Protestants: How would you define Christ's Church?

[elvisman]

My first “we” was responding to someone’s (your’s?) question to Protestants. "

The other “WE” is meaning all those that love and follow Christ (the Church) regardless of denomination. It seems like Catholics focus so much on the Eucharist body of Christ, they may neglect the body that is the Church/followers/family of God. Like there were many Jewish sects, yet to my knowledge they are all considered part of his chosen nation of Israel, there are many Christian sects that are part of his nation of Christ/New Jerusalem.

I don’t speak as if to say that Protestants don’t love Christ. I know you probably do follow his as you think you’re supposed to.

What I’m telling you is that Jesus instituted ONE Church - “ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism”. **He didn’t institure thousands of rebellious denominations with differing sets of beliefs. **Why are you even in RCIA if you are not willing to accept the truths of the Church?

Jesus’ fervent prayer in John 17 was for the unity of his Church. Nowhere does that prayer even suggest that he wanted there to be thousands of bickering denominations:
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me." (John 17:20-23)

 

[mesl4]

**
But, it doesn’t** surprise me. That’s the legacy of Protestantism - One bizarre belief after another - one more new denomination . . . and another, and another . . .

THe RCC has come up with some new and bizarre beliefs as well - all in the name of infallibility and apostolic succession (Eucharistic adoration, - never hinted at by Jesus/apostles, not chewing the host, fasting 1 hr prior to mass, Papal Infallibilty, special recipe for the host and wine, etc.). At least our/Protestant beliefs don’t claim infallibilty. We just claim it’s our own interpretation. Sorry, I’m playing “devil’s advocate.” since I’m a "tweener " (between RC and Prot. right now)

 

[mesl4]

**. **]Why are you even in RCIA if you are not willing to accept the truths of the Church?

Because I’m trying to learn what the Church teaches. Oddly, I know more about what the church teaches than most of the others, yet though don’t even care to ask questions. The few Catholics that are there (sponsors) don’t even know their doctrine. How can we ascribe to a belief system when we don’t know all it claims? I’m also there because I was very lead to check it out and thought God was leading me there. But to be sure it’s not the Devil trying to confuse me and lead me out of the grace of God, I’m super-analyzing and critiquing/comparing the teachings of the Church vs. Bible vs. my background and trying to figure it all out.

Jesus’ fervent prayer in John 17 was for the unity of his Church. Nowhere does that prayer even suggest that he wanted there to be thousands of bickering denominations:

There is just as much confusion and disagreement withing the RCC as there is within Protestantism/other Christians. I don’t think God meant that we all needed to be one like robots, but one in spirit. One in mission, one in purpose, which anyone who lives in the name and spirit of Christ and a passion to follow him, is doing.

 

[panoikei]

Unfortunately, too many small Protestant churches try to look too much like the early Church - except for the Real Presence in the Eucharist is missing.

They don’t realize that the body of Christ is a living, breathing entity and as such must grow from an acorn into an oak - a mustard seed into the mustard plant, if you will.

Jesus never intended for his Church to remain a seed - but to grow as she spread out all over the earth, as he commissioned her to do so.

It’s interesting that you brought up the acorn growing into an oak tree. Did you know that it is now proven that community of trees are connected at the roots for miles on end and to infect one tree could wound the rest if not kill it. Just an interesting side note.

Now, get down and give me 20… Hard Core Catholic. Move it. move it. Beat your face. Ever been to basic training? It would make sense.

 

[panoikei]

**. **

Please continue your journey in RCIA. It is true. Most Catholics don’t know the teachings of the Catholic Church. Why? Many reasons that I don’t have time to elaborate to hijack this thread. But I have to say this one. Anti-Catholics incessantly attack Catholics and introduce doubt by erronious “truths” that never were part of the early Christian’s beliefs, or were part of the “heretics” beliefs. Catholics get it from every side and it is amazing that the Church is still 1.2 Billion strong, or weak depending on the meaning. I was one of those “sponsors” that you speak about. I told my wife today that it was amazing they allowed me to be a sponsor because I was learning along side her. But now I can hold my own, but humble enough to know not to try to think I’m an expert.

But you are most definitly wrong on believing Christ may have meant it is okay for us to be separate or divided churches or ecclesial communities. He did appoint Peter as the head of the Church. He did tell them to obey the Traditions handed to them from Moses. He did many things that only an authoritative body could have done, like giving us a canon of scripture. There are many spiritualities within the Catholic Church. Don’t beleive for a minute that just because we bicker amond ourselves that we are not part of the true Church. That is not orthodox thinking.

 

[elvisman]

It’s interesting that you brought up the acorn growing into an oak tree. Did you know that it is now proven that community of trees are connected at the roots for miles on end and to infect one tree could wound the rest if not kill it. Just an interesting side note.

Much like the Body of Christ:
1 Cor. 12:26
If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

 

[elvisman]

THe RCC has come up with some new and bizarre beliefs as well - all in the name of infallibility and apostolic succession (Eucharistic adoration, - never hinted at by Jesus/apostles, not chewing the host, fasting 1 hr prior to mass, Papal Infallibilty, special recipe for the host and wine, etc.). At least our/Protestant beliefs don’t claim infallibilty. We just claim it’s our own interpretation. Sorry, I’m playing “devil’s advocate.” since I’m a "tweener " (between RC and Prot. right now)

Every one of those teachings is legitimate - not bizarre as you say.

---

Eucharistic Adoration:
Because** we believe the Eucharist to be the body, blood soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, adoration would be necessary. If Jesus was standing in front of you, would you fall to your knees (Philip. 2:9-12) or just blow him off?**

---

The special “Recipe” for the host and wine:
The host is to be made of wheat flour and water. This was to avoid and discourage liturgical abuses. With all of the liturgical inventions being practiced by rebellious sects in the past and present, the consecrating of a “Cinnabon” is not that far –fetched. As for the wine – it’s wine, as used in the institution of the Eucharist by Jesus himself. It’s not grape juice or soda or Kool-Aid or anything else.

---

Fasting 1 hr prior to mass:
**This is out of respect for the Eucharist, which we **believe the Eucharist to be the body, blood soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 23-30). ‘Nuff said.

---

My problem with you is not that you are in RCIA – it’s because of the disrespect you show the Church while claiming to want to be part of it.

 

[elvisman]

Because I’m trying to learn what the Church teaches. Oddly, I know more about what the church teaches than most of the others, yet though don’t even care to ask questions. The few Catholics that are there (sponsors) don’t even know their doctrine. How can we ascribe to a belief system when we don’t know all it claims? I’m also there because I was very lead to check it out and thought God was leading me there. But to be sure it’s not the Devil trying to confuse me and lead me out of the grace of God, I’m super-analyzing and critiquing/comparing the teachings of the Church vs. Bible vs. my background and trying to figure it all out.

**You "don’t care to ask questions"?? Why?
**If your instructors are making mistakes, you SHOULD **question them. Sounds to me like this is the Devil trying to “lead you out of the grace of God”, as you say.

There is just as much confusion and disagreement withing the RCC as there is within Protestantism/other Christians. I don’t think God meant that we all needed to be one like robots, but one in spirit. One in mission, one in purpose, which anyone who lives in the name and spirit of Christ and a passion to follow him, is doing.

And those who rebel against the Church’s teachings cut themselves off from her.

This isn’t an option - it’s Jesus that people are rejecting.
Luke 10:16:
"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Jesus promised the Apostles that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. That’s a guarantee that no mere “denomination” has.**

 

[mesl4]

You "don’t care to ask questions

"?? Why?
**If your instructors are making mistakes, you SHOULD **question them. Sounds to me like this is the Devil trying to “lead you out of the grace of God”, as you say.

I said I was the only one who asked questions. That the others didn’t ask questions…I’ve always been like that though. Even in my Baptist Bible Studies, I’ve always been the "black sheep " with the deeper/more skeptical questions, trying to get people to think outside their boxes of what they’ve been taught, and think about what the verse actually says.

 

[mesl4]

Every one of those teachings is legitimate - not [COLORbizarre as you say.[/COLOR]

I only said “bizarre” because that’s the word you used.

---

Eucharistic Adoration:
Because** we believe the Eucharist to be the body, blood soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, adoration would be necessary**. If Jesus was standing in front of you, would you fall to your knees (Philip. 2:9-12) or just blow him off?

---

The special “Recipe” for the host and wine:
The host is to be made of wheat flour and water. This was to avoid and discourage liturgical abuses. With all of the liturgical inventions being practiced by rebellious sects in the past and present, the consecrating of a “Cinnabon” is not that far –fetched. As for the wine – it’s wine, as used in the institution of the Eucharist by Jesus himself. It’s not grape juice or soda or Kool-Aid or anything else.

---

Fasting 1 hr prior to mass:
**This is out of respect for the Eucharist, which we **believe the Eucharist to be the body, blood soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 23-30). ‘Nuff said.

---

Defenses can also be made for the “Bizarre” teachings of Protestants. At least most of them can have some biblical reference/justification. Jesus never said to treat the bread like you’d treat him. Or to only use a certain kind of bread.

My problem with you is not that you are in RCIA – it’s because of the disrespect you show the Church while claiming to want to be part of it.

When I started RCIA I was pretty sure I’d convert. The more I study though, the more uncomfortable it feels because it is so different from the way of salvation I’ve understood from the Bible. With so much “tradition” in the RCC, things have really taken a different form from what is taught in the Bible. This is when we have to be careful that the RCC leaders were not the “wolves” that came in and didn’t spare the flock. If I only talk to Catholics and read their apologetics, I can be convinced their side, but when I hear the other side, I get really swayed and confused because the Protestant side really makes sense on many things. To think about thinks more spiritually vs. so materialistically

 

[jblake]

elvisman;:

Acts is out of chronological order because you say so?

Actually, until I read that quote by the Patriarch, I didn’t know that Paul’s timeline, and that of the Gospels and Acts were discongruent.

Diligently study the Gospels, Acts, and the Pauline Epistles, and construct a timeline of events. Then link the timelines together. They adjust events so that they are congruent.

claim that St. Paul instituted the Church. It’s so ludicrous, it borders on heresy.

Which is why the Patriarch said that if it wasn’t for the Grace of God, the entire New Testament would be a lie.

jonathon

 

[elvisman]

Actually, until I read that quote by the Patriarch, I didn’t know that Paul’s timeline, and that of the Gospels and Acts were discongruent.

Diligently study the Gospels, Acts, and the Pauline Epistles, and construct a timeline of events. Then link the timelines together. They adjust events so that they are congruent.

Which is why the Patriarch said that if it wasn’t for the Grace of God, the entire New Testament would be a lie.

jonathon

IF you believe Acts - and Acts states that Paul persecuted the Early Church - this premise that he instituted the Church is a ridiculous notion.

Do you actually believe that Paul instituted the Church?

 

[laverita]

Hey nobody’s being rude or arrogant here - except both of you. I asked a question and received - not an answer - but a question.

It’s only “rude” and arrogant" because neither of you can answer it.

We can see an example of a similar dispute in Matthew 21:23 when the chief priest asked Jesus by whos authority do you do these things. Jesus answered if you answer my question I’ll answer yours. The baptism of John was it from heaven or men. They never answered Jesus and Jesus did not answer there question. Unfortunately by not answering napsacks question you have filled the roll of the chief priest. Would it not just be better to answer, unless your question was loaded, napsacks question made you uncomfortable?

 

[laverita]

Actually, until I read that quote by the Patriarch, I didn’t know that Paul’s timeline, and that of the Gospels and Acts were discongruent.

Diligently study the Gospels, Acts, and the Pauline Epistles, and construct a timeline of events. Then link the timelines together. They adjust events so that they are congruent.

Which is why the Patriarch said that if it wasn’t for the Grace of God, the entire New Testament would be a lie.

jonathon

Im not following your reference the Patriarch can you clarify it for me. If its Peter or someone else the verse and chapter please.

 

[elvisman]

We can see an example of a similar dispute in Matthew 21:23 when the chief priest asked Jesus by whos authority do you do these things. Jesus answered if you answer my question I’ll answer yours. The baptism of John was it from heaven or men. They never answered Jesus and Jesus did not answer there question. Unfortunately by not answering napsacks question you have filled the roll of the chief priest. Would it not just be better to answer, unless your question was loaded, napsacks question made you uncomfortable?

My question wasn’t loaded - and neither napsack nor anybody else on this forum is Jesus.
I have filled only the roll of Elvisman.

Since 2 other Protestants have refused to answer it - can you?

 

[mesl4]

**

Since 2 other Protestants have refused to answer it - can you?**
This protestant doesn’t know what the question was, or that it was just for Protestants. If I didn’t answer, it’s probably because I didn’t know the answer.

 

[panoikei]

Much like the Body of Christ:
1 Cor. 12:26
If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

exactly my point. Peace.

 

[panoikei]

This protestant doesn’t know what the question was, or that it was just for Protestants. If I didn’t answer, it’s probably because I didn’t know the answer.

More information for you in RCIA. It is possible to fall into the hands of an RCIA instructor that isn’t representing the teachings of the Church well. You also have to remember that ther have been many Protestants that spend there days tying to debunk the Church’s teachings. They come up with “good sounding” arguments, but when you put them to the test they just don’t stand water. Example: solo scriptura. I would have to write you a book on the problems associated with that belief. I used to be solo scriptura and figured out things the hard way.

Jesus said himself that he did not come to change the law but to fulfill the law. Theology does not exist to prove something is true but rather to show that it is valid to believe…something like that. I struggled with many things that you are probably struggling with today. You’ve made up your mind already. It is true that Catholicism and Orhtodoxy are far different than what you have learned in you Christian faith. But think about what led you to look into Catholicism. Give it the long haul chance. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. But take the time to try to understand. Also, ask the hard questions and insist politely they be answered. But be patient because you really need to hear it all before you even begin to understand. We would love to have you in the Church but if you can’t get past dogma/Catholic Teaching, then by all means do be on your way. We already have enough cafateria/confused/stubborn Catholics. We don’t want to recruit people who don’t believe or accept. We are a suffering people in need of salvation.

At least learn what you can and attempt to be charitable. If worse comes to worst go learn Orhtodoxy. Orhtodoxy is more inclined to leave things unexplained because they seem to love keeping it a a mystery. Historically, there could only be 2 choices in the early Church, Catholicism or Orhtodoxy who claim to be the Catholic Church. Remember the duck analogy. Only we carry the name and on occassion we say orthodox Catholic to show we too believe in right belief. Learn this and then look for which to belong to. History will be unfolded only if you studying it. I think that you are already prejudiced like an Aggie is prejudiced against the Longhorns. Everyone knows that UT rules, but ask an Aggie and you’ll only here that Aggies are number 1 even though the fall after UT statistically. But the Aggies have a better “mafia” in that they stick together no matter what. But that still doesn’t make the Aggies better than UT because statistically the Longhorns have a better school over all with better departments over all. One of the top MBA and Engineering departments in the US. Even the best medical schools in the system.

And I didn’t even go to either. I have Aggies in the family and Tigers/ LSU. But how many UT grads, I have no idea. The point is that how to perceive something depends on which side or direction you are looking at it. It’s like the story/analogy of the elephant and the blind men trying to figure out what it is.

I hope my lame explanation makes sense.

 

[elvisman]

I only said “bizarre” because that’s the word you used.

Defenses can also be made for the “Bizarre” teachings of Protestants. At least most of them can have some biblical reference/justification. Jesus never said to treat the bread like you’d treat him. Or to only use a certain kind of bread.

I already explained that in my last post.

When I started RCIA I was pretty sure I’d convert. The more I study though, the more uncomfortable it feels because it is so different from the way of salvation I’ve understood from the Bible. With so much “tradition” in the RCC, things have really taken a different form from what is taught in the Bible. This is when we have to be careful that the RCC leaders were not the “wolves” that came in and didn’t spare the flock. If I only talk to Catholics and read their apologetics, I can be convinced their side, but when I hear the other side, I get really swayed and confused because the Protestant side really makes sense on many things. To think about thinks more spiritually vs. so materialistically

That’s interesting. My story is the exact opposite.
I’m a cradle Catholic who was exposed to Protestantism at an early age when my older siblings started leaving the Church.

They “worked on me” for several years. I finally grew tired of not having answers to their seemingly strong objections about Church doctrines. What I found out astonished me.
Not only were they wrong about every objection - some of them were so transparently silly, common sense alone would tell you that they were.

As that famous 19th Century convert Cardinal John Henry Newman once said, "To be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant."

 

[jblake]

elvisman;:

Do you actually believe that Paul instituted the Church?

have you constructed a New Testament Timeline yet?
Have you reconciled the timeline in the Gospels, and the timeline in Acts, with the timeline of the Pauline Epistles?

jonathon