Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?

[daddyd]

So which denomination is that?

The one that follows what the bible says.

HOW much “alignmen” is needed?

Total.

Who judges who is aligned with the Bible?

God, in His word

The catholic says they are, the Mormon says they are, the liberal episcopalian says they are.

But are they?

You need to seriously think about this. You cannot be the test. You are not the infallible source of truth,

You are right, never said I was. The bible is.

but as long as your interpretation of the bible is your litmus test you make yourself the infallible source of truth.

Again how much interpreting do you need for John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Not to mention you have no basis for saying the book of John is truth without an outside source declaring it so.

But I do have a basis. It is called faith.

Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[JonNC]

If not SS, then what do you think caused, and is continuing to cause these massive divisions and divergent beliefs?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hi Jon,
I think guan touched on it, when quoting: 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner: but then face to face. Now I know in part: but then I shall know even as I am known. (1 Co 13:12).
It is human sin that causes division. look, there are a number of communions that teach Scripture and Sacred Tradition as the model, and yet they are separated from each other: CC, EO, OO, PNCC, Union of Utrecht. One can’t blame that on sola scriptura.
So, it must be the fault of Tradition. Right? No. There is something else involved.
It is human sin.

Which Church, Jon. I know you are speaking of the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome. But the Patriarchate at Rome is not the only one. Whose teaching authority is the true authority?

Jon

I agree that sin is involved and ultimately to blame, but we should also look beyond that not just put up our hands and say it’s sin and so just live with it. Right?

So in trying to repair the affects of sin, it seems that it is sola Scriptura for the majority of cases. But as I said earlier it is actually a removal of authority from it’s proper place in ALL cases. Sometimes the authority is given to the Bible instead of the church and Bible. This is perhaps the majority. In other cases it is by a removal of some other teaching authority (or the Magesterium.

The authority lies in not just the Bishop of Rome, but on the entire Magesterium. This includes every apostolic validly ordained bishop, Catholic or not.

We need the entire Magesterium “church” together to properly carry the truth.

Thoughts?

 

[Jon_S_1]

The one that follows what the bible says.

Total.

God, in His word

But are they?

You are right, never said I was. The bible is.

Again how much interpreting do you need for John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

But I do have a basis. It is called faith.

Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You are completely blinded to the fact that it is you and you alone that us deciding what is truth and what the Bible means.

I will pray for the scales to be removed from your eyes so that you can see the light.

 

[daddyd]

Which church holds up and supports the truth?

Mormons? JHW? SDA? Methodist? Pentecostals? Evangelicals? Lutherans?

This is the root of the question.

You are upholding and supporting the truth if you are not only upholding and supporting what the bible says but making it part of our lives.

 

[Jon_S_1]

pablope;12348805:

So it is the “extent” that matters? Three or four divisions and schisms is then ok? Or 10 or 12?
but you make a good point. the vast majority of the divisions is in the western Church. The east, while they have some divisions, their’s is not nearly to the extent ours in the west is. As I pondered with Topper, maybe the EO has it right after all, if the extent of the division is the measure of truth and authority.

Jon

I hope you can see that the reason the eastern church has far fewer divisions is because there is no sola Scriptura among them.

If the eastern church had Sola Scriptura along with a rejection of the sacraments as the western church has, then every eastern laymen could just found his own church around some unique idea he pulls out if the bible alone.

 

[Jon_S_1]

You are upholding and supporting the truth if you are not only upholding and supporting what the bible says but making it part of our lives.

That is fine, so you see anyone that claims to be upholding and supporting what the Bible says to be supporting the truth.

The Westboro baptist church claims this and justifies everything they do with the Bible. So they must be supporting truth right?

If not, what makes the difference between them and you.

 

[daddyd]

You of course dodge all of the hard questions.

Which hard ones have I dodged?

Which denomination do you belong to, and how is it you can plainly read the Bible one way and a host of others read it a different way.

How am I reading it differently?

As for John 5, I hope you realize that refers to the Old Testament.

So?

 

[daddyd]

You are completely blinded to the fact that it is you and you alone that us deciding what is truth and what the Bible means.

I will pray for the scales to be removed from your eyes so that you can see the light.

Thank You

 

[Jon_S_1]

Which hard ones have I dodged?

How am I reading it differently?

So?

There are tons of ways you are reading it wrong.

For example John 6 along with 1 Corinthians 11 teach us about the Resl Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. A teaching that every apostolic church holds. A teaching which was the only teaching until about 1600.

I’m not sure your denomination, but likely you reject this teaching.

What gives you the authority to say we are wrong in this historical teaching that seems so plain in the text?

 

[daddyd]

That is fine, so you see anyone that claims to be upholding and supporting what the Bible says to be supporting the truth.

The Westboro baptist church claims this and justifies everything they do with the Bible. So they must be supporting truth right?

If not, what makes the difference between them and you.

No, that’s not what I said. You can’t just claim it. You have to do it.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’ve read most of the thread and something just occurred to me:

Is any one at all, determining by prayer and suplication?



Something else:

Is it about being right or about following the model from the Sermon on the Mount?

Matthew 5

*1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.

2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God.

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.*

 

[Jon_S_1]

No, that’s not what I said. You can’t just claim it. You have to do it.

The question you dodge is who tells us who is doing it? Who tells us how to do it? If I was looking for guidance as a new believer and knocked on westboro’s door they would tell me one way. If I knocked on the door of your church you’d tell me a different way. If I went to my Catholic Church, a third way. On and on.

So which way is it? Surely God would not want me just guessing and subject to any idea in the wind?

Jesus and the apostles had a single unified clear message. Who carries their message today?

 

[daddyd]

There are tons of ways you are reading it wrong.

For example John 6 along with 1 Corinthians 11 teach us about the Resl Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. A teaching that every apostolic church holds. A teaching which was the only teaching until about 1600.

I’m not sure your denomination, but likely you reject this teaching.

What gives you the authority to say we are wrong in this historical teaching that seems so plain in the text?

I never mentioned 1Cor.11 or John 6 so how could I be dodging a question about them?

 

[Per_Crucem]

I’ve read most of the thread and something just occurred to me:

Is any one at all, determining by prayer and suplication?



Something else:

Is it about being right or about following the model from the Sermon on the Mount?

Matthew 5

*1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.

2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God.

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.*

But that’s just your fallible opinion.

But it happens to be right On a tangent, why don’t we sing the beatitudes like they do in the Eastern liturgy

 

[Jon_S_1]

I never mentioned 1Cor.11 or John 6 so how could I be dodging a question about them?

You asked for an example on a way of reading scripture wrong. Here is one example.

 

[daddyd]

I’ve read most of the thread and something just occurred to me:

Is any one at all, determining by prayer and suplication?



Something else:

Is it about being right or about following the model from the Sermon on the Mount?

Matthew 5

*1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.

2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God.

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.*

Amen!

 

[daddyd]

But that’s just your fallible opinion.

But it happens to be right (

Is this you fallible opinion?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

It is human sin that causes division. look, there are a number of communions that teach Scripture and Sacred Tradition as the model, and yet they are separated from each other: CC, EO, OO, PNCC, Union of Utrecht. One can’t blame that on sola scriptura.

Nobody is claiming that it is sola scriptura alone (sola sola scriptura?) that is the cause.

It just so happens to be the greatest manifestation of the problem today.

So, it must be the fault of Tradition. Right? No. There is something else involved.
It is human sin.

Yes, and specifically the sin of pride. The rejection of the Authority that Christ bestowed on the Church in general, and the office of St. Peter in particular.

St. Jude identifies this in his epistle:
Jude 1:11 Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error, and perish in Korah’s rebellion.

Korah’s rebellion, by which a person tried to arrogate to themselves an authority not granted by God nor delegated by someone who HAD divine authority. See Numbers 16:1-33.

Which Church, Jon. I know you are speaking of the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome. But the Patriarchate at Rome is not the only one. Whose teaching authority is the true authority?

The one that has the authority of St. Peter’s office.
As Jesus intended.

 

[pablope]

pablope;12348805:

So it is the “extent” that matters? Three or four divisions and schisms is then ok? Or 10 or 12?
but you make a good point. the vast majority of the divisions is in the western Church. The east, while they have some divisions, their’s is not nearly to the extent ours in the west is. As I pondered with Topper, maybe the EO has it right after all, if the extent of the division is the measure of truth and authority.

Jon

But no one in the East has ever practiced SS, or did they dismember any of the sacraments.

What I meant by extent of divisions is those who separated from the West…and adhered to SS.

As I asked, if not SS…then what do you think the cause of the divisions of those who practice SS?

but you make a good point. the vast majority of the divisions is in the western Church.

Or you could look at it the other way around.

Have you ever wondered, why those wanting to do the black mass attack the Roman Catholic mass, and not the Eastern divine Liturgy, or the Lutheran mass, or any of the protestant style services?

Why is there so much division in the west…could it be because that is the target of a dark force? But why target the western church?