John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, 13 and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one."
No, but it was a distortion of what the Pagans heard of the Church’s Eucharist. Look at any of the early Christian writings and they clearly show that the ealry Christians believed fully in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, a position which the majority of Protestants’ve rejected.
What you are saying does not make sense. Let me ask you this, what was here first oral scripture or written scripture. You must admit no matter how you do not want to that it is oral. The bible was written long after the death of chirst. Jesus left us the Church. We have just as much scripture not written in the bible. How can you say some oral scripture just because its written in a book for all to see, trumps oral scripture that was not written in the bible. It all came from the Apostles teachings and the word of God. Tell me this do you believe in the Trinity? Why? Show me where that is written in the bible. If you believe in the Trinity then you believe in the Church teachings. Again oral scripture. You cannot pick and choose what oral scripture you want to believe, that would be the same as picking and choosing writtten would it not? The only reason the Catholic Church has both is because Jesus left it that way, he left his TRUE CHURCH with the FULLNESS of the TRUTH. THat is how we can tell what is the right Church to follow. How else would we know. Because without both oral and written scripture and the gift of the Holy Spirit, you would be correct all Church’s would have the fullness of the truth. Both they don’t
So, telling believers to “work out their salvation”, while he’s referring to obedience (stated just prior to it), what he REALLY means is “beloved, God is working out your salvation”? I don’t follow you. Verse 13…let’s look closely, Jerry. “For God is the one who, for His good purpose, works in you both TO DESIRE and TO WORK”. We don’t deny it’s God working in us, Jerry…but what He’s doing is helping us WANT TO work, and helping us DO the work. These verses don’t suggest that God is doing it ALL. God’s grace is in us, so that we may SEE what we are to do, our faith helps us desire to do it, and our free-will obedience is necessary for us to accomplish it. You also have never addressed my earlier point that your belief, while assisted by Grace, is a free-will response to accept and confess God, and a free-will response is also known as a “work” that YOU do.
NONSENSE**.**let’s stop right here. First, read John 6:25-59 (the bread of life discourse) … these are the words of Jesus (hopefully I don’t have to copy & paste half of John 6 for you to acknowledge this point). Secondly, you have no evidence that John wrote this chapter (much less his entire Gospel) in response to the challenge of Gnosticism. In fact, to the contrary, Gnostics generally look to the Gospel of John (and other Johannine works) for affirmation.
The theory that the Gospel of John was actually a work to silence Gnostics is generally asserted by those who deny Johannine authorship (are you in that group)?
Let’s think about this logically. Here’s a verse that presents problems for Gnostics:
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret (John 18:20). Emphasis mine.
The crux of the Gnostic belief system is secret knowledge withheld from the general public (only a select few enlightened people gain access i.e. the word Gnostic itself means knowledge). To have Jesus say “I said nothing in secret” is obviously a blow to the Gnostics … however, for you to say John wrote this in response to the Gnostics is rather absurd isn’t it? Didn’t John merely record the words of Jesus? Are you saying the Holy Spirit inspired John to misrepresent the words of Jesus? Or are you saying that John only wrote select quotes from Jesus in order to respond to the theological challenges of his day? Does any of this make sense to you? First off … this notion itself would affirm that there is secret knowledge not available to the general public – wouldn’t it? Moreover, if John’s Gospel were designed within the confines of a certain context and historical period … wouldn’t this dilute its timeless application?
I suspect you haven’t thought this issue through very well?
Early Christians were accused of many things … were they true or were they mis-perceptions by Roman authorities? Ironically early Christians were commonly accused of atheism, they were charged with burning Rome, etc. Were the early Christians atheists (for which they were persecuted)? Did they burn Rome (for which Nero slaughtered hundreds of Christians … if not more)?
I keep reading this same statement from you … I guess this is how you try and strike a blow at your opponent (with an illogical ad hom statement with absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand). Pretty weak … but that’s OK, take your cheap shots? Maybe they make you feel better about yourself?
Oh, REALLY??
Yeah, good luck with that. I’ve got a Calvinist who’s targeted me for conversion via private message, and his first suggestion was that I read the book of Romans without the aide of any commentary. I told him that I’d do so if he would read it with a Catholic commentary, which he’s thus far refused to do.
what is that verse… “… they twist the Scripture to their own demise”
what is that verse… “… they twist the Scripture to their own demise”
Darn… us Catholics learn from the Scriptures… but we just don’t learn the chapter and verse to “impress” any separated brethern
Actually, my background in evangelical churches prepared me for the chapter-and-verse style of evangelism, so I can tell you with absolute confidence that you’ve referenced 2 Peter 3:16 
Before the NT was written, Christ’s Deposit of Faith was TAUGHT by those given the authority by Christ to go teach. The apostles and their successors DIDN’T interpret Christ’s Deposit of Faith on their own. It was revealed to them. A deeper understanding will develop over time, and has on only a few things thus far. You aren’t supposed to interpret for yourself along the way. You are supposed to follow the teachings and traditions as they have been taught and handed down to us from the apostles. You have been taught that everything has changed and that the Catholic Church either NEVER taught correctly or that we have strayed from Apostolic teaching. That is FALSE. Christ’s Church has His promise to guide and protect, that it will be guided to all Truth and that the gates of Hades will not prevail against her. Men through the reformation have self appointed authority to interpret. NT Scripture IS Catholic teaching/tradition written down. It was never meant to be separated from the authority that wrote it.
Amen. This is the message I was trying to get across (post 721), but it will take much time for a non-Catholic to absorb it because it grinds so violently against the Bible-only mentality.
Hey SteveGC,
that is not so you all try to come from different angles as for dogma it is you all who have the dogmas, my friend i stick to scripture. there have been some on here who without coming straight forward and saying it deny the very words spoken by Christ.
Christian1,