Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?

[morriec]

I am under the weather and for some strange reason, I decided to real all of Howie01’s 267postings since February. This was after reading several hours of the history of the early martys of the Church.

What I notice about Howie01 and so many others (including Catholics) is a lack of Charity. The early martyrs died for this?.

I pray for all of the posters at Catholic answers to pray to God to lead them into the Truth in a Spirit of Love.

 

[ProudJesusFreak]

I pray for all of the posters at Catholic answers to pray to God to lead them into the Truth in a Spirit of Love.

Well, there is only ONE truth and that is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS the way, the TRUTH and the life and no one can come to the father but by Him(John14:6). The truth does not lie within any building, office or organization, but in Christ alone.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I am under the weather and for some strange reason, I decided to real all of Howie01’s 267postings since February. This was after reading several hours of the history of the early martys of the Church.

What I notice about Howie01 and so many others (including Catholics) is a lack of Charity. The early martyrs died for this?.

I pray for all of the posters at Catholic answers to pray to God to lead them into the Truth in a Spirit of Love.

So you are comparing the deaths of the early martyrs, as compared to some uncharitable contents on this forum? Good grief…

 

[ProudJesusFreak]

Here’s our difference. You claim authority for yourself. I submit to authority. And why do I do this? Because I realize that the Bible cannot be my sole authority without something OUTSIDE of it that teaches me that it is worthy of my trust. That something is The Church. The book’s been in my face my whole life. And everybody tells me something different about it. So, I go to people who wrote the writings, and those that compiled and canonized the writings. Books come from people. People came first. Inspired people to make an inspired book. And I went to the only Church that not only claims to have been apostolic throughout the ages, but also teaches uniformly and universally throughout the entire world. That’s the Catholic Church.

Do I know, and can I prove 100% that this Church is the authentic real-deal? No. I suffer from living 2000 years later, just as you can’t prove 100% what you believe. Our counter-claims of authority are, after all, our own opinions. I don’t deny that. But, I am convinced of The Church’s proof of historical apostolic lineage. I am convinced of their biblical exegesis. I am 100% convinced of sacramental grace, and the monumental change it has made in my Christian life. But as an appeal to logic, what makes my claim of Church authority more reasonable than your claim of believer authority, I am convinced that Church is intended to be visible, that something about humans is concretely incipient to a book. And once I submit to that reality, it really leads nowhere else but Rome.

Scripture, in a sense, does teach me, but it doesn’t teach me in a vacuum, which is to say that it requires an authentic framework within which I prayerfully read, and the Holy Spirit guides me in understanding truths which the Church has revealed that perhaps I previously did not understand. The HS also guides me into application of teachings in my daily walk with Christ.

Steve,

Scripture is meant to teach us. And as we should all know as it is written in scripture, that it cannot lie. By the way, any bible believing Christian can 100% prove what they believe.

 

[morriec]

I pray for all of the posters at Catholic answers to pray to God to lead them into the Truth in a Spirit of Love.

Well, there is only ONE truth and that is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS the way, the TRUTH and the life and no one can come to the father but by Him(John14:6). The truth does not lie within any building, office or organization, but in Christ alone.

… does not lie within any building, office or organization

but that defys 2000 years of history. That is Truth.

 

[morriec]

So you are comparing the deaths of the early martyrs, as compared to some uncharitable contents on this forum? Good grief…

read some history of the martyrs and you might be moved to look at the disunity of the Christian faith with great sadness.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

I would contend that one who denies even one thing that Jesus taught… has denied Jesus… and is not a believer.

Ya gotta get a better grasp on the word believe.

The devil believes.

so that is your interpretation?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

He taught that so why not just trust in Him?

 

[SteveGC]

I find it amusing that all you could come up with was a lame quote on punctuation and pronunciation.

I’m not reading Augustine, or an of those early men in a vacuum. Most of them, when the full context of their statements regarding Tradition is read, refer to the Gospel, and other such things as can be verified by Scripture. Some refer to mundane things, such as the direction one turns when he prays, and what not. They don’t refer to much of what the Church today claims as tradition. You’re engaging in anachronism with respect to those early men if you think otherwise.

Of course, Steve. It’s all about you, and your silly quote.

More well poisoning, as if the well against Luther hasn’t been sufficiently poisoned already.

I’d put more Augustine up for grabs here, but I’m sure you’ll just employ Luther, who 1000 years later tells us what he ‘really’ meant. Suffice it to say that you accept Augustine if he rebukes Tradition and Church, and yet overlook that he was a Catholic Bishop and Doctor of The Church, the very Church you would claim he discredits as significant when it comes to interpreting Scripture. Do you think the Church would embrace him as a “Doctor” if he really refuted Tradition?

Look. I grow tired of the sarcasm, that both of us has engaged in. It’s been unproductive, clearly. I can’t even imagine that anyone reading our bantering is gaining an ounce from it. Maybe it’s me, but I find your tones from the very beginning to be condescending and snide. I’ve followed suit, unfortunately. Something I don’t normally do. You don’t answer my questions, and apparently I don’t answer yours. It’s been interesting having dialogue. But I can’t seem to talk to you without countering your sarcasm and that causes me stress I don’t need. Probably my own fault. Peace be with you.

 

[ProudJesusFreak]

Well, there is only ONE truth and that is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS the way, the TRUTH and the life and no one can come to the father but by Him(John14:6). The truth does not lie within any building, office or organization, but in Christ alone.

… does not lie within any building, office or organization

but that defys 2000 years of history. That is Truth.

What did I say that defies 2000 of history? Scripture says that Jesus is the truth, the life, the way, the head of the church, the chief cornerstone, ect. How is that defying history?

 

[morriec]

I’d put more Augustine up for grabs here, but I’m sure you’ll just employ Luther, who 1000 years later tells us what he ‘really’ meant. Suffice it to say that you accept Augustine if he rebukes Tradition and Church, and yet overlook that he was a Catholic Bishop and Doctor of The Church, the very Church you would claim he discredits as significant when it comes to interpreting Scripture. Do you think the Church would embrace him as a “Doctor” if he really refuted Tradition?

Look. I grow tired of the sarcasm, that both of us has engaged in. It’s been unproductive, clearly. I can’t even imagine that anyone reading our bantering is gaining an ounce from it. Maybe it’s me, but I find your tones from the very beginning to be condescending and snide. I’ve followed suit, unfortunately. Something I don’t normally do. You don’t answer my questions, and apparently I don’t answer yours. It’s been interesting having dialogue. But I can’t seem to talk to you without countering your sarcasm and that causes me stress I don’t need. Probably my own fault. Peace be with you.

Steve, I am very impressed with your knowledge of the faith and great patience. I can’t understand all of the anger that is evident in so many posts. God bless you.

 

[Howie01]

Here’s our difference. You claim authority for yourself. I submit to authority. And why do I do this? Because I realize that the Bible cannot be my sole authority without something OUTSIDE of it that teaches me that it is worthy of my trust. That something is The Church. The book’s been in my face my whole life. And everybody tells me something different about it. So, I go to people who wrote the writings, and those that compiled and canonized the writings. Books come from people. People came first. Inspired people to make an inspired book. And I went to the only Church that not only claims to have been apostolic throughout the ages, but also teaches uniformly and universally throughout the entire world. That’s the Catholic Church.

Do I know, and can I prove 100% that this Church is the authentic real-deal? No. I suffer from living 2000 years later, just as you can’t prove 100% what you believe. Our counter-claims of authority are, after all, our own opinions. I don’t deny that. But, I am convinced of The Church’s proof of historical apostolic lineage. I am convinced of their biblical exegesis. I am 100% convinced of sacramental grace, and the monumental change it has made in my Christian life. But as an appeal to logic, what makes my claim of Church authority more reasonable than your claim of believer authority, I am convinced that Church is intended to be visible, that something about humans is concretely incipient to a book. And once I submit to that reality, it really leads nowhere else but Rome.

Scripture, in a sense, does teach me, but it doesn’t teach me in a vacuum, which is to say that it requires an authentic framework within which I prayerfully read, and the Holy Spirit guides me in understanding truths which the Church has revealed that perhaps I previously did not understand. The HS also guides me into application of teachings in my daily walk with Christ.

Yes, are all of us former officers full of pettiness? Are you a former politician? Ducking and weaving your way through theology? Your “actually no, you’re wrong, Steve” comment is quite a convincing reason for me to believe it was me actually steering, not you. I concede.

Thank you, Steve.

 

[SteveGC]

Steve,

Scripture is meant to teach us. And as we should all know as it is written in scripture, that it cannot lie. By the way, any bible believing Christian can 100% prove what they believe.

We know that it cannot lie, but we don’t believe that because it merely says that. There’s something that precedes our reliance on Scripture. Humans introduced us to it, and humans teach it to us. To deny that is to deny the real history of our own Christian journey. The point is we must ensure that the humans Christ wants us learning from are the ones we are aligning ourselves with. Because we ultimately align our understanding of Scripture from these humans.

Go ahead and prove to me 100% what you believe. But first realize, I’m not saying that you can’t show me 100% what you’re taught. I’m saying no one can prove 100% that what they’re taught is actually the Truth. There are some convincing arguments for each side, none more convincing than historic apostolic succession and the need for human primacy with regard to teaching, but ultimately no one can prove the truths of their belief system 100%. If we could, we’d all be unified just by talking to one another. It’ll take the power of Grace to get us to that ultimate reality.

God Bless

 

[Jerry_Marino]

finally the truth.

 

[ProudJesusFreak]

We know that it cannot lie, but we don’t believe that because it merely says that. There’s something that precedes our reliance on Scripture. Humans introduced us to it, and humans teach it to us. To deny that is to deny the real history of our own Christian journey. The point is we must ensure that the humans Christ wants us learning from are the ones we are aligning ourselves with. Because we ultimately align our understanding of Scripture from these humans.

Go ahead and prove to me 100% what you believe. But first realize, I’m not saying that you can’t show me 100% what you’re taught. I’m saying no one can prove 100% that what they’re taught is actually the Truth. There are some convincing arguments for each side, none more convincing than historic apostolic succession and the need for human primacy with regard to teaching, but ultimately no one can prove the truths of their belief system 100%. If we could, we’d all be unified just by talking to one another. It’ll take the power of Grace to get us to that ultimate reality.

God Bless

Actually, GOD introduced us to scripture, not men. Question: If we know that scripture is true(it cannot lie) why would we then rely on fallible men to teach us what is laid out for us? My beliefs come straight from scripture.When my beliefs come straight from scripture, I can definitely prove that its the truth because scripture cannot lie.(You see the logic here)?

Scripture shows that Peter’s authority was shared by the other apostles (Ephesians 2:19-20), and the “loosing and binding” authority attributed to him was likewise shared by the local churches, not just their church leaders (see Matthew 18:15-19; 1 Corinthians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 13:10; Titus 2:15; 3:10-11).
Peter also never claimed to have authority over anyone, including the other apostles.

Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; and 1 Peter 5:1-5.

1 Peter 5:1-5 "To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,

“God opposes the proud

but gives grace to the humble.”

 

[SteveGC]

Actually, GOD introduced us to scripture, not men. **Question: If we know that scripture is true(it cannot lie) why would we then rely on fallible men to teach us what is laid out for us? **My beliefs come straight from scripture.When my beliefs come straight from scripture, I can definitely prove that its the truth because scripture cannot lie.(You see the logic here)?

No. I see zero logic there. God did not introduce you to Scripture. A human did. Retrace your life steps, and then tell me how you came to believe in the Bible. God did not put it in your hands. And he didn’t speak to you about it’s contents, nor its meaning. Even if you were born into an atheist family, with no mention of God…you couldn’t pick up a stray Bible one day and obtain the full truth of Christ’s teachings of faith and salvation, let alone teach it to someone else properly. For it was never intended to be used in such a manner. It is not nearly perspicuous enough to do that.

You might be able to glean that belief in Christ is required, and the full story in the Book may even lead you to put your faith in that. And I would contend this is why bible-only Christians believe that’s all you need, because that’s about all they can glean from Scripture on their own. That is Exhibit-A to the fact that you can’t receive the fullness of faith if you are Bible-alone. Others might be convinced that baptism is required, as is repentance. Others won’t be. Some will be a combination of things. None will agree. This is Exhibit-A to the disunity of Bible-alone Christianity.

So the answer to your question (which I bolded above)…we must rely on men to teach us, for it is because of them that we initially believe scripture is true, and atleast initially, how we put our faith in God. But we must find trustworthy men. Men truly of God, and anointed by Christ. And their ordained successors.

If I write a book, and in it I write that it is inspired by God, and cannot lie, are you going to accept that as your sole authority and put your eternal trust in it? Why not? This is essentially what the Bible is. A book about God which says you can trust it. Hmm. The Koran says that too. What’s the difference? The men who were entrusted to teach Christianity, including that which is included in the Bible, the NT of which they wrote, and both testaments of which they canonized…that’s the difference. We put our trust in the teachers, not the book, as Sacred as it truly is, and as inerrant as it truly is.

God Bless

 

[ProudJesusFreak]

No. I see zero logic there. God did not introduce you to Scripture. A human did. Retrace your life steps, and then tell me how you came to believe in the Bible. God did not put it in your hands. And he didn’t speak to you about it’s contents, nor its meaning. So the answer to your question (which I bolded above)…we must rely on men to teach us, for it is because of them that we initially believe scripture is true, and atleast initially, how we put our faith in God But we must find trustworthy men. Men truly of God, and anointed by Christ. And their ordained successors.

If I write a book, and in it I write that it is inspired by God, and cannot lie, are you going to accept that as your sole authority and put your eternal trust in it? Why not? This is essentially what the Bible is. A book about God which says you can trust it. Hmm. The Koran says that too. What’s the difference? The men who were entrusted to teach Christianity, including that which is included in the Bible, the NT of which they wrote, and both testaments of which they canonized…that’s the difference. We put our trust in the teachers, not the book, as Sacred as it truly is, and as inerrant as it truly is.

God Bless

Here is the logic again- You said no one can 100% prove what they believe. I go by strictly what is in scripture, nothing more. So, since I go by what it says IN scripture, I can prove what I believe. God’s Word had been proven true over and over throughout history. The actual logic is simple so I’m confused why you cannot follow it. You can say anything you want but you are not God. I was raised Church of Christ but I wasn’t touched by God until I was much much much older. God did lead me to Him,to His Word. Didn’t He lead you?

Trustworthy men? I find it difficult to trust men who lie to protect sexual molesters and child abusers(from Priests, Cardinals, Bishops and Popes). I cannot trust people that cover up lies and threaten the victims with ex-communication. I find it hard to trust someone who goes against what is Christ Himself taught.

 

[SteveGC]

Here is the logic again- You said no one can 100% prove what they believe. I go by strictly what is in scripture, nothing more. So, since I go by what it says IN scripture, I can prove what I believe. God’s Word had been proven true over and over throughout history. The actual logic is simple so I’m confused why you cannot follow it. You can say anything you want but you are not God. I was raised Church of Christ but I wasn’t touched by God until I was much much much older. God did lead me to Him,to His Word. Didn’t He lead you?

What is your definition of prove? You can show me something which PROVES Christ actually came to earth, suffered and died for us? You can PROVE that salvation is by faith alone? You can PROVE this because a BOOK says so?? You have FAITH that all of it is true. Just as I have faith that Peter was the rock that Christ built His Church on, and that baptism and obedience are also required for salvation. But we can’t PROVE anything. That’s the point I was trying to make with Howie. And I’m sure he would agree. I’m not sure why you don’t. I can’t prove to you my autobiography is true just by giving it to you to read, can I? That’s the claim you’re making with the Bible.

Look, I believe the Bible 100%. But it’s NOT because the Bible itself says it’s all true. I believe it because men Christ appointed wrote it and canonized it, and I align myself with them, and their successors to show me the true faith of Christianity, because they were incipient to the Bible. I declare the Bible inerrant because they declare it to be so, and I trust in them…which is also saying “I put my trust fully in Christ, who appointed them”. And I know you trust fully in Christ too, but you put much of your trust also in humans who teach you what the Bible means. In fact, just about everybody trusts the humans they’re taught by MORE than they trust their Bibles. This is just reality, whether admitted or not, and it attests to the fact that we must align ourselves with the ones who were truly SENT to teach and shepherd us.

Trustworthy men? I find it difficult to trust men who lie to protect sexual molesters and child abusers(from Priests, Cardinals, Bishops and Popes). I cannot trust people that cover up lies and threaten the victims with ex-communication. I find it hard to trust someone who goes against what is Christ Himself taught.

That’s a cheap shot, and an uncharitable generalization. I wonder how many pastors you’ve eagerly listened to and agreed with their teaching, that aren’t nearly as righteous as you might imagine them to be.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

steve in all sincerity, do you believe all that the church teaches (catechism) is to be true?

yes, men do teach but what we are saying is that God reveals His Truth to through the Holy Spirit and with that Truth at hand we can discern whether the man teaching is from God or not. now if you solely rely on man to tell you what is truth or not then you are in danger of being lead into doom.

i’ve put these following verses down before for you and others but only one caught it so here we go again:

**Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. 3 Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them.

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”**

do you know what a yoke is?

well back in the day it was said that when a young oxen was to be taken out to the field they’d team up the young bull with an old veteran. now the yoke was placed on the young one but it was not tied to him, he just walked along side the old timer learning from the master. the burden was light cause the old oxen was doing all the work.

what was Jesus mostly against?

the pharisees and scribes had the law in their hand and they interpreted to their benefit, though they knew the Scriptures they’d laid heavy loads on the people, that is why in matthew 23 Jesus speaks to the people about them, back in Matthew 11 Jesus tells the people who are heavy burdened and tired, tired of what?

doing what was put upon them by these teachers and Jesus says to them, “come to me and take upon my yoke for it is easy”

now we go back even further to this teaching of the law, the Scriptures.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 20 I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

i know by reading all the posts from catholics that they are still under the law because you all emphasize that the commandments must be kept. by no means am i saying it is o.k. to break these laws but what i am saying we do not live under the law but under grace for it is by faith that we are saved.

there are two commandments that Jesus emphasized and that is to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and also, to love your neighbor.

you say that it takes more than just to believe but this is what God says throughout His Word.

1 John 3:23 And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us.

i love you guys
Jesus loves you
God loves you
Trust solely in Jesus Christ for your salvation friends.

God bless you

 

[SteveGC]

Trustworthy men? I find it difficult to trust men who lie to protect sexual molesters and child abusers(from Priests, Cardinals, Bishops and Popes). I cannot trust people that cover up lies and threaten the victims with ex-communication. I find it hard to trust someone who goes against what is Christ Himself taught.

I imagine you didn’t mean what you said as much as I read into it…but nevertheless, I thought you might be interested in seeing the truth about this widespread problem throughout ALL of Christianity.

Click here

Bottom line…this problem has NOTHING to do with where authentic Christianity really lies.

God Bless

 

[SteveGC]

steve in all sincerity, do you believe all that the church teaches (catechism) is to be true? yes, men do teach but what we are saying is that God reveals His Truth to through the Holy Spirit and with that Truth at hand we can discern whether the man teaching is from God or not. now if you solely rely on man to tell you what is truth or not then you are in danger of being lead into doom.

Cart before the horse, Jerry. That’s the best way I think I can put it anymore. I’ve tried and tried to explain it. Thread after thread, post after post. Cart before the horse. The Bible wasn’t the first thing inspired. It was MEN. THAT’S where it ALL primarily lies. I’m not going to put my stamp of SOLE AUTHORITY in something that was inspired AS A RESULT of PRIOR inspiration. No. Give me the ORIGINAL Inspiration, thank you. That’s where truth is. It’s in the Bible too, but it’s in there because the HUMANS were inspired. I don’t go chasing after ANY OLD HUMANs, though. They MUST be the REAL DEAL. The ACTUAL MEN who retain apostleship. Apostleship means the unbroken lineage of ordination, starting with Peter and the 11, through the validly documented ECFs, on and on, up until 2009, and beyond. That’s where it is, friends.

It’s ALL Christ, mind you. ALL OF IT. 100%

But it’s not solely the Bible. No chance.

It’s THE MEN CHRIST APPOINTED.

Believe in Bible alone all you want. You can say it reveals all truth to you if you want. You can try to make excuses about why someone who proclaims the same Bible-alone mantra that you do disagrees with you about SALVIFIC DOCTRINE. But it’s transparent that your differences scream of Bible-alone inadequacy.

The written word DOESN’T say to JUST Believe, Jerry. It only says that if you cut and paste individual verses. If it meant JUST believe, it would’ve said “JUST”. But it doesn’t. Nothing says “JUST”. That’s why we also find things like “Baptism now saves you”, but NOT “JUST Baptism now saves you”. The Bible is an entire body of work, not a verse by verse mosaic we put together ourselves to make our theological claims.

God Bless