E
elvisman
Guest
The Catholic Church has always taught that we are to put our trust in Christ alone for our salvation. Salvation is through him alone.
Why would you think she didn’t?
Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?
- Status
Why would you think she didn’t?
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
thank you for asking:
Wear the Brown Scapular (or scapular medal) after enrollment*
“…whosoever dies wearing this (the brown scapular) shall not suffer eternal fire” (Virgin Mary’s promise to St. Simon)
God bless
J
josie_L
Guest
Honestly, you’re on the largest Catholic forum, did you expect everyone to concur with you?Josie, I really don’t care what you believe.
E
elvisman
Guest
First of all the Scapular is a devotional - not a requirement.
Secondly, the Church doesn’t teach that you go to Heaven just because you dies wearing the Scapular.
Those who wear it and practice the devotion are presumed to be faithful Catholics in good standing. It’s not a blanket guarantee.
Anythiong else?**
C
christian1
Guest
you said: The intercessory prayers of those in heaven for us are spoken of in Revelation 8:4 & 5:8. We are made perfect after we die in Christ.
I read it and it says the prayers of saints. It never says what sort of prayers or what kind of prayers. Why did you ascribe them as intercessory prayers for us and why would you think they were not prayers that they prayed while alive on earth?
**you said: **The Church has never taught that you are sinning if you don’t ask for intercessory prayer. It is foolish, however, to throw away that opportunity because, as it says in James 5:16:
“Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is verypowerful.”
are you saying that there are righteous alive on earth and their prayers are very powerful? Are you also saying that any believer can confess sin and pray to any other believer and be healed?
you said: As I pointed out - the Church cannot defile itself because Christ identifies his ver self with it. Christ cannot defile Christ.
Then what do you make of this:
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast labored, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
**and of all the other letters to the other churches? **Quote:
you said: Agreed - but the Church does not displease him, although individuals may.
Isn’t it plain in scripture what ‘the church’ is? Is it not the people that belong to Christ?
Christ isn’t the Church, the people are, and He is the head of it. They belong to Him, they are His church. The people are the church, they make up the body of Christ and He is the head. Do I need to recite scriptures for this? Although I think I have before but it’s been a while ago now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by christian1
you said: Then, in Acts, he seals the deal by identifying his very self with his Church (Acts 9:4-5). This is why the Church CANNOT “defile itself”, as you assert. This is alsowhy the Church CANNOT “err”, as you state.
The church can defile itself and does. That is why judgement will begin at the house of God, the church, His body as is stated by Paul. We are not exempt from temptation, from sin, from falling away. Why I ask you, would the apostles and Jesus go through such length to warn us of such evils, if in fact the church, the body of Christ, those saved by calling upon His name, were not able to fall? Do you see that we must consider these points of scripture when saying ‘the church cannot defile itself’ or ‘be in error’?
The Church CANNOT defile itself. Like I sais above - the Body is Christ and therefore cannot defile itself. I also said that individuals can defile, the Church cannot defile itself. For this reason, itt cannot be in error either, though individuals may be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by christian1
I would say, I never ceased being a true catholic, but the current catholic church has forsaken the Holy Ways in their traditions and dogma.
See my answers above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by christian1
you said: PS - Please show me how the Church teaches idolatry, as you have stated.
The scapular. If you wear it when you die, you have its power, whichever that particular scapular holds. It’s like thinking the Bible itself holds power just by possessing it. As though if I were to have it in my arms when I died, I would be granted some exemption by merely possessing it. Obedience to the Bible is where the power lies, nowhere else. God is looking for a people that will love and worship Him in spirit and truth not in scapulars. Don’t you find this practice the least bit disturbing as a follower of Christ? If those that are in authority do abuse their position in any way contrary to the Word of God, who will you obey? God or man? When Paul was put in this position with the popes of Jesus day, he said clearly, “I obey God not man”.
What you have just described is not what the Church teaches. It is another anti-Catholic myth.
Obedience to the Bible is NOT where power lies. It lies in Jesus through the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5, 16:26).
Also - there were no “Popes of Jesus day”. The Pharisees were not popes.
I read it and it says the prayers of saints. It never says what sort of prayers or what kind of prayers. Why did you ascribe them as intercessory prayers for us and why would you think they were not prayers that they prayed while alive on earth?
**you said: **The Church has never taught that you are sinning if you don’t ask for intercessory prayer. It is foolish, however, to throw away that opportunity because, as it says in James 5:16:
“Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is verypowerful.”
are you saying that there are righteous alive on earth and their prayers are very powerful? Are you also saying that any believer can confess sin and pray to any other believer and be healed?
you said: As I pointed out - the Church cannot defile itself because Christ identifies his ver self with it. Christ cannot defile Christ.
Then what do you make of this:
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast labored, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
**and of all the other letters to the other churches? **Quote:
you said: Agreed - but the Church does not displease him, although individuals may.
Isn’t it plain in scripture what ‘the church’ is? Is it not the people that belong to Christ?
Christ isn’t the Church, the people are, and He is the head of it. They belong to Him, they are His church. The people are the church, they make up the body of Christ and He is the head. Do I need to recite scriptures for this? Although I think I have before but it’s been a while ago now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by christian1
you said: Then, in Acts, he seals the deal by identifying his very self with his Church (Acts 9:4-5). This is why the Church CANNOT “defile itself”, as you assert. This is alsowhy the Church CANNOT “err”, as you state.
The church can defile itself and does. That is why judgement will begin at the house of God, the church, His body as is stated by Paul. We are not exempt from temptation, from sin, from falling away. Why I ask you, would the apostles and Jesus go through such length to warn us of such evils, if in fact the church, the body of Christ, those saved by calling upon His name, were not able to fall? Do you see that we must consider these points of scripture when saying ‘the church cannot defile itself’ or ‘be in error’?
The Church CANNOT defile itself. Like I sais above - the Body is Christ and therefore cannot defile itself. I also said that individuals can defile, the Church cannot defile itself. For this reason, itt cannot be in error either, though individuals may be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by christian1
I would say, I never ceased being a true catholic, but the current catholic church has forsaken the Holy Ways in their traditions and dogma.
See my answers above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by christian1
you said: PS - Please show me how the Church teaches idolatry, as you have stated.
The scapular. If you wear it when you die, you have its power, whichever that particular scapular holds. It’s like thinking the Bible itself holds power just by possessing it. As though if I were to have it in my arms when I died, I would be granted some exemption by merely possessing it. Obedience to the Bible is where the power lies, nowhere else. God is looking for a people that will love and worship Him in spirit and truth not in scapulars. Don’t you find this practice the least bit disturbing as a follower of Christ? If those that are in authority do abuse their position in any way contrary to the Word of God, who will you obey? God or man? When Paul was put in this position with the popes of Jesus day, he said clearly, “I obey God not man”.
What you have just described is not what the Church teaches. It is another anti-Catholic myth.
Obedience to the Bible is NOT where power lies. It lies in Jesus through the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5, 16:26).
Also - there were no “Popes of Jesus day”. The Pharisees were not popes.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
i don’t know much about this stuff but i stumbled on a marianne site, you want more but of course you will just say it is not the church teachings:bowdown:
E
elvisman
Guest
Listen - I’m not trying to fight with you - really.
It’s just that I have 9 siblings who left the truth of the Catholic Church because they got indoctrinated by anti-Catholic stuff like this and didn’t bother to investigate where it came from and what the truth was.
We, as Catholics not only believe that salvation is from Jesus alone - that’s where the Protestant Reformers got it from.
Devotions are just what they are - devotions.
**You’re not required to believe in them - and, yes - some people take things too far. But - if they bothered to study their faith, they wouldn’t do some of the things they do.
E
elvisman
Guest
**They are falling down before the Lamb (Jesus) with the prayers of the saints. you don’t call that intercessory?? Why are they doing this? If the “saints” prayed directly to Jesus - do you think they would be bringing him bowls filled with the prayers of the saints?
When did I say that? I said that those who are in HEAVEN have been made righteous.
You’re kidding, right? What does he say to the church of Philadelphia?? He praises them for their faithfulness. ALL of these Churches in Revelation are Parishes or diocese of the Catholic Church. All but one of them are being scolded. Remember that these were not ALL of the parishes at the time - these were but 7 of them. It doesn’t mean that the entire Church was corrupt. It means that there were some Parishes that weren’t being faithful - like today.
Read Acts 9:4-5. What does Jesus say to Saul, who was persecuting the CHURCH:
***He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” ***
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
**Jesus didn’t say “Why are you persecuting the Church” - he said “ME”.
I
ICA04
Guest
I would be ashamed, but yet you wear it like a badge of honor. Who is the real protester here? Like I said before, you leave nothing to the imagination.**Thanks for proving **my point!
S
SteveGC
Guest
The Church is the Body of Christ.
The Body has a Head.
The Body also has Members
Christ is the Head
We are the Members
Both the Head and Members are necessary for the Body of Christ (The Church).
One misnomer is that sometimes we refer to ourselves (Christians) as “the Body”. We say this only when we are inferring that we are ONE with Christ, and with Christ, we are the one Body. But to be specific, The Church teaches that we (the Christians) are the members of the one Body, of which Christ is the Head. Both are needed, both are inseparable from The Church - although individual Christians can reject the "member"ship and leave the Body.
From the Catechism (click the link and read Section II):
II. THE CHURCH - BODY OF CHRIST
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
so you as a catholic believe that the church teaches that salvation comes by Christ alone?
out of your catechism:
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation(there are 7 sacraments and play a part in salvation).
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation(is this true?).
**John 6:28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
**
this dialogue takes place after Christ tells them about food that leads to eternal life and before Christ talks of the bread of life. the people want to know ‘the works of God’ and the answer is simple: ‘believe in him whom he has sent.’
a couple of points to look at it is a before and after picture here:
before: this took place Jesus had already been baptized so the people are asking the question of what must be done? why wouldn’t he answer, believe in the one he sent and be baptized?
after: this took place Jesus talks about being the bread of life again the people’s question of food that leads to eternal life, why wouldn’t Jesus answer, believe in the one he sent and eat of his flesh and drink of his blood?
catholic teaches a lot on keeping the commandments so please my friends look at this from the word of God: 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
that’s all for now folks
God bless
out of your catechism:
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation(there are 7 sacraments and play a part in salvation).
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation(is this true?).
**John 6:28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
**
this dialogue takes place after Christ tells them about food that leads to eternal life and before Christ talks of the bread of life. the people want to know ‘the works of God’ and the answer is simple: ‘believe in him whom he has sent.’
a couple of points to look at it is a before and after picture here:
before: this took place Jesus had already been baptized so the people are asking the question of what must be done? why wouldn’t he answer, believe in the one he sent and be baptized?
after: this took place Jesus talks about being the bread of life again the people’s question of food that leads to eternal life, why wouldn’t Jesus answer, believe in the one he sent and eat of his flesh and drink of his blood?
catholic teaches a lot on keeping the commandments so please my friends look at this from the word of God: 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
that’s all for now folks
God bless
C
christian1
Guest
You’ve gotta love this forum. Everything is so easy to do. Thanks to whoever set it up
Elvisman, I just want to thank you for taking the time to go through this with me. I can’t tell you how I sometimes long to understand where the problems actually lie between the religions. Sometimes we find there aren’t really very many, mostly false accusations, but no doubt they arise from the practices of those in the Catholic Church who take things too far no doubt. I assure you, the things I think about the catholic church are not made up but am a personal witness to it. Forgive my ignorance on these matters but they must be dealt with regardless of what corner of your religion they lie. At least I would like to be able to tell others, ‘yea, but they don’t all support that practice’
But that in and of itself brings me to another concern. I know the Catholic Church claims that they are all united as one, but, hardly are they united in mind and heart in many aspects. Take the devotions for example. You say that salvation is only through Jesus but as it stands, one does not even need to approach Jesus at all, only His mother and they can obtain anything they ask of her. There are many devotion rules that say ‘devote yourself’ to praying her rosary. I’m using terms that I have read. If you make me recite where, I will but I don’t think it’s necessary. I have to wonder if many Catholics are not even aware of the degree of division that exists in their own religion? If we separated the catholics accordingly, how many denominations would there be then? I imagine probably only two. Those who adhere to the core rules of the church and those who adhere more to the devotions of the church.
Another thought that I can’t shake is…how can the Church embrace such ardent devotions?
They are falling down before the Lamb (Jesus) with the prayers of the saints. you don’t call that intercessory??
The elders fell down before the feet of the lamb with the prayers of the saints.
you said: When did I say that? I said that those who are in HEAVEN have been made righteous.
aghh! I’ll have to repost your exact quote after this, cause I don’t know how to go back without losing what I’m doing.
For now I’ll just ask…do you believe there were saints before they died? If so, what made them a saint before they were made perfect?
**you said: ** You’re kidding, right?
Trust me when I say I’m not here to waste your time. I was not kidding.
you said: What does he say to the church of Philadelphia?? He praises them for their faithfulness. ALL of these Churches in Revelation are Parishes or diocese of the Catholic Church. All but one of them are being scolded. Remember that these were not ALL of the parishes at the time - these were but 7 of them. It doesn’t mean that the entire Church was corrupt. It means that there were some Parishes that weren’t being faithful - like today.
I’m reciting what Christ is saying about the corruption in His Church. If indeed you believe that you belong to the true church, then these scriptures are for your churches throughout the world.
This is not the unity that I hear proclaimed within the Catholic Church. Who will begin to speak out against the sins of Christs Church? Certainly not the protestants, for we are merely rebellious pagans.
And indeed there are, for Christ would have not said as much. From my discussions with you I have discovered a very relieving thing. That at the core of the catholic religion is Christ. Christ is pleased with this. But who will look and say what He is not pleased with?
The church is in trouble friend. And when you read in revelation what things Christ has against the majority, you’ll begin to open your heart to helping her change her ways.
I for one, would love to join my brothers in the church that belongs to Christ, but I cannot belong to a body whose head is not Christ even though they confess with their mouth He is, but their deeds say otherwise.
I had said: Isn’t it plain in scripture what ‘the church’ is? Is it not the people that belong to Christ?
Christ isn’t the Church, the people are, and He is the head of it. They belong to Him, they are His church. The people are the church, they make up the body of Christ and He is the head. Do I need to recite scriptures for this? Although I think I have before but it’s been a while ago now.
then you said: Read Acts 9:4-5. What does Jesus say to Saul, who was persecuting the CHURCH:
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Jesus didn’t say “Why are you persecuting the Church” - he said “ME”.
I believe your friend said it well. The body and the head are one. The members of the church are the body, and Christ is the head. They cannot exist without the other. But what did Christ say about that part of the church that isn’t in obedience to His word fully? He will spit them out of his mouth. Out of the body. Out of His church. My point is, the scriptures make it plain that the church is in trouble and needs to repent. shouldn’t we be trying to p(name removed by moderator)oint this sin and work towards helping them to repent before it’s too late?
Elvisman, I just want to thank you for taking the time to go through this with me. I can’t tell you how I sometimes long to understand where the problems actually lie between the religions. Sometimes we find there aren’t really very many, mostly false accusations, but no doubt they arise from the practices of those in the Catholic Church who take things too far no doubt. I assure you, the things I think about the catholic church are not made up but am a personal witness to it. Forgive my ignorance on these matters but they must be dealt with regardless of what corner of your religion they lie. At least I would like to be able to tell others, ‘yea, but they don’t all support that practice’
But that in and of itself brings me to another concern. I know the Catholic Church claims that they are all united as one, but, hardly are they united in mind and heart in many aspects. Take the devotions for example. You say that salvation is only through Jesus but as it stands, one does not even need to approach Jesus at all, only His mother and they can obtain anything they ask of her. There are many devotion rules that say ‘devote yourself’ to praying her rosary. I’m using terms that I have read. If you make me recite where, I will but I don’t think it’s necessary. I have to wonder if many Catholics are not even aware of the degree of division that exists in their own religion? If we separated the catholics accordingly, how many denominations would there be then? I imagine probably only two. Those who adhere to the core rules of the church and those who adhere more to the devotions of the church.
Another thought that I can’t shake is…how can the Church embrace such ardent devotions?
They are falling down before the Lamb (Jesus) with the prayers of the saints. you don’t call that intercessory??
The elders fell down before the feet of the lamb with the prayers of the saints.
you said: When did I say that? I said that those who are in HEAVEN have been made righteous.
aghh! I’ll have to repost your exact quote after this, cause I don’t know how to go back without losing what I’m doing.
For now I’ll just ask…do you believe there were saints before they died? If so, what made them a saint before they were made perfect?
**you said: ** You’re kidding, right?
Trust me when I say I’m not here to waste your time. I was not kidding.
you said: What does he say to the church of Philadelphia?? He praises them for their faithfulness. ALL of these Churches in Revelation are Parishes or diocese of the Catholic Church. All but one of them are being scolded. Remember that these were not ALL of the parishes at the time - these were but 7 of them. It doesn’t mean that the entire Church was corrupt. It means that there were some Parishes that weren’t being faithful - like today.
I’m reciting what Christ is saying about the corruption in His Church. If indeed you believe that you belong to the true church, then these scriptures are for your churches throughout the world.
This is not the unity that I hear proclaimed within the Catholic Church. Who will begin to speak out against the sins of Christs Church? Certainly not the protestants, for we are merely rebellious pagans.
And indeed there are, for Christ would have not said as much. From my discussions with you I have discovered a very relieving thing. That at the core of the catholic religion is Christ. Christ is pleased with this. But who will look and say what He is not pleased with?
The church is in trouble friend. And when you read in revelation what things Christ has against the majority, you’ll begin to open your heart to helping her change her ways.
I for one, would love to join my brothers in the church that belongs to Christ, but I cannot belong to a body whose head is not Christ even though they confess with their mouth He is, but their deeds say otherwise.
I had said: Isn’t it plain in scripture what ‘the church’ is? Is it not the people that belong to Christ?
Christ isn’t the Church, the people are, and He is the head of it. They belong to Him, they are His church. The people are the church, they make up the body of Christ and He is the head. Do I need to recite scriptures for this? Although I think I have before but it’s been a while ago now.
then you said: Read Acts 9:4-5. What does Jesus say to Saul, who was persecuting the CHURCH:
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Jesus didn’t say “Why are you persecuting the Church” - he said “ME”.
I believe your friend said it well. The body and the head are one. The members of the church are the body, and Christ is the head. They cannot exist without the other. But what did Christ say about that part of the church that isn’t in obedience to His word fully? He will spit them out of his mouth. Out of the body. Out of His church. My point is, the scriptures make it plain that the church is in trouble and needs to repent. shouldn’t we be trying to p(name removed by moderator)oint this sin and work towards helping them to repent before it’s too late?
E
elvisman
Guest
The Protestant says that faith in Christ alone will save you. The Catholic** agrees****.**
The difference is the definition of faith. Faith is not just “easy-believeism”. It’s not just about what believe to be true because even the demons believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Holy One of God (Mark 1:24, James 2:19).
**True faith demands obedience **(Romans 1:5, 16:26.
When the Catechism speaks of the necessity of the sacraments – it’s because Jesus said so. Faith in Christ alone implies that we must do his will. This is the obedience of faith.
Matt 7:21-23
Matt. 12:50
Matt. 21:28-31
Luke 18:19-22
Jesus told us that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood in order that we might have life within us. Without it, we have no life – period (John 53-56). He commands us to do this (Matt. 26:26-29, Luke 22:17-20, Mark 14:22-25).
Salvation is a process – not a single, on-time event that happens while we’re still on earth.
He who endures to the end will be saved.
2 Timothy 2:12
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Chronicles 15:2
2 Peter 2:20-21
Matthew 10:22
E
elvisman
Guest
Many of your answers and accusations are very vague and difficult to understand - but I will answer some of the main points:You’ve gotta love this forum. Everything is so easy to do. Thanks to whoever set it up
Elvisman, I just want to thank you for taking the time to go through this with me. I can’t tell you how I sometimes long to understand where the problems actually lie between the religions. Sometimes we find there aren’t really very many, mostly false accusations, but no doubt they arise from the practices of those in the Catholic Church who take things too far no doubt. I assure you, the things I think about the catholic church are not made up but am a personal witness to it. Forgive my ignorance on these matters but they must be dealt with regardless of what corner of your religion they lie. At least I would like to be able to tell others, ‘yea, but they don’t all support that practice’
*“I cannot belong to a body whose head is not Christ even though they confess with their mouth He is, but their deeds say otherwise.” *
Which “deeds” do you mean?
“You say that salvation is only through Jesus but as it stands, one does not even need to approach Jesus at all, only His mother and they can obtain anything they ask of her.”
This is completely untrue – in fact, it’s a lie. If you’re going to make claims like this – back it up with proof.
“I have to wonder if many Catholics are not even aware of the degree of division that exists in their own religion? If we separated the catholics accordingly, how many denominations would there be then? I imagine probably only two. Those who adhere to the core rules of the church and those who adhere more to the devotions of the church.”
A Catholic is one who is in FULL communion with the Church – period. Anything less is Protestant.
I’m reciting what Christ is saying about the corruption in His Church. If indeed you believe that you belong to the true church, then these scriptures are for your churches throughout the world.
This is not the unity that I hear proclaimed within the Catholic Church. Who will begin to speak out against the sins of Christs Church? Certainly not the protestants, for we are merely rebellious pagans.
Show me one Church with over 25 members that is in complete union about anything. Unfortunately, Jesus prayer for unity in** John 17**** has been met with pridefulness of man. Since the very beginning of the Church, there have been factions. What do you thing the epistles of St. Paul are all about? Then came the**** big**** one – the ****Protestant Rebellion ****(Reformation). Denominations of a once unified Church have continued for the last 500 years until you have what we have now: Thousands of differing, bickering “truths”. **
The body and the head are one. The members of the church are the body, and Christ is the head. They cannot exist without the other. But what did Christ say about that part of the church that isn’t in obedience to His word fully? He will spit them out of his mouth. Out of the body. Out of His church.
God WILL spit the lukewarm out of his mouth – these are individuals, NOT the Church.
C
christian1
Guest
elvisman said: The Protestant says that faith in Christ alone will save you. The Catholic agrees.
elvisman said: The difference is the definition of faith. Faith is not just “easy-believeism”. It’s not just about what believe to be true because even the demons believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Holy One of God (Mark 1:24, James 2:19).
you see, protestants believe the same thing. For faith without works is dead. See how much we actually agree on? And it’s all scripture.
you said: True faith demands obedience (Romans 1:5, 16:26.
along with:
Jas 2:14 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and if one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them those things which are needful to the body, what good is it?
Jas 2:17 Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith from my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God.”
Jas 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
you said:
When the Catechism speaks of the necessity of the sacraments – it’s because Jesus said so. Faith in Christ alone implies that we must do his will. This is the obedience of faith.
Matt 7:21-23
Matt. 12:50
Matt. 21:28-31
Luke 18:19-22
These scriptures tell of obedience to Christ but does not tell of the seven sacrements being necessary for salvation. I know you believe that the dogmas are ok to have since Peter has been given the keys to Heaven and can do as he pleases as well as those after him as is fitting for the church…but never did Jesus mean for them to add to the plan of salvation by forbidding one to be saved unless they adhere to practices unscriptural.
you said: Jesus told us that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood in order that we might have life within us. Without it, we have no life – period (John 53-56). He commands us to do this (Matt. 26:26-29, Luke 22:17-20, Mark 14:22-25).
Protestants do not have a problem adhering to the observations that Jesus said to adhere to. We also eat His flesh and drink His blood. And how often might be debatable but the fact that we ARE to is not.
you said: Salvation is a process – not a single, on-time event that happens while we’re still on earth.
He who endures to the end will be saved.
2 Timothy 2:12
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Chronicles 15:2
2 Peter 2:20-21
Matthew 10:22
said perfectly. Those who adhere to the written word of God have no problem with this. But those who wrest the scriptures to their destruction will change it to fit their lusts and siins. This is prevelant in EVERY religion or at least in the lives of most who claim to believe. Sin wants to find a way and if it is not strictly oppossed…it will.
elvisman said: The difference is the definition of faith. Faith is not just “easy-believeism”. It’s not just about what believe to be true because even the demons believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Holy One of God (Mark 1:24, James 2:19).
you see, protestants believe the same thing. For faith without works is dead. See how much we actually agree on? And it’s all scripture.
you said: True faith demands obedience (Romans 1:5, 16:26.
along with:
Jas 2:14 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and if one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them those things which are needful to the body, what good is it?
Jas 2:17 Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith from my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God.”
Jas 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
you said:
When the Catechism speaks of the necessity of the sacraments – it’s because Jesus said so. Faith in Christ alone implies that we must do his will. This is the obedience of faith.
Matt 7:21-23
Matt. 12:50
Matt. 21:28-31
Luke 18:19-22
These scriptures tell of obedience to Christ but does not tell of the seven sacrements being necessary for salvation. I know you believe that the dogmas are ok to have since Peter has been given the keys to Heaven and can do as he pleases as well as those after him as is fitting for the church…but never did Jesus mean for them to add to the plan of salvation by forbidding one to be saved unless they adhere to practices unscriptural.
you said: Jesus told us that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood in order that we might have life within us. Without it, we have no life – period (John 53-56). He commands us to do this (Matt. 26:26-29, Luke 22:17-20, Mark 14:22-25).
Protestants do not have a problem adhering to the observations that Jesus said to adhere to. We also eat His flesh and drink His blood. And how often might be debatable but the fact that we ARE to is not.
you said: Salvation is a process – not a single, on-time event that happens while we’re still on earth.
He who endures to the end will be saved.
2 Timothy 2:12
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Chronicles 15:2
2 Peter 2:20-21
Matthew 10:22
said perfectly. Those who adhere to the written word of God have no problem with this. But those who wrest the scriptures to their destruction will change it to fit their lusts and siins. This is prevelant in EVERY religion or at least in the lives of most who claim to believe. Sin wants to find a way and if it is not strictly oppossed…it will.
D
DavidCatechumen
Guest
Baptism is necessary for salvation. The Bible says so. John 3:3. Acceptance of Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior was not enough for Paul–he had to be baptized–and it’s not enough for anyone else. Acts 22:16.
The Eucharist is also necessary for salvation since it preserves you in your faith (which you would lose by mortal sin*). John 53-56, Matt. 26:26-29, Luke 22:17-20, Mark 14:22-25.
The remaining five Sacraments are not strictly necessary except in certain circumstances (e.g. mortal sin requires absolution by a priest OR perfect contrition, vocations require the appropriate sacrament), but are there to strengthen you with the grace of Christ as you walk along your life.
The Sacraments are not Pokémon. You don’t have to catch them all to go to Heaven, but God will call you to them as you need them.
I find this statement to be very disturbing. How do you know your nondenominational church is not also doing this, then?
- If you don’t accept loss of faith and salvation by mortal sin, here’s another way to put it: If you commit a mortal sin, you are demonstrating that you do not love Jesus, meaning you have no faith. The mortal sin can be either the effect or the cause of the loss of faith, if that makes it easier to understand. Either way, commission of a mortal sin means loss of saving faith in Christ.
E
elvisman
Guest
**First of all, as DavidCatechumen has already pointed out, some of the sacraments ARE necessary for salvation - Reconciliation (in some cases), Confirmation, **Matrimony, Holy Orders, Annointing of the Sick are not.
The Church has never claimed that ALL 7 were necessary for salvation.
You are correct about a couple of things. We DO have more in common than not. Unfortunately, the things that divide us are night and day differences.
Secondly, there ARE some who twist the scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16). The thousands of Protestant denominations are a testament to this sad fact.
Lastly - contrary to what you claim, the fact is, most Protestants (not all) DON’T believe that they are eating the Flesh of Jesus and drinking his blood. Most believe it to be merely symbolic.
C
christian1
Guest
I find this statement to be very disturbing. How do you know your nondenominational church is not also doing this, then?
I already said that it was in many cases and on an invdividual basis. Even your religion is guilty of it.
Tell me, what sins was Christ referring to when he addressed the seven churches? If indeed you are the true church of Christ, how is it that you don’t concede that it is in trouble?
I already said that it was in many cases and on an invdividual basis. Even your religion is guilty of it.
Tell me, what sins was Christ referring to when he addressed the seven churches? If indeed you are the true church of Christ, how is it that you don’t concede that it is in trouble?
D
DavidCatechumen
Guest
You seem to be expecting the true Church to be impeccable (not capable of sin). And so you are nondenominational because you are trying to find the impeccable church. But no one is impeccable*, so your search is in vain. 1 John 1:8.
However, the Catholic Church is infallible (not capable of teaching error). Infallibility is not the same thing as impeccability. Some of the Renaissance popes were grievous sinners, but they never caused the Church to teach anything false.
Infallibility is what you are looking for. Not impeccability, which you will never find.
However, the Catholic Church is infallible (not capable of teaching error). Infallibility is not the same thing as impeccability. Some of the Renaissance popes were grievous sinners, but they never caused the Church to teach anything false.
Infallibility is what you are looking for. Not impeccability, which you will never find.
- Although they were in fact capable of sinning, some of the saints did not sin during their lives, and so were assumed into heaven (“raptured” in Protestant parlance) at their deaths. Mary and Elijah for starters, there may have been more.
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
To Joey Marino:
I asked if you were once Catholic, because I could see it a mile away. What made you convert to a church not founded by Christ?
I asked if you were once Catholic, because I could see it a mile away. What made you convert to a church not founded by Christ?
- Status