Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II

[PRmerger]

What if you tell your son, "You can’t drive until you’re 18; does mean he can’t drive before 18, can he drive after 18?

I think I’ve demonstrated quite effectively that the use of the word “until” IN SCRIPTURE says nothing about what happened subsequently.

But, as a faithful, obedient husband, I do believe that he did have sex with her.

That’s a clear example of your using your man-made tradition to determine this. As you stated: (“and non-catholics, can’t prove that she did” ) Scripture says *nothing at all *about Joseph having consummated his marriage.

Actually this issue could be declared a tie; seeings as how catholics can’t prove she didn’t have sex, and non-catholics, can’t prove that she did:thumbsup:

And what does Scripture say about what we should do when 2 people disagree about a theological issue? Take it to the Church. So you have no authority to declare something a tie. Again, that’s your man-made tradition!

If we promote public(and yes non-catholic religions do read some) reading of the Bible, then why bother having individual Bibles? tO follow along?

Could you please elaborate on what you mean here?

St. Paul says quite explicitly: Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

Do you think it means they’re supposed to stop reading Scripture after St. Paul arrives?

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger: I haven’t found anything yet, that says Joseph and Mary did not consummate their union, one that was approved and blessed by God! Does this mean that the tie goes to the catholics? And I am smarer than a fifth grader; I understand what you mean by “until”. You’re going to get a cramp, patting yourself on the back! I know what catholics believe and teach, but I cannot summarily dismiss Joseph and Mary’s physical relationship as non-existentAnd I also know that Paul(the 13th apostle) said that it was okay to be single and celibate, or married! And part of marriage(even though this one was part of a glorious happening)is sexual relations! As far as public reading, not condemning it, just asking if you guys read yours everyday, like I do? By the way, I defended catholics the other day; someone said that catholics weren’t Christians! I said, every man woman, and child has the right and opportunity to be a Christian; so don’t condemn a whole religion because YOU don’t believe they are:thumbsup:

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

prmerger: I haven’t found anything yet, that says Joseph and Mary did not consummate their union, one that was approved and blessed by God! Does this mean that the tie goes to the catholics? And I am smarer than a fifth grader; I understand what you mean by “until”. You’re going to get a cramp, patting yourself on the back! I know what catholics believe and teach, but I cannot summarily dismiss Joseph and Mary’s physical relationship as non-existentAnd I also know that Paul(the 13th apostle) said that it was okay to be single and celibate, or married! And part of marriage(even though this one was part of a glorious happening)is sexual relations! As far as public reading, not condemning it, just asking if you guys read yours everyday, like I do? By the way, I defended catholics the other day; someone said that catholics weren’t Christians! I said, every man woman, and child has the right and opportunity to be a Christian; so don’t condemn a whole religion because YOU don’t believe they are:thumbsup:

You are entitled to your opinion, but bear in mind that in so doing you are rejecting opinion of all Christians for the first 1500 years of Christianity(including Martin Luther!) and most Christians today.

Since the bible does not give us the answer, we must go to tradition.

Your tradition is a novelty.

 

[PRmerger]

Does this mean that the tie goes to the catholics?

What does Scripture say about “ties” again? Oh, yes! Take it to the Church. My Church has officially declared a teaching on this. Where can I find your Church’s official teaching on this?

And I am smarer than a fifth grader;

but I cannot summarily dismiss Joseph and Mary’s physical relationship as non-existen

If this is not in Scripture, (which you agree it is not), then you are adding your own man-made tradition to this interpretation.

As far as public reading, not condemning it, just asking if you guys read yours everyday, like I do?

Does praying the Scriptures daily count?

By the way, I defended catholics the other day; someone said that catholics weren’t Christians! I said, every man woman, and child has the right and opportunity to be a Christian; so don’t condemn a whole religion because YOU don’t believe they are:thumbsup:

Why, thank you!

I am humbled by your love for Christ and His Word.

 

[JRKH]

In post#676, MDK answered my post, but forgot to answer the question about dress codes for church service Her it is again(and don’t bore me with"please deal with less important issues on another thread), If one of my many catholic friends invited me to a mass,and I showed up wearing Levi’s, tennis shoes, and a nice button down shirt, would I be turned away, and why?

I don’t know of any cathoic Church in our area that would turn you away for what you describe. In fact I have seen people attending mass at my parish dressed worse. (shorts and baggy tee-shirts.

You seem to be misinformed about the church’s postion on this.

Peace
James

 

[heiscominginthe]

Joseph was previously married. Could have been his children.

LOL. This is the first I heard of this one. Now where is this found in the bible?

 

[PRmerger]

LOL. This is the first I heard of this one. Now where is this found in the bible?

Can you show me where in the Bible it says that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage?

Also, while we’re on the subject…can you show me where it says in the Bible that everything you believe has to be in the Bible? That seems un-Biblical to me!

 

[PRmerger]

I do want to state that I was mistaken in thinking that Scriptures described St. Joseph as a widower. They do not. :nope:

I was following the tradition (with a small “t”) that describes him as a widower.

Mea culpa!

However, it still does not change the fact that Jesus’ brothers were not from Mary’s womb.

 

[ladybon]

Some protestant interpretations don’t seem to be interpretations at all, but down-right arbitrary selectivity of what they choose to believe. Forget about all the really difficult differences in interpretations of the Bible between RCs and Protestants or evangelicals. I’m talking about the basics of all christian beliefs (at least all the ones that I’m aware of), such as, love thy neighbor as thyself, judge not lest ye be judged, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc., etc., etc. Faith, hope and charity also come to mind. I know of a person who considers himself to be an extremely devout christian, a member of a large evangelical/non-denominational church, who reads the Bible on a regular basis, is very involved in his church, and who portrays himself as a very morally correct christian. However, he has snubbed his wife’s entire family for years, has convinced his wife and children that her family is “bad” (not even close!), and that his children’s grandmother wasn’t allowed to continue the closes relationship she had with her 3 grandchildren. His wife’s family has missed out on high school and college graduations, sporting events the children were involved in, and recently the marriage of one of his children. Can someone explain to me how this is all OK coming from a so-called devout christian? Do evangelicals believe in the 10 Commandments? He’s broken several of them. He obviously ignores the passages in his Bible that aren’t “convenient” to his plan.

 

[christian1]

To pr merger:Can you show me where in the Bible it says that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage?

---

I would have to point to:

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And **knew her **not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

I have a real difficult time with the way the CC disregards the plain truth over Mary revealed in scripture.

Along with the other areas that show He had brothers and sisters.

Your reasoning is:

The word could have been cousin or brother therefore it was cousin.

Should dogma and doctrine be formed on such faulty philosophical premises?

But still, please tell me, what does the scripture mean when it says that he did not know her till a certain time?

Does it not mean that he knew her at a certain time?

Did the angel not command him to take her unto him as his wife? And then it specifies the that the act that usually comes with that did not take place till after the birth of Jesus.

 

[christian1]

PRmerger you said: I think I’ve demonstrated quite effectively that the use of the word “until” IN SCRIPTURE says nothing about what happened subsequently.

---

I’m afraid not. The scripture you used is from the Hebrew text and does not have the same meaning.

However, the following does and was used by Jesus. Tell me what the word until means here and then we can discuss whether or not you have selected the wrong meaning of until for your arguement.

Luk 22:18 For1063 I say3004 unto you,5213 I will(3754) not3364 drink4095 of575 the3588 fruit1081 of the3588 vine,288 until2193, 3755 the3588 kingdom932 of God2316 shall come.2064

Mat 1:25 And2532 knew1097 her846 not3756 till2193 she had brought forth5088 her848 firstborn4416 son:5207 and2532 he called2564 his846 name3686 JESUS.2424

Mat 5:18 For1063 verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 Till2193 heaven3772 and2532 earth1093 pass,3928 one1520 jot2503 or2228 one3391 tittle2762 shall in no wise3364 pass3928 from575 the3588 law,3551 till2193 all3956 be fulfilled.1096
**
The definition:**
G2193
ἕως
heōs
heh’-oce
Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).

The definition of your quote:

2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal4324 the daughter1323 of Saul7586 had1961 no3808 child3206 unto5704 the day3117 of her death.4194

H5704
עד
‛ad
ad
Properly the same as H5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjugation; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with): - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.

 

[christian1]

To SteveGC:

Hello there. You said: There is no way our Bible would be here today if it weren’t for the Spirit-led Church, and I find it deeply disrespectful for “Christians” of today to embrace and exalt the Book, and simultaneously thumb their noses at The Church who delivered it.

---

In all fairness, could not the exact same thing be said of those who were appointed by God to distribute the old testament and at the same time condemned for their practices they adopted contrary to those very scriptures they were under God’s authority to distribute?

*Just like the Baptist said: *

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

It sounds alot like the CC of today. The “if it weren’t for us” arguement holds no water in light that God can use and does use whomever He wishes but that does not guarantee their eternal submission and obedience to His will.

When they become disobedient and unworthy, His Will finds another way. And indeed it has and always will. This is what was meant by the scripture:

The gates of hell will not prevail.

Though the chosen vessel should fall into sin, as God’s chosen vessels have in the past, God’s Holy Will will not be contained by such.

 

[Peter_J]

What if you tell your son, "You can’t drive until you’re 18; does mean he can’t drive before 18, can he drive after 18?

Technically, no it does not mean that he can drive after 18 (although it does strongly suggest that he can drive after 18).

 

[Peter_J]

Your reasoning is:

The word could have been cousin or brother therefore it was cousin.

christian1, I’m afraid you have been misinformed. We do not use that reasoning – we do not point to those verses and say “See this proves that they were his cousins.”

 

[PRmerger]

To pr merger:Can you show me where in the Bible it says that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage?

---

I would have to point to:

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And **knew her **not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

That says *nothing at all *about what happened subsequent to the birth of Jesus. It means simply he knew her not prior to Jesus’ birth.

The word could have been cousin or brother therefore it was cousin.

I never said “therefore it was cousin.” I offered some possibilities–maybe they were St. Joseph’s sons from a previous marriage. Maybe they were his cousins. Maybe they were close relatives.

It simply makes sense theologically that Mary remained a virgin. She is the New Ark of the Covenant. Can you imagine the Ark of the Covenant, which carried the Sacred Ten Words, also carrying around ordinary pebbles found in the desert?

To claim that Mary held other children in her womb is to denigrate the divinity of Christ.

Should dogma and doctrine be formed on such faulty philosophical premises?

Your claiming they are faulty does not make it so.

And, to deny such dogma and doctrine about the Mother of God is to deny the very divinity of Christ.

But still, please tell me, what does the scripture mean when it says that he did not know her till a certain time?

Simply that. He did not “know” her prior to Christ’s birth.

Does it not mean that he knew her at a certain time?

No…

Christian1, when the angel Gabriel announced to Mary, who was betrothed (that is, married) to Joseph, “You shall conceive a child” why was Mary confused? If she had planned to have normal marital relations she would have simply accepted the prediction.

Imagine an angel appearing to a newlywed couple today and telling the woman, “You’re going to conceive”…her response would not be, “How can this be?” It would be: Yes, that’s what often happens when you have marital relations.

 

[christian1]

Peter Jyou said:
christian1, I’m afraid you have been misinformed. We do not use that reasoning – we do not point to those verses and say “See this proves that they were his cousins.”

---

This is certainly one of the arguements used to support the ever virginity of Mary.

Or one can hold to the belief that the brothers and sisters belonged to Joseph.

So long as your belief ends with Mary a virgin it doesn’t matter how you reach your conclusion.

And to say that she is called the Ark of the Covenant? Where does it say that?

I’ve also heard King Solomon’s mother the queen used as a reference to Mary and how Jesus feels about her.

What is that about?

 

[christian1]

PRmerger

I gave you definitions and other scriptures that do indeed support the view I hold. I also explained how the scripture you used does not refute the view I hold.

Could you comment on that?

The beautiful truth about Mary is that she was the physical mother of the human Jesus and God was His Father.

He did not need to come through a sinless vessel to be Holy. For the Father was Holy. It does not take away from His divinity AT ALL that she had other kids nor that she was born with orignal sin since the sins were passed through the father. Since God was the Father, Jesus was born without sin. Mary did not need to be sin free for Him to accomplish this.

Do you suppose that Jesus wasn’t aware of her important role as queen of heaven when he said:
“Who are my mother and my brothers and my sisters? Those who do the will of my Father are my mother my brother and my sisters.”

I think scripture is very plain about Mary’s role. It was to carry the Messiah. She did a wonderful job but her job ended there apart from every other Christian’s job as a follower of Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m afraid not. The scripture you used is from the Hebrew text and does not have the same meaning.

However, the following does and was used by Jesus.

Can you tell me where in Scripture it says we should ignore the Hebrew text and compare it to only what Jesus said? Chapter and verse, please.

**
The definition:**
G2193
ἕως
heōs
heh’-oce
Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).

The definition of your quote:

2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal4324 the daughter1323 of Saul7586 had1961 no3808 child3206 unto5704 the day3117 of her death.4194

H5704
עד
‛ad
ad
Properly the same as H5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjugation; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with): - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.

Your definitions seem to confirm exactly what I said. I’m not sure why you presented them… So Michal had no children until the day of her death…means only that she had no children before she died. It does not imply that she had children after her death!

 

[christian1]

PRmerger

you said: Christian1, when the angel Gabriel announced to Mary, who was betrothed (that is, married) to Joseph, “You shall conceive a child” why was Mary confused? If she had planned to have normal marital relations she would have simply accepted the prediction.

Imagine an angel appearing to a newlywed couple today and telling the woman, “You’re going to conceive”…her response would not be, “How can this be?” It would be: Yes, that’s what often happens when you have marital relations.

---

This is what the angel said to Mary and it’s not as you portray:

Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

First of all she was troubled over the salutation. highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed are you among women"

I would be troubled with this too. I would be wondering why he should say such things about a common person as she was.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Seeing I know not a man does not mean she thought she would not be knowing a man. Obviously she was planning to know a man but as of right then, she had not yet.

And why would she not plan on knowing a man? She was betrothed to one! She’s wanting the details of this event and so would I. How is this supposed to come about seeing as I know not a man? Not I do not plan to ever know a man. I do not currently know a man.

And as I have said before, God did not need Mary to be ever virgin or born sinless to be divine or assumed into heaven. This burden has been put upon her by your church.

 

[PRmerger]

This is certainly one of the arguements used to support the ever virginity of Mary.

Or one can hold to the belief that the brothers and sisters belonged to Joseph.

So long as your belief ends with Mary a virgin it doesn’t matter how you reach your conclusion.

And to say that she is called the Ark of the Covenant? Where does it say that?

I’ve also heard King Solomon’s mother the queen used as a reference to Mary and how Jesus feels about her.

What is that about?

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