G
Ginger2
Guest
We refer to it as "Josephus’ canon. to distinguish the source of our information!
Quit nit-picking.
Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?
- Status
Quit nit-picking.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Jews wrote the books of the apocrypha as well.
The apocrypha was quoted or alluded to frequently in the new testament.
G
Ginger2
Guest
Being Jewish is not synonymous with being a prophet. God didn’t speak to every Jew directly.
Woody Allen is Jewish and an author. Do you consider his work inspired of God.
We’ve already proven this is false. Please don’t make us go thru it again. There is not one shed of proof that the Apocrypha were ever quoted in the New Testament.
Ginger
E
elvisman
Guest
**This is a silly argument. First of all, Josephus was a historian - NOT a member of the Jewish hierarchy - not a high Preist or scribe. He has no authority to declare any canon of scripture. **
Secondly, I never said he lied about anything. He accepted the Jabneh scriptural revisions, which are not valid because they happened AFTER Jesus died, and ascended. If he had already fulfilled the OT, how could he “re-fulfill” it because they chose to change it?
Lastly, for some reason, you refuse to accept that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law and that the Old Testament pointed to him. Anything done to the Old Testament canon AFTER Jesus is null and void.
E
elvisman
Guest
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
You’ve proven nothing.
We’ve already proven this is false. Please don’t make us go thru it again. There is not one shed of proof that the Apocrypha were ever quoted in the New Testament.
Ginger
Here’s one question of many that you won’t be able to answer:
When Paul spoke of the baptism of the dead, which Old Testament book was he referencing?
H
Hisalone
Guest
From post #340
Quote:
*Originally Posted by Hisalone
There are many Catholics who are born again and thus saved. Then again there are many who are not thus not saved. *
Who are YOU to say who is saved and who is not?
That is the sin of preumption.
Even St. Paul said about himself:
“No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”
Seems like you make up stuff as you go along.
E
elvisman
Guest
By the way - which question did I dodge?
This comment (along with many of your posts) leads me to believe that you and Hisalone are the same person.
E
elvisman
Guest
J
jargon631
Guest
QUOTE=Ginger2;
Woody Allen is Jewish and an author. Do you consider his work inspired of God.
well…i thought “sleeper” was pretty funny when i was a kid…:extrahappy:,fd
Woody Allen is Jewish and an author. Do you consider his work inspired of God.
well…i thought “sleeper” was pretty funny when i was a kid…:extrahappy:,fd
G
Ginger2
Guest
elvisman,
Your arguments are baseless. Provide a link to the documents from Jamnia so we can read them…oh that’s right!!! You don’t have any!
Stop throwing out baseless arguments and answer the question. This one first, then we can come back to the other:
The Jews were entrusted by God Himself as keepers of what we call the Old Testament. They took their responsibility very seriously and would never have done away with with inspired Scriptures.
Why would the Jews throw out inspired Scriptures?
Your arguments are baseless. Provide a link to the documents from Jamnia so we can read them…oh that’s right!!! You don’t have any!
Stop throwing out baseless arguments and answer the question. This one first, then we can come back to the other:
The Jews were entrusted by God Himself as keepers of what we call the Old Testament. They took their responsibility very seriously and would never have done away with with inspired Scriptures.
Why would the Jews throw out inspired Scriptures?
G
Ginger2
Guest
Just another example of a Catholic being wrong.
E
elvisman
Guest
**Tell me, Ginger - do you have any documents from Jamnia that prove your assertion? Ummm . . . I didn’t think so. **
The reason the group of Rabbis at Jabneh (Jamnia) wanted to rid themselves of the Greek Septuagint was the fact that early Christians were using it to convert Jews to Christianity. They grew resentful of the Greek translation becuase of this.
According to the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, the group convened at Jamnia wasn’t even officially authoritative - they didn’t have the binding authority to make the decision to close the OT canon!
Also - don’t forget that God had publicly turned away from the Jews as the “keepers of his word” when the Romans destroyed the Temple several years before Jamnia. As Steve Ray points out, "The old wine and wineskin (Judaism) was now replaced by new wine (the gospel) and new wineskins (the Church)."
E
elvisman
Guest
You didn’t answer my question. Just an immature, ad hominem attack.Just another example of a Catholic being wrong.
C
christian1
Guest
I’m new. But after reading up to this point, I think I might be able to clear up something.
I believe where catholics and protestants have a problem here is this.
Protestants believe that truth was always in existance. And they believe that God is not LIMITED to a specific man to accomplish His will. We thank all people for the good service they provide for God. But if we were to honestly consider what your saying when you say, ‘if it weren’t for the catholic etc…’ therefore the catholics are the first… therefore they are the correct…
And truthfully, I would have no problems with the catholic church if they did not meddle with the answer keys (scripture) they were given to preserve (speaking of dogma and tradition that change/ the gospel)
To say: the popes existed before the bible was written…how exactly does WHEN they came have anything to do with WHAT they currently teach?
To save you the trouble of asking: ‘what does the catholic church teach contrary to the word of God?’ let me tell you.
It teaches that a man is unable to commit error in matters of faith.
This is nowhere’s to be found in scripture. In fact, the contrary can be found.
Were not the Scribes and the Pharisees of Jesus time like the popes of the old testament?
Were these infallable? These that crucified the Christ?
Why then, are these popes deemed infallable?
But we should obey God rather than man. Isn’t that what Paul said to the popes of his day when they told him not to preach Jesus?
And how is it that saints are named only after they are dead and Paul named countless saints while they yet lived?
Is there a diferentiation in what Paul considered a Saint and what Catholics deem a saint?
E
elvisman
Guest
Matt. 16:18-19:
***And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. ***
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt. 18:17-18:
**If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. **
**Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **
Luke 10:15:
**Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." **
John 16:13-15:
**But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. **
**He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. **
**Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. **
1 Tim. 3:25:
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
S
SteveGC
Guest
How is this different from Catholic thinking?
Catholics don’t LIMIT God. Look, the very essence of Christianity is about God choosing to communicate to us within the limitations and confines of the human experience. This is the crux of the life of Christ. God could have communicated to us in countless ways, but he chooses humans to do it, whether it be a prophet, an apostle, or even God Himself born of a virgin. Bottom line, God’s universal messages have routinely been accomplished through limited humans. It continues this way to this day, and will most likely always be so.
What are you speaking of that has changed? Doctrine on faith and morals? Do you really know your history of Scripture and where it came from?
WHEN is important based on the reality that all people learn Christianity first from humans, not from Bibles. This has always been true, and will always be true. No one learned the salvific fundamentals (the essence of the Christian faith) by first reading the Bible. No one. The Holy Spirit isn’t a “private tutor” for everyone reading the Bible in a vacuum, teaching each one what they need to know about salvation through Christ. The Holy Spirit is first and foremost a guardian of the Church, a teacher to the apostles, ensuring Christ’s message is taught according to His will, for all time. For others, the Spirit dwells within us, guiding us in faith, helping us apply to our lives the truths as taught to us by the teachers within apostolic authority (succession).
The apostles were promised that the Holy Spirit would protect them from the gates of Hell. Christ will not let His message be tainted by the sins of man. Hence, The Church (The Pope and appointed Bishops) are protected from teaching error on faith and morals. Your OT reference has no bearing on the foundation of Christ’s Church and the proclamations He made to it. They are separate matters.
God Bless
S
Soutane
Guest
Elvisman-colourfully correct as usual.
E
elvisman
Guest
Gracias!Elvisman-colourfully correct as usual.
C
christian1
Guest
My response:
I’m sorry, but I agree with all of your scriptures of course, except the last one, I can’t find it. Did you maybe misquote it? It sounds familiar, what translation are you using?
I am familiar with all these scriptures and have no problems with them. I have no problem even with the Catholic Church or the universal church being the first church. That is really irrelevant to the real problems. The problem is apostasy in the original church. I’m not altogether sure where it began, but it is prevelant in your dogmas. Did you think Jesus was telling Peter to do as the former popes and priests of his day were doing? Creating doctrines of men that nullified God’s word? We already know what Jesus said about these sorts of “Christians” or “Popes” or whatever you want to label them with. When your dogmas or traditions begin to bring sin into the church, God does not ordain this.
By the way, the collective PEOPLE who belong to Christ, and are scattered abroad the entire world are the church. Remember, the tabernacle of God resides within the heart of man, not a building or religion. It is man, the temple in which God lives, that represents the body of Christ. I’m not saying that there aren’t buildings that the Church, the body of Christ, the saved, gather in, for the Church gathered in homes at first. The reason for the following scriptures is to shed light on what God’s word says about ‘the church’
Act 5:11 Then great fear came on all the church and on all who had knowledge of these things.
Act 8:1 And Saul gave approval to his death. Now at that time a violent attack was started against the church in Jerusalem; and all but the Apostles went away into all parts of Judaea and Samaria.
Act 8:3 But Saul was burning with hate against the church, going into every house and taking men and women and putting them in prison.
Act 11:26 And when he had come across him, he took him to Antioch. And they were with the church there for a year, teaching the people; and the disciples were first given the name of Christians in Antioch.
Act 14:27 And when they came there, and had got the church together, they gave them an account of all the things which God had done through them, and how he had made open a door of faith to the Gentiles.
Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the Apostles and the rulers and all the church, to send men from among them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; Judas, named Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brothers:
Rom 16:5 And say a kind word to the church which is in their house. Give my love to my dear Epaenetus, who is the first fruit of Asia to Christ.
The above scriptures show easily, that the church consists of followers of Christ. Also called the ‘body of Christ’ with Christ being the head.
This scripture below shows also, that it is man himself in which God dwells thorugh His Holy Spirit.
1Co 6:19 Or are you not conscious that your body is a house for the Holy Spirit which is in you, and which has been given to you by God? and you are not the owners of yourselves;
I like this one. For it shows that saints are not saints because of their perfect deeds or good deeds, but because of their position in God. "Saved by grace"
Eph 4:12 For the training of the saints as servants in the church, for the building up of the body of Christ:
Paul is preparing the church, the body, about wolves in sheeps clothing to come.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Indeed the Catholic Church, or the original church was THE CHURCH. But when sin entered in and directly contradicted the gospel of Christ, people left it. The catholic church in it’s purest form, has been hi-jacked by traditions and dogmas that nullify God’s word. Just like the scribes and pharisees did back in the day. Whom by the way, ‘were the official chosen of God of His church’ back then. Isn’t that correct? And if the ‘chosen of God’ did sin and did lead many astray even killing the Son of God, why then is the pope any different? Scriptures please.
And if you want to use dogma, please refer to what scripture it upholds.
Paul and Christ would not have warned against error, if in fact there would be such a one who would be exempt from it.
That is why they were told to look at the works. Their works, the dogma, traditions, of the catholic church, should be in complete harmony with the word of God. As it stands, on many grounds, it is in direct contradiction. Beginning with having to be catholic to enter heaven (unless ignorant of catholocism) and assuming that mary was assumed into Heaven as well as but hardly the least, the many scapulars that hold powers when worn, granting favors and protections despite sins committed.
I’m sorry, but I agree with all of your scriptures of course, except the last one, I can’t find it. Did you maybe misquote it? It sounds familiar, what translation are you using?
I am familiar with all these scriptures and have no problems with them. I have no problem even with the Catholic Church or the universal church being the first church. That is really irrelevant to the real problems. The problem is apostasy in the original church. I’m not altogether sure where it began, but it is prevelant in your dogmas. Did you think Jesus was telling Peter to do as the former popes and priests of his day were doing? Creating doctrines of men that nullified God’s word? We already know what Jesus said about these sorts of “Christians” or “Popes” or whatever you want to label them with. When your dogmas or traditions begin to bring sin into the church, God does not ordain this.
By the way, the collective PEOPLE who belong to Christ, and are scattered abroad the entire world are the church. Remember, the tabernacle of God resides within the heart of man, not a building or religion. It is man, the temple in which God lives, that represents the body of Christ. I’m not saying that there aren’t buildings that the Church, the body of Christ, the saved, gather in, for the Church gathered in homes at first. The reason for the following scriptures is to shed light on what God’s word says about ‘the church’
Act 5:11 Then great fear came on all the church and on all who had knowledge of these things.
Act 8:1 And Saul gave approval to his death. Now at that time a violent attack was started against the church in Jerusalem; and all but the Apostles went away into all parts of Judaea and Samaria.
Act 8:3 But Saul was burning with hate against the church, going into every house and taking men and women and putting them in prison.
Act 11:26 And when he had come across him, he took him to Antioch. And they were with the church there for a year, teaching the people; and the disciples were first given the name of Christians in Antioch.
Act 14:27 And when they came there, and had got the church together, they gave them an account of all the things which God had done through them, and how he had made open a door of faith to the Gentiles.
Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the Apostles and the rulers and all the church, to send men from among them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; Judas, named Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brothers:
Rom 16:5 And say a kind word to the church which is in their house. Give my love to my dear Epaenetus, who is the first fruit of Asia to Christ.
The above scriptures show easily, that the church consists of followers of Christ. Also called the ‘body of Christ’ with Christ being the head.
This scripture below shows also, that it is man himself in which God dwells thorugh His Holy Spirit.
1Co 6:19 Or are you not conscious that your body is a house for the Holy Spirit which is in you, and which has been given to you by God? and you are not the owners of yourselves;
I like this one. For it shows that saints are not saints because of their perfect deeds or good deeds, but because of their position in God. "Saved by grace"
Eph 4:12 For the training of the saints as servants in the church, for the building up of the body of Christ:
Paul is preparing the church, the body, about wolves in sheeps clothing to come.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Indeed the Catholic Church, or the original church was THE CHURCH. But when sin entered in and directly contradicted the gospel of Christ, people left it. The catholic church in it’s purest form, has been hi-jacked by traditions and dogmas that nullify God’s word. Just like the scribes and pharisees did back in the day. Whom by the way, ‘were the official chosen of God of His church’ back then. Isn’t that correct? And if the ‘chosen of God’ did sin and did lead many astray even killing the Son of God, why then is the pope any different? Scriptures please.
And if you want to use dogma, please refer to what scripture it upholds.
Paul and Christ would not have warned against error, if in fact there would be such a one who would be exempt from it.
That is why they were told to look at the works. Their works, the dogma, traditions, of the catholic church, should be in complete harmony with the word of God. As it stands, on many grounds, it is in direct contradiction. Beginning with having to be catholic to enter heaven (unless ignorant of catholocism) and assuming that mary was assumed into Heaven as well as but hardly the least, the many scapulars that hold powers when worn, granting favors and protections despite sins committed.
- Status