of Christian history.

There are plenty, the vast majority, of Protestants who clearly and correctly hold Catholics as Christians.

You need to spend some time in prayer and discernment. Feel free to contact a local priest to discuss with him and ask away here on the forum. We don’t bite!

I think you will enjoy this quotation from Thomas Merton,

“One came out of the church with a kind of comfortable and satisfied feeling that something had been done that needed to be done…It is a law of man’s nature, written into his very essence, and just as much a part of him as the desire to build houses and cultivate the land and marry and have children and read books and sing songs, that he should want to stand together with other men in order to acknowledge their common dependence on God, their Father and Creator. In fact, this desire is much more fundamental than any purely physical necessity.”

 

[Jon_S_1]

I confessed to a priest,inside the booth, last year, one sin, …this may sound strange but I heard something,…it wasn’t audible,…but it sounded loud, maybe I heard something spiritual,…not with my physical ears,…
get this, it sounded like thunder,…like a loud crack of thunder,…

my church and pastor are anti catholic, he is an x catholic,…
when I mentioned in an email the interest I had toward c., he became upset and asked me in to counsel,…he thinks people in the c.c. are not really ba, and that you’d be hard pressed to even find one ba c., in a whole church?

the catholic person I had talked to is male, and I am female, so I stopped talking to them last year and its been many months now since we conversed, not even over the net,…i thought I may have been attracted to him, and my pastor thought the same,…that it was really him I was interested in, not the cc.,

however, that interest hasn’t gone away,…although the catholic man has,…
my pastor became worried about me,…

this is all quite confusing,…my family is anti catholic and my church is too,…not toward the people but to the institution.

You may also like David Currie’s book “Born fundamentalist born again Catholic”

There are lots of converts here from your background. Both in the church and on the forum. Your not the only one to explore this! Thousands of pastors and seminarians and laypeople convert !

 

[HChristian]

You may also like David Currie’s book “Born fundamentalist born again Catholic”

There are lots of converts here from your background. Both in the church and on the forum. Your not the only one to explore this! Thousands of pastors and seminarians and laypeople convert !

Many people convert on “Protestant” churches also.

 

[rfournier103]

Many people convert on “Protestant” churches also.

I don’t think Jon S. was saying or even implying that there weren’t. There are thousands of lapsed Catholics who leave the Church every year.

Many of those lapsed Catholics belong to Protestant web forums and tell their stories there.

That being said, HChristian, welcome aboard.

 

[guanophore]

It’s not in communion with Rome right?

It’s a so called “independent Catholic Church”

To me “independent” = Protestant

I get that they aren’t a product of the reformation but they are nonetheless protesting church authority.

Here is a nice succint history of the PNCC.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Exactly ! How can you separate the Person from His own mystical body ? Yet isn’t that what we do by defining and insisting on the “right” church first and foremost ? May I repeat again, meeting the Person puts you in the Church, the Body. He “calls us out”. That is what the origin of “church” is, the called out ones, the ecclesia. “My sheep know my voice”. This is that effectual calling. Remember, even your ownCC lumen gentia or something says their is saving grace in other churches that you disagree with, that we meet the Person in them. the CC statement deals withe the fact that there are saved brethren, in the Mystical Body, outside the practicing Catholic Church

“Meeting the Person puts you in the Church,” “He calls us out,” “My sheep hear my voice.” It don’t know what these phrases mean. They seem to indicate an extra-biblical, mystical direct communication from God. A communication outside the bible, extraneous to it. Well, if that’s what one feels, there is nothing more to be said. God has spoken. He has called.

All this has nothing to do with the Bible! It is certainly not bible-only. If God speaks directly to those He wants to save, there is no need for scripture, and certainly no need for a teaching Church. No need for apostles sent out, like Jesus did.

This viewpoint re-defines the concept of church. Without a visible teaching church that has sent-out apostles, the church then is made up simply of those that God has spoken to personally. Who knows who they are? Only they do.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I was listening to Scott Hahn today while preparing for work, he was speaking about covenant and why there must be one visible Church and not an invisible confederation of common-faith-ism that is termed “church”… It let to my mind concluding that the “invisible” faith=church idea is just as silly as invisible act = baptism idea. It’s as if one does not need water or to be immersed/poured upon to be actually baptized, just mime the act because “real baptism is spiritual”.

 

[SteveVH]

I was listening to Scott Hahn today while preparing for work, he was speaking about covenant and why there must be one visible Church and not an invisible confederation of common-faith-ism that is termed “church”… It let to my mind concluding that the “invisible” faith=church idea is just as silly as invisible act = baptism idea. It’s as if one does not need water or to be immersed/poured upon to be actually baptized, just mime the act because “real baptism is spiritual”.

Add to this the fact that many Protestants get down to exactly how this is to be done. If not full immersion then your Baptism was invalid. You make a great point!

 

[steido01]

I was listening to Scott Hahn today while preparing for work, he was speaking about covenant and why there must be one visible Church and not an invisible confederation of common-faith-ism that is termed “church”… It let to my mind concluding that the “invisible” faith=church idea is just as silly as invisible act = baptism idea. It’s as if one does not need water or to be immersed/poured upon to be actually baptized, just mime the act because “real baptism is spiritual”.

So what do you do with groups who do see the church as visible, just not necessarily corporate on earth – like, say, Lutherans? They understand the church to be visible “wherever the Word is preached and the Sacramenta rightly administered.” So the church is just not confined to denominational/corporate lines. To continue your analogy using baptism, they know water must be used, but they’ll use water from any spring - not just the spring in Rome, since it’s the Word working through the water and not any particular source of water that makes the sacrament a sacrament.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

So what do you do with groups who do see the church as visible, just not necessarily corporate on earth – like, say, Lutherans? They understand the church to be visible “wherever the Word is preached and the Sacramenta rightly administered.”

See, I have a big problem with statements like this.
“Rightly” administered — according to whom?

“Wherever the Word is preached” – according to whose interpretation?

So the church is just not confined to denominational/corporate lines.

Do you exclude, say, Baptists and “Evangelicals”?
Or, do you say that their sacraments are “rightly administered”?

 

[JonNC]

=FathersKnowBest;12306105]See, I have a big problem with statements like this.
“Rightly” administered — according to whom?

“Wherever the Word is preached” – according to whose interpretation?

Fine. Take the word “rightly”. Steido’s question is:
**So what do you do with groups who do see the church as visible, just not necessarily corporate on earth – like, say, Lutherans? **

Jon

 

[SyroMalankara]

So what do you do with groups who do see the church as visible, just not necessarily corporate on earth – like, say, Lutherans? They understand the church to be visible “wherever the Word is preached and the Sacramenta rightly administered.” So the church is just not confined to denominational/corporate lines. To continue your analogy using baptism, they know water must be used, but they’ll use water from any spring - not just the spring in Rome, since it’s the Word working through the water and not any particular source of water that makes the sacrament a sacrament.

Not quite, this counter-analogy does not work because Rome never makes the claim that only Roman springs can provide baptism. A better analogy would be of accepting any form of water, from any denomination, with any minister’s action - no matter which denomination. So do Lutherans(any protestants) accept - say, JW, Mormon, SDA, etc baptism as “valid” as their own since water is used and perhaps the “right phrasing”?

 

[Godspells]

Not quite, this counter-analogy does not work because Rome never makes the claim that only Roman springs can provide baptism. A better analogy would be of accepting any form of water, from any denomination, with any minister’s action - no matter which denomination. So do Lutherans(any protestants) accept - say, JW, Mormon, SDA, etc baptism as “valid” as their own since water is used and perhaps the “right phrasing”?

Most Protestants would not because the intent of the receiver of the baptism was fundamentally skewed. JWs are unitarian, Mormons believe in a triad, so the intent of the baptism is off.

That said, I understand Rome accepts the same thing. But Protestants generally view baptism as an outer reflection of an inner change, the latter is necessary for salvation, the former is not.

I was raised Christian, and consider myself so, but I have never been baptized, which is an unfortunate fact, since I frequently argue for the necessity of a literal baptism in water.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Most Protestants would not because the intent of the receiver of the baptism was fundamentally skewed. JWs are unitarian, Mormons believe in a triad, so the intent of the baptism is off.

so what, I can retort, Catholics would say something is “off” in each of the spun off denominations. In addition, couldn’t there be some within those denominations who are “invisibly baptised”, just as is claimed that there are unknown persons “within the invisible church”.

That said, I understand Rome accepts the same thing. But Protestants generally view baptism as an outer reflection of an inner change, the latter is necessary for salvation, the former is not.

Then what is the former necessary for?

I was raised Christian, and consider myself so, but I have never been baptized, which is an unfortunate fact, since I frequently argue for the necessity of a literal baptism in water.

I would argue many more Christians would consider you not Christian (although holding some Christian-affiliation) because of a lack of baptism, including those who claim the “invisible church”.

 

[Godspells]

so what, I can retort, Catholics would say something is “off” in each of the spun off denominations. In addition, couldn’t there be some within those denominations who are “invisibly baptised”, just as is claimed that there are unknown persons “within the invisible church”.

Um… I think there might be some uncertainty here. Most protestants don’t hold to view their denomination as the “true” church. I’ve read some baptists claim this, but Anglicans and their successors (Episcopalians, Methodists, Pentecostals etc.) don’t really touch on the question too much.

Then what is the former necessary for?

The former is not necessary. I personally disagree with this. I believe that physical baptism is an integral part of becoming a Christian. But it not being strictly necessary for salvation is shared by most people. The RCC baptism of desire is similar to the protestant view.

I would argue many more Christians would consider you not Christian (although holding some Christian-affiliation) because of a lack of baptism, including those who claim the “invisible church”.

I’ve never met anyone who has said such. I certainly believe in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, in the physical resurrection of body and soul of Christ, and for the forgiveness of sins. I even believe in the assumption and immaculate conception even though these tend to be exclusively Catholic doctrines.

Most Protestants don’t hold as strict a view of baptism as do Catholics and Orthodox, and even these believe there is hope for one who dies without it.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Um… I think there might be some uncertainty here. Most protestants don’t hold to view their denomination as the “true” church. I’ve read some baptists claim this, but Anglicans and their successors (Episcopalians, Methodists, Pentecostals etc.) don’t really touch on the question too much.

They won’t say “true church”, but must consider their own the closest and truest, or would go elsewhere.

The former is not necessary. I personally disagree with this. I believe that physical baptism is an integral part of becoming a Christian. But it not being strictly necessary for salvation is shared by most people. The RCC baptism of desire is similar to the protestant view.

Baptism of desire implies desire not just mental assent to an ideology with no sacramental act.

I’ve never met anyone who has said such. I certainly believe in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, in the physical resurrection of body and soul of Christ, and for the forgiveness of sins. I even believe in the assumption and immaculate conception even though these tend to be exclusively Catholic doctrines.

so why not believe AND be baptised?

Most Protestants don’t hold as strict a view of baptism as do Catholics and Orthodox, and even these believe there is hope for one who dies without it.

invisible baptism then, as part of the invisible church

 

[FathersKnowBest]

FathersKnowBest;12306105:

See, I have a big problem with statements like this.
“Rightly” administered — according to whom?

“Wherever the Word is preached” – according to whose interpretation?

Fine. Take the word “rightly”. Steido’s question is:
**So what do you do with groups who do see the church as visible, just not necessarily corporate on earth – like, say, Lutherans? **

Jon

Huh?