Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?

[TobyLue]

christian1

You have to wonder why the catholic church has decided to change the Word of God that clearly says that it only took him to offer himself once for our sins. But the church offers his blood and body daily. Why the contradiciton of scriptures?

The Catholic Church has done no such thing. Regrettably it has been protestants who think they know what the CC teaches but get it all wrong and do their own self-interpretation of scripture. They will look at bits and pieces and then point out “See, this is what the CC is doing and its wrong”. I’ll be willing to bet that’s how you got convinced to leave the CC. But, stick sround christian1 and you will see and be taught by many here that the CC is the only Church that has the fullnes and the correct teachings of Christ. During the mass, Jesus is not sacrificed over and over again. Thats the number 1 mistake that many protestants make.
Catholics fully agree with Heb 10:12
I’ll quote from this link since its rather short:

***Understanding the Mass Part I - ***

A Unique Sacrifice Made Present

*by: *Marcellino D’Ambrosio

Even Catholics who don’t know much about their faith have some vague awareness that they’re supposed to go to Mass on Sunday. Ask them to describe the Mass, though, and they might tell you that it involves an introduction, a conclusion, and a collection! The Mass (also called the Eucharist or the Divine Liturgy) has two main parts, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. But rather than analyze its parts, I’d like to examine the Mass as a whole in terms of its three principal aspects. Now and always, the Mass involves a sacrifice, the presence of Christ, and a meal.

It’s important to know what the Church means by the “sacrifice” of the Mass. The term is easily misunderstood and has caused much strife among Christians.

First of all, Church teaching reiterates what Scripture states very clearly: there is no other sacrifice except the one offered by Jesus on Calvary. Hebrews 10:12 says that Christ “offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins.” That sacrifice cannot be repeated. The Mass, therefore, is not a repetition; it is a re-presentation of that sacrifice.
Because Christ was a unique human being, the sacrifice He offered on the cross once and for all is a unique act. He was a human being, so it was an act that took place in history and is therefore past. He is God, who is outside of time: past and future are always present to Him. This means that His death and resurrection are eternal acts that can be made present by the power of the Spirit.

This is exactly what happens in the Eucharist. The power of Calvary — the sacrifice that takes away sins, heals, and transforms — becomes present and available to us. It can be applied to our need.

But that’s not all. The cross is incomplete without the Resurrection. You can’t understand what happened on Good Friday apart from what happened two days later on Easter Sunday. This means that the Resurrection, too, is made present every time the Eucharist is celebrated. When we go to Mass, we’re present at the foot of the cross, watching the Savior give His life for us. And we’re outside the open tomb with the risen Jesus and the women who greeted Him on that resurrection morning. “This is for you. I give My life to you,” Jesus is saying. “Receive My power.”
Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice in order to bring us salvation and give us His Spirit. Pentecost is the fruit of the sacrifice of the Cross and the victory of the Resurrection. Thus, the Church teaches that every Mass is a new Pentecost, a new opportunity to receive the Spirit afresh (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 739).

To sum up, the Mass is Christ’s sacrifice made present again. It’s not recalled, as if it had been absent or were merely a past event. It’s re-presented

 

[jlhargus]

i have a crown am i a king? God bless you

JL: If Mary’s son is the Son of David and King in David’s line, then Mary is Gebirah=Queen Mother in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of Israel in the line of king David=Kingdom of God. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID, and upon HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even FOR EVER. The zeal of THE LORD of hosts WILL PERFORM THIS.

[Lk 1:31 And, behold, THOU SHALT CONCEIVE in thy womb, AND BRING FORTH A SON, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED the SON OF THE HIGHEST: and THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 HE WILL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER, his kingdom will have no end.] Jesus is King in the line of David, Mary is Queen Mother, or Gebirah in Hebrew. Queen Mother was an office in the Davidic Kingdom, form Solomon, the son of David, till the last earthly king IN DAVID’S LINE.

1Kgs8:18 And the LORD said unto David my father, Whereas it was in thine heart to build an house unto my name, thou didst well that it was in thine heart. 19 Nevertheless THOU SHALT NOT BUILD THE HOUSE; BUT THY SON thy son THAT shall COME FORTH OUT OF THY LOINS, he SHALL BUILD THE HOUSE UNTO MY NAME. [2Sam 7:13 HE SHALL BUILD A HOUSE for my name and I WILL ESTABLISH the throne of HIS KINGDOM FOR EVER.] Christ the Son of David is building an everlasting spiritual kingdom. Christ builds with living stones, regenerating the old earthly Davidic kingdom, of God, into the new spiritual heavenly kingdom of God.

[Mt19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That YE WHICH have FOLLOWED ME, IN THE REGENERATION when THE SON OF MAN SHALL SIT IN THE THRONE of his glory, YE ALSO SHALL SIT UPON twelve THRONES, JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Lk22:28 YE are they which HAVE CONTINUED WITH ME IN MY TEMPTATIONS. 29 And I APPOINT UNTO YOU A KINGDOM, AS my Father hath APPOINTED UNTO ME; 30 That YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE in my kingdom, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, SIMON, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR THEE, that THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and when thou art converted, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.] The kingdom, where we eat and drink at the LORD’s TABLE, we call it MASS today. Peter is First Minister as he is given the keys to that kingdom, Christ the king, holds the keys by right, and delegates his authority with those keys to his First Minister, [Isa 22:19-22 & Mt 16:13-19]. That Kingdom is for all people in all places and all times, therefore Christ is Universal Catholic King and his mother is Universal Catholic Gebirah=Queen in the regenerated spiritual Universal=Catholic Davidic Kingdom.

[1Kgs2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And THE KING ROSE up TO MEET HER, AND BOWED HIMSELF UNTO HER, and sat down on his throne, AND CAUSED A SEAT TO BE SET FOR THE KING’S MOTHER; and SHE SAT ON HIS RIGHT HAND.] Mk10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

[REV 11:19 And THE TEMPLE OF GOD WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN and THERE WAS SEEN in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail RV 12:1 And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER in heaven A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN and the MOON UNDER HER FEET and UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS 2 And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered] The woman is a person=Mary and a collective, symbolic of the Church, Old and New Covenant people of God. Twelve stars, universal queen, queen of heaven and earth. [Eph3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,]

[RV 12:5 And SHE BROUGHT FORTH A MAN CHILD who was TO RULE ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne] To rule ALL NATIONS, universal king, the child is a person=Christ and collective, symbolic of the Davidic Kingdom.

Jer 52:1 ZEDIKIAH was twenty-one years old when he became KING, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. HIS MOTHER’S NAME was HAMUTAL, daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.

2 Kgs 21:1 MANASSEH was twelve years old when he became
KING, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. HIS MOTHER’S NAME was HEPHZIBAH.

2 Kgs 8:26 Two and twenty years old was AHAZIAH when he began to reign; and HE REIGNED one year in Jerusalem. And HIS MOTHER’S NAME WAS ATHALIAH, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

Jer 13:18 Say to THE KING and to THE QUEEN MOTHER, Come down from YOUR THRONES, for your glorious CROWNS will fall from your heads. 19 The cities in the Negev will be shut up, and there will be no one to open them. All Judah will be carried into exile, carried completely away.

1Kgs8:20 And THE LORD HATH PERFORMED HIS WORD that he spake, and I AM RISEN UP in the room of David my father, AND SIT ON THE THRONE OF ISRAEL, AS THE LORD PROMISED, AND have BUILT AN HOUSE FOR the name of THE LORD GOD OF ISRAEL. 21 And I HAVE SET THERE A PLACE FOR THE ARK, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.

 

[jlhargus]

To whomever:
But what does the Bible say concerning the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the Cross? Hebrews 10:10-14, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man [Jesus Christ], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God,- From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. "

You have to wonder why the catholic church has decided to change the Word of God that clearly says that it only took him to offer himself once for our sins. But the church offers his blood and body daily. Why the contradiciton of scriptures?

JL: Christian1, please feel free not to answer my posts. I see you have sincere questions. I will just post what I think you may find helpful. May God bless you and may the Holy Spirit give you light.

JL: What did Christ finish on the cross, Paul says, If Christ be not raised your faith is vain you are yet in your sins. 1Cor 15:17 Christ our High Priest had to enter the Holy of Holies with his blood, to make atonement, just as the OT High Priest entered the earthly Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrifice, to make atonement. Christ entered once into the true tabernacle not made by hands, were he ever lives the Lamb of God once slain, who takes away the sins of the world as our one mediator, interceding for us bringing to remembrance that PURE OFFERING, this IS my body, this IS my blood, the sacrifice of the cross, showing HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD before the Father and MAKING PRESENT to his people, the Church, his once for all sacrifice on the cross. The bread of life and the blood of the New Covenant.
[Ex 25:30 And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always] The bread of the Presence is placed on a table before the Presence of God above the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. The Temple bread of the Presence is a type and foreshadowing, of Christ and his real Presence, as the bread of life, who will stand in the midst of the throne bringing to remembrance the sacrifice of the cross, before the Father. [Rv 5:6 …in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating for us ever showing forth and making present his once for all sacrifice. Jesus Christ, our living High Priest who lives, ever to mediate, making intercession for us showing forth to the Father and making present to us, that we might eat our Passover Lamb, as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. That same, once for all sacrifice of the cross. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same once done MADE PRESENT to us a living memorial sacrifice. [For from the rising to going down of the sun in everyplace a pure offering=sacrifice will be made, Malachi 1:1 Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne … stood a Lamb as it had been slain… Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hb 7:24 … this man…continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever livets to make intercession for them. … Hb 8…We have such an high priest… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore IT IS OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMEWHAT ALSO TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 … serve to the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS… … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry… mediator of a better covenant …
Christ is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father and mediating by making ever present to the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross which we eat at Mass, just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. [JN 6:55 My flesh is meat indeed, my blood is drink indeed. Malacahi 1:11 …from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE incense shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING]
The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will have and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also… The OT offerings where clean but not pure only Christ our sacrifice is pure. Just as prophesied, the fruit of the the Tree of Life=Cross our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass. Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people 1Jn 2:2 HE IS AN OFFERING FOR OUR SINS and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.

 

[jlhargus]

**To Jlhargus: You said:**JL: You misunderstand, because you do not want to see. There is ONE, Immacuate Conception, Mary was conceived without sin. John the Baptist was sactified in the womb six months after his conception. Both were born without sin. And if you do not hold to original sin, then you believe all are conceived and born without sin.

:It makes you have to ask: what of the scripture that declares “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”? Romans 3:23

JL:If ALL HAVE SINNED without exception, every human being without exception? Then the Word, Jesus, became flesh, born of flesh, cannot be an exception. infants, or children before they can reason, have not all sinned. Can the mentally handicapped commit personal sin? We know Christ was without sin, so we have one definite exception already. That means ALL DID NOT SIN. If Christ is an exception there can be others. Children alone would represent millions of other exceptions.

Paul does not mean, “ALL”, as every single human being, without exception, otherwise Christ could not be an exception. Paul is saying, “ALL”, have sinned without DISTINCTION, between Jews and Gentiles. ALL Jews are not without sin, simply because they are God’s chosen people. As groups or nations ALL have sinned, collectively not every individual human being.

[Rm3:9 What then? ARE WE BETTER THAN THEY? No, in NO wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, no, NOT ONE: Paul also says, Rm3:10 “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS”, Yet scripture says, Lk1:5 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And THEY WERE BOTH RIGHTEOUS before God, WALKING in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS, Mt13:17 … MANY prophets and RIGHTEOUS MEN have desired to see those things which ye see, Jms5:16 … The effectual fervent prayer OF A RIGHTEOUS MAN availeth much.

:Sanctify does not mean without sin. It means set apart for God and to cleanse. Exo 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine. If what you are saying is true about John the Baptist, then it is true for Jeremiah. Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

JL: [Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and HE SHALL BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.] John the Baptist was sanctified by being filled with the Holy Spirit, not because he was set apart as in consecrated or dedicated in the womb. John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. One of the things Adam lost for all humanity was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Original sin is not an actual sin, but a lack of the life of God within, we are not born deserving eternal life, that which is born of flesh is flesh, we are not born with the Holy Spirit in us. That’s why we baptise infants, to restore supernatural life to the soul.]

The soul of the precursor was not preserved immaculate at its union with the body, but was sanctified either shortly after conception from a previous state of sin, or through the presence of Jesus at the Visitation. Again it is remarked that a peculiar privilege was granted to the prophet Jeremiah and to St. John the Baptist. They were sanctified in their mother’s womb, because by their preaching they had a special share in the work of preparing the way for Christ. (Catholic Encyclopedia)

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm Move down to, The conception of John the Baptist.

 

[jlhargus]

**To Jlhargus: You said:**JL: You misunderstand, because you do not want to see. There is ONE, Immacuate Conception, Mary was conceived without sin. John the Baptist was sactified in the womb six months after his conception. Both were born without sin. And if you do not hold to original sin, then you believe all are conceived and born without sin.

:The other problem with this notion is, there is no biblical evidence showing Mary was born without sin, so why even suggest such? Why would such a suggestion even come up? It has no scriptural origins?
Am I misunderstanding your entire position on this?

I disagree, it may not be explicit but it is implicit. The trinity is not explicitly stated in scripture, either. But can be discerned, thru the lived out Apostolic Tradition.

We are told in the book of Hebrews what the ark of the old covenant contained, [Hb9:4 … the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, WHEREIN WAS the golden pot that had MANNA, and AARON’S ROD that budded, and the TABLES OF THE CONVENANT;] Mary the ark of the new covenant, wherein was; the MANNA= CHRIST, TRUE BREAD OF LIFE, AARON’S ROD=CHRIST, TRUE HIGH PRIEST, TEN COMMANDMENTS=CHRIST, TRUE WORD OF GOD. [Ex25:8 And let them MAKE ME A SANCTUARY; THAT I MAY DWELL AMONG THEM. 9 ACCORDING TO ALL that I SHEW THEE, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 Have them MAKE A CHEST OF ACACIA WOOD—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 OVERLAY IT WITH PURE GOLD, BOTH INSIDE AND OUT, and make a gold molding around it. Ex25:40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.]

If the Lord wanted the ark of the old covenant, made by hands, made to exact pattern and specific detail, from acacia wood and covered inside and out with PURE GOLD, that he may dwell among us. How much more would he cover the acacia wood=flesh, body and soul, of the living ark of the new covenant, not made by hands, with the purity of the Holy Spirit inside and out, that he may dwell among us. Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent Because thou hast done this thou art cursed… 15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel [God said, he would put ENMITY between THEE=Satan and THE WOMAN=Mary. Her seed would only come after her, yet God put enmity between Satan and Mary before. Mary would always be at enmity with Satan, as she was never of his seed, therefore not under sin. There was never a time when Mary or her SEED was not at enmity with Satan.

ROM 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death but to be spiritually minded is life and peace 7 Because the CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY against God [Mary was always at enmity with Satan as God said I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN THEE (SATAN) AND THE WOMAN (MARY).] JAS 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith God resisteth the proud but GIVEGTH GRACE UNTO THE HUMBLE…

LK 1:46 And MARY SAID MY SOUL DOTH MAGNIFY THE LORD 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour 48 For HE HATH REGARDED THE LOW ESTATE OF HIS HANDMAIDEN for behold from henceforth ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED 49 For HE THAT IS MIGHTY HATH DONE TO ME GREAT THINGS and holy is his name. …52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats and EXALTED THEM OF LOW DEGREE

LK 1:28 And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art HIGHLY FAVOURED the LORD IS WITH THEE blessed art thou among women 29 … 30 And the angel said unto her Fear not MARY for THOU HAST FOUND FAVOUR WITH GOD [Hail, the angel salutes Mary as a dignitary, or as one of importance. He calls her, Highly favoured or “full of grace”, Mary was in a state of grace and the Lord was already with her before the angel came. Usually angels are shown reverence, by one falling on their face, but this time an angel shows reverence to a person.]

In the garden of Eden, Satan spoke only to Eve, who was created without sin. Eve spoke to Adam and gave him the apple. Had Adam, the head of the human race, not eaten the apple we would still be in the Garden of Eden. Adam was head and represented all humanity, his sin cause the lose of the indwelling life of God. It was thru Eve’s cooperation with Satan that sin entered the world. It is thru the new Eve, Mary, who was conceived without sin, who cooperated with God, that salvation enters the world, thru Christ who is head and represents all humanity. Mary undid what Eve caused, Christ undid what Adam caused.

John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible. The immaculate conception is not a great leap of faith at all.

 

[christian1]

To JL:

Your explanation of the sacrifice was… flawless and beautiful. Thank you for helping me understand exactly what you believe.

I wonder. Would God be willing to perform this miracle for a lowly servant in a remote place whom had no access to a man of God?

 

[christian1]

To JL

What then of the sin inherited from Adam? Is this not why Jesus was the only one exempt from it? While he retained the form of a human, through the woman, His Father was God, not Adam. He was the second Adam. Born of God without sin but through the womb of a woman. Lived without sin. Died without sin. This is how He was sinless and how all the rest of us inherited the sin of Adam. We are all born into sin in this way. For the sins were passed through the fathers. God was Jesus’ father and therefore, He did not inherit the sin of Adam as the rest of us did.

What do you think?

 

[christian1]

To JL
YOu said:
If the Lord wanted the ark of the old covenant, made by hands, made to exact pattern and specific detail, from acacia wood and covered inside and out with PURE GOLD, that he may dwell among us. How much more would he cover the acacia wood=flesh, body and soul, of the living ark of the new covenant, not made by hands, with the purity of the Holy Spirit inside and out, that he may dwell among us. Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

But the scriptures tell us that mans heart is the new temple of God now. This is how He chose to dwell with us.

Mary is not that temple, but a vessel that brought forth the sacrifice. I don’t diminish her role or mean to discredit her position at all. She is blessed I know to have been privelaged with carrying the savior. But you cannot say she is the new Ark of the covenant. Each man holds the Ark of the covenant within his heart as the scriptures say.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

What do you think?

 

[SteveGC]

can i offer a response to the “ark” question?

the difference in the “ark” and the covenant and temple verses you provided is that the “ark” is the deliverer of the Word (in the NT, Mary is the deliverer of the Word made flesh). The ark protects, delivers, glorifies and magnifies the Lord. The new temple, that our bodies are due to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is different from the concept of the ark. JL may provide a better explanation.

 

[christian1]

To JL:
you said:
LK 1:28 And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art HIGHLY FAVOURED the LORD IS WITH THEE blessed art thou among women 29 … 30 And the angel said unto her Fear not MARY for THOU HAST FOUND FAVOUR WITH GOD

*I find this most suitable even if she were only to remain a servant of God without the doctrines created about her. *

*Daniel was highly favored as well. David was too. And so was Mary. She was humble. God loved humble and that is why He chose her. *

Hail, the angel salutes Mary as a dignitary, or as one of importance.

I* find this word used interchangably and it means what I posted earlier in the greek. Be of good cheer. Am I missing some missing definition to this?*

He calls her, Highly favoured or “full of grace”, Mary was in a state of grace and the Lord was already with her before the angel came.

Many people in the bible found the same favour and grace being similar humble servants as she.

Usually angels are shown reverence, by one falling on their face, but this time an angel shows reverence to a person.]

What about the angel showing reverance for Daniel? I don’t like your choice of wording though. They simply spoke the truth about God’s feelings for the person.
Don’t forget how God felt about David. Do you see how it is the same? I don’t understand why the overreaching here.

It seems like your trying to make a puzzle with pieces that almost fit, if you really press hard. But why?

 

[christian1]

To JL
you said:
In the garden of Eden, Satan spoke only to Eve, who was created without sin. Eve spoke to Adam and gave him the apple. Had Adam, the head of the human race, not eaten the apple we would still be in the Garden of Eden. Adam was head and represented all humanity, his sin cause the lose of the indwelling life of God. It was thru Eve’s cooperation with Satan that sin entered the world.

See, this is a good point, but it’s not yours though. Eve did sin. But it was Adam that bore it for both. For the man is the head of the woman. This is how Mary did not have to be sin free in order to bear the Christ. Only one had to be sinfree. The father. That’s why God had to be the father.

you said: Just as It is thru the new Eve, Mary, who was conceived without sin,

you keep saying this and I find still no scriptural evidence to this apart from what we have covered.

you said: who cooperated with God, that salvation enters the world, thru Christ who is head and represents all humanity. Mary undid what Eve caused, Christ undid what Adam caused.

You are right about what Christ did, but have no proof or authority to say this about Mary. Mary was born of Adam, therefore she inherited the sin. But it was not necessary for Mary to be sinfree, only the Father.

 

[christian1]

To Steve GC
the difference in the “ark” and the covenant and temple verses you provided is that the “ark” is the deliverer of the Word (in the NT, Mary is the deliverer of the Word made flesh). The ark protects, delivers, glorifies and magnifies the Lord. The new temple, that our bodies are due to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is different from the concept of the ark. JL may provide a better explanation.

---

The function of the Ark became obsolete when God made His dwelling within man. It is in our hearts that He meets us and resides.

Am I missing a point maybe?

 

[christian1]

To JL

you said:
John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible. The immaculate conception is not a great leap of faith at all.

No, it doesn’t say he was born without original sin. Filled with the Holy Spirit, sanctified in the womb does not mean born without original sin.

Jeramiah was sanctified in the womb. It doesn’t always mean to cleanse from sin. It also means to set apart for God, for a purpose. John the baptist, Jesus, and Jeramiah fit these qualifications for such a definition. But it never said anything about Mary being such either.

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[SteveGC]

The function of the Ark became obsolete when God made His dwelling within man. It is in our hearts that He meets us and resides.

Am I missing a point maybe?

Nothing in the OT became obsolete. Jesus did not come to abandon the law, but to fulfill it. In this, He brought to realization prophesies of the OT (which I know you understand). I assume you also know about typology…foreshadowing, etc? The material “ark” of the old - carrying the material tablets of the Word, has **now **become the physical ark of the new (Mary) - carrying the physical embodiment of the Word (Christ).

Typology also explains the relationship of leadership between Eliakim in Isaiah 22, and Peter in Matt 16. (different painful subject, i know).

 

[SteveGC]

No, it doesn’t say he was born without original sin. Filled with the Holy Spirit, sanctified in the womb does not mean born without original sin.

Jeramiah was sanctified in the womb. It doesn’t always mean to cleanse from sin. It also means to set apart for God, for a purpose. John the baptist, Jesus, and Jeramiah fit these qualifications for such a definition. But it never said anything about Mary being such either.

I don’t see how you can think that being FILLED with the Holy Spirit, which directly infers that Grace is received, is contrary to not having original sin, also directly inferring that Grace is received. It’s the same Grace. Original sin is a Lack of Grace (for Adam DISgraced us all). And the Holy Spirit imparts upon us this missing Grace. You can’t be FILLED with the Holy Spirit, AND be DISgraced.

 

[MrS]

To JL:
you said:
LK 1:28 And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art HIGHLY FAVOURED the LORD IS WITH THEE blessed art thou among women 29 … 30 And the angel said unto her Fear not MARY for THOU HAST FOUND FAVOUR WITH GOD

*I find this most suitable even if she were only to remain a servant of God without the doctrines created about her. *

*Daniel was highly favored as well. David was too. And so was Mary. She was humble. God loved humble and that is why He chose her. *

Hail, the angel salutes Mary as a dignitary, or as one of importance.

I* find this word used interchangably and it means what I posted earlier in the greek. Be of good cheer. Am I missing some missing definition to this?*

He calls her, Highly favoured or “full of grace”, Mary was in a state of grace and the Lord was already with her before the angel came.

Many people in the bible found the same favour and grace being similar humble servants as she.

Usually angels are shown reverence, by one falling on their face, but this time an angel shows reverence to a person.]

What about the angel showing reverance for Daniel? I don’t like your choice of wording though. They simply spoke the truth about God’s feelings for the person.
Don’t forget how God felt about David. Do you see how it is the same? I don’t understand why the overreaching here.

It seems like your trying to make a puzzle with pieces that almost fit, if you really press hard. But why?

To substitute “highly favored” for “full of grace” presents a problem. The former, in English, could suggest levels of favor, and imply only “a” and not the ultimate level. Protestants prefer this, obviously.

But the original Greek word which Luke used, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is a perfect past participle. It does not “suggest” anything… rather it declares Mary as one who always had, and will continue forever to have a fullness of grace. This is not possible with original sin (Catholics believe that Mary’s Savior, Jesus, removed her sin prior to conception). This is not possible without God’s grace to keep her sinless.

Additionally, the angel does NOT say “Hail Mary, full of grace…” He does NOT address her and then qualify her.

The angel declares her unique state by actually calling her “Hail, Full Of Grace…” !!!

No other person in all of Scripture receives this singular honor. Some are blessed for what they have done. But only Mary is the one whom “…all generations shall call me blessed”.

All generations… then and now. All of God’s children, then and now. You too:yup:

.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one? the Holy Spirit

 

[MrS]

Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one? the Holy Spirit

I noticed there was no period after Spirit, so I want to assume you left the thought unfinished.

Allow me to offer…

…? the Holy Spirit … will not divide us and will not mislead us. Thus, when we see all the different protestant interpretations of verses pulled out of context from the Catholic Book, the Bible… and each claims the Holy Spirit guides them… we clearly see that at least all but one of them is WRONG.

Perhaps, at best, the Holy Spirit is keeping each of them from even greater error (temporarily), as He attempts to bring them home to the only Church founded by Jesus Christ.

.

 

[elvisman]

Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one? the Holy Spirit

Well, that’s about as vague as it gets. How does he let you know? How does he let the guy down the street know who has a completely different understanding than you? How about the pastor accross town? How about the tens of thousands of different Protestant sects accross the country?

**You dodged my post #741 and now you’re dodging another one of my responses to your remarks (post #791). **
Try answering this one at least . . .

 

[orange_man]

Well, that’s about as vague as it gets. How does he let you know? How does he let the guy down the street know who has a completely different understanding than you? How about the pastor accross town? How about the tens of thousands of different Protestant sects accross the country?

You dodged my post #741 and now you’re dodging another one of my responses to your remarks (post #791).
Try answering this one at least . . .

I might agree that proclaiming the Holy Spirit is our guide constitutes a vague response (though I would add that colorizing half of your words makes responding to your posts unnecessarily difficult … LOL).

The Holy Spirit opens our hearts to Christ and through His workings God initiates our faith. However, we are still endowed with reason and intelligence, so we should never undervalue good old fashioned reading comprehension.

To say the Holy Spirit enables our ability to interpret scripture isn’t wrong, but to deny the role our rational intelligence plays is a fallacy (and can even be dangerous and overly divisive). After all if you have numerous parties who all disagree with one another … and they all claim superior spiritual insight, then what rational basis would we have to figure out who is right? Moreover, you will inevitably have people charging others who disagree with their views with false profession of faith.

Didn’t Paul say that we can only say Jesus is Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit? If that is true (and I believe it is) then all the faithful in Christ are endowed with the Spirit. Hence, saying the spirit is our guide doesn’t really add anything right? Yes the spirit is our guide, but when the spirit enters us He does not erase our intellect.