Protestants: If it's not mentioned in Scripture, is your fall-back position that it's prohibited, or permissible? And how do you know?

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According to the Protestant theory of adiaphorism:
a tolerance of conduct or beliefs not specifically forbidden in the Scriptures.

that which is not specifically prohibited in Scripture is permissible.

However, it seems that there are also some Protestant denominations who proclaim that if it’s not mentioned in Scripture (i.e. music in worship services), then it is forbidden.

Thus, it would seem that the prohibition/permission of is based, then, not on Scripture but on the opinion/man-made tradition of each individual church/denomination/pastor.

Thoughts?
 
Additionally, there are some Protestants who argue that:
-if it’s not mentioned in Scripture, then it didn’t happen (to wit: the Bible no where mentions that Peter was in Rome, therefore, Peter never was in Rome).

Yet, the Bible also never mentions that artificial contraception is forbidden; thus it is allowed.

How do Protestants reconcile this?
 
The vast majority of Protestants do not understand Scripture in any way that resembles what you are describing.
 
I would say they do, especially in the US.
THe kind of understanding is not found in the mainline churches, which compose the majority of Protestants. And although fundamentalists are common in some parts of the US, that is a very regional thing. Where I live, there are a ton of Buddhists, but I wouldn’t be correct to say that means Canada is full of Buddhists. And outside the US the Christian religious scene is much different.

OP: the majority of Protestants understand Scripture in a way fairly similar to the Catholic Church. We look at Scripture as a whole, we look at the intent of the text, we look at the Tradition of the Church and the writings of the Fathers and the decisions of the councils, and we look at what makes sense rationally, and modern Biblical scholars and theologians as well.

Most have a way of doing this as a group within their own tradition - decisions are not made by individuals, but by the church. Anglicans tend to look through the liturgy and tradition, while Lutherans use their Confession as the guide.

The difference is that Protestants generally use the Scriptures as the highest level of appeal, or as the norm, when there is a tough call. This makes sense if you consider that at the time of the Reformation, the Reformers felt that the Catholic Church was defending incorrect teachings by appealing to Tradition. So while they still allowed for a tradition of how to understand Scripture and the teaching of the Church more generally, they decided that all claims to Tradition had to be in harmony with Scripture.
 
According to the Protestant theory of adiaphorism:
a tolerance of conduct or beliefs not specifically forbidden in the Scriptures.

that which is not specifically prohibited in Scripture is permissible.

However, it seems that there are also some Protestant denominations who proclaim that if it’s not mentioned in Scripture (i.e. music in worship services), then it is forbidden.

Thus, it would seem that the prohibition/permission of is based, then, not on Scripture but on the opinion/man-made tradition of each individual church/denomination/pastor.

Thoughts?
Thanks for the invite. 🙂
The first thing, PR, is that you’re grouping communions based on “protestant”, which is not a monolith.

Bluegoat explains it well, though.

Jon
 
According to the Protestant theory of adiaphorism:
a tolerance of conduct or beliefs not specifically forbidden in the Scriptures.

that which is not specifically prohibited in Scripture is permissible.

However, it seems that there are also some Protestant denominations who proclaim that if it’s not mentioned in Scripture (i.e. music in worship services), then it is forbidden.

Thus, it would seem that the prohibition/permission of is based, then, not on Scripture but on the opinion/man-made tradition of each individual church/denomination/pastor.

Thoughts?
They dont realize that the scripture were not made directly available for the NT
for the earliest Christians . They had tradition to go by . Those same traditions are the ones Paul speaks of . He says we should shun any brother who is not in accordance to the traditions set. (2Thess) The church was given authority in Matt 16 and 18 "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose non earth will be loosed in heaven. " Protestants have tradition .A church leader reads the bible then he interprets the passage for the rest .
 
THe kind of understanding is not found in the mainline churches, which compose the majority of Protestants. And although fundamentalists are common in some parts of the US, that is a very regional thing. Where I live, there are a ton of Buddhists, but I wouldn’t be correct to say that means Canada is full of Buddhists. And outside the US the Christian religious scene is much different.

OP: the majority of Protestants understand Scripture in a way fairly similar to the Catholic Church. We look at Scripture as a whole, we look at the intent of the text, we look at the Tradition of the Church and the writings of the Fathers and the decisions of the councils, and we look at what makes sense rationally, and modern Biblical scholars and theologians as well.

Most have a way of doing this as a group within their own tradition - decisions are not made by individuals, but by the church. Anglicans tend to look through the liturgy and tradition, while Lutherans use their Confession as the guide.

The difference is that Protestants generally use the Scriptures as the highest level of appeal, or as the norm, when there is a tough call. This makes sense if you consider that at the time of the Reformation, the Reformers felt that the Catholic Church was defending incorrect teachings by appealing to Tradition. So while they still allowed for a tradition of how to understand Scripture and the teaching of the Church more generally, they decided that all claims to Tradition had to be in harmony with Scripture.
the baptist dont do that, i never even considered tradition or early Church fathers when i was baptist i just read the Bible and what it said what it said and thats what it meant
 
Thanks for the invite. 🙂
The first thing, PR, is that you’re grouping communions based on “protestant”, which is not a monolith.

Bluegoat explains it well, though.

Jon
Yes. I try not to group Protestants into a uniform entity. In fact I have stated many times here that it’s almost impossible to try to characterize Protestants into any uniform belief or doctrine.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7254040&postcount=358
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5988516&postcount=319

Regardless, the fact remains that there are some Protestants who profess this adiaphora.

And some Protestants who proclaim its corollary–that which is not mentioned in Scripture is forbidden.

And, then, there are some (perhaps most?) who use it willy-nilly and permit/forbid that which is not mentioned in Scripture depending upon the particular practice or doctrine.
 
OP: the majority of Protestants understand Scripture in a way** fairly similar to the Catholic Church**. We look at Scripture as a whole, we look at the intent of the text, we look at the Tradition of the Church and the writings of the Fathers and the decisions of the councils, and we look at what makes sense rationally, and modern Biblical scholars and theologians as well.
So, are you saying that the majority of “mainline” Protestants reject this adiaphorism theory? (A Christian Protestant theological theory that certain rites and actions are matters of indifference in religion since not forbidden by the Scriptures.)

Would you agree with that, Jon? Do most mainline Protestants reject adiaphorism?

For this is what Catholicism professes.

Indifferentism–This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.
 
The vast majority of Protestants do not understand Scripture in any way that resembles what you are describing.
In Canada no they don’t, but in the US the mainline Protestant denominations are dying or taking the route of Episcopal Church. Here Baptists are the kings of the Protestant faith in America a long with the Church of Christ (forbids singing), and some others.
 
According to the Protestant theory of adiaphorism:
a tolerance of conduct or beliefs not specifically forbidden in the Scriptures.

that which is not specifically prohibited in Scripture is permissible.

However, it seems that there are also some Protestant denominations who proclaim that if it’s not mentioned in Scripture (i.e. music in worship services), then it is forbidden.

Thus, it would seem that the prohibition/permission of is based, then, not on Scripture but on the opinion/man-made tradition of each individual church/denomination/pastor.

Thoughts?
Actually that is a Lutheran term:
X. The Ecclesiastical Rites That Are Called Adiaphora or Things Indifferent
1 There has also been a controversy among some theologians of the Augsburg Confession concerning ceremonies and church rites which are neither commanded nor forbidden in the Word of God but which have been introduced into the church with good intentions for the sake of good order and decorum7 or else to preserve Christian discipline. 2 The one party8 held that even in a period of persecution and a case of confession,9 when enemies of the holy Gospel have not come to an agreement with us in doctrine, one may still with a clear conscience, at the enemies’ insistent demand, restore once more certain abrogated ceremonies that are in themselves matters of indifference and that are neither commanded nor forbidden by God, and that one may justifiably conform oneself to them in such adiaphora or matters of indifference. 3 The other party,1 however, contended that under no circumstances can this be done with a clear conscience and without prejudice to the divine truth, even as far as things indifferent are concerned, in a period of persecution and a case of confession, especially when the adversaries are attempting either by force and coercion or by surreptitious methods to suppress the pure doctrine and gradually to insinuate their false doctrines into our churches again. 4 To explain this controversy and to settle it definitively by the grace of God, we offer the Christian reader the following exposition:
5 We should not consider as matters of indifference, and we should avoid as forbidden by God, ceremonies which are basically contrary to the Word of God, even though they go under the name and guise of external adiaphora and are given a different color from their true one. Nor do we include among truly free adiaphora or things indifferent those ceremonies which give or (to avoid persecution) are designed to give the impression that our religion does not differ greatly from that of the papists, or that we are not seriously opposed to it. Nor are such rites matters of indifference when these ceremonies are intended to create the illusion (or are demanded or agreed to with that intention) that these two opposing religions have been brought into agreement and become one body, or that a return to the papacy and an apostasy from the pure doctrine (tr-1055) of the Gospel and from true religion has taken place or will allegedly result little by little from these ceremonies.
6 In this case the words of Paul must be heeded: “Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Therefore come out from them and be separate from them, says the Lord” (2 Cor. 6:14, 17).
7 Neither are useless and foolish spectacles, which serve neither good order, Christian discipline, nor evangelical decorum in the church, true adiaphora or things indifferent.
8 We believe, teach, and confess that true adiaphora or things indifferent, as defined above, are in and of themselves no worship of God or even a part of it,2 but that we should duly distinguish between the two, as it is written, “In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the precepts of men” (Matt. 15:9).
9 We further believe, teach, and confess that the community of God in every place and at every time has the right, authority, and power to change, to reduce, or to increase ceremonies according to its circumstances, as long as it does so without frivolity and offense but in an orderly and appropriate way, as at any time may seem to be most profitable, beneficial, and salutary for good order, Christian discipline, evangelical decorum, and the edification of the church. Paul instructs us how we can with a good conscience give in and yield to the weak in faith in such external matters of indifference (Rom. 14) and demonstrates it by his own example (Acts 16:3; 21:26; 1 Cor. 9:10).
 
According to the Protestant theory of adiaphorism:
a tolerance of conduct or beliefs not specifically forbidden in the Scriptures.

that which is not specifically prohibited in Scripture is permissible.

However, it seems that there are also some Protestant denominations who proclaim that if it’s not mentioned in Scripture (i.e. music in worship services), then it is forbidden.

Thus, it would seem that the prohibition/permission of is based, then, not on Scripture but on the opinion/man-made tradition of each individual church/denomination/pastor.

Thoughts?
Actually that is a Lutheran term continued"

10 We believe, teach, and confess that at a time of confession, as when enemies of the Word of God desire to suppress the pure doctrine of the holy Gospel, the entire community of God, yes, every individual Christian, and especially the ministers of the Word as the leaders3 of the community of God, are obligated to confess openly, not only by words but also through their deeds and actions, the true doctrine and all that pertains to it, according to the Word of God. In such a case we should not yield to adversaries even in matters of indifference, nor should we tolerate the imposition of such ceremonies on us by adversaries in order to undermine the genuine worship of God and to introduce and confirm their idolatry by force or chicanery. 11 It is written, “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal. 5:1). And again, “But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, (tr-1057) that they might bring us into bondage: to whom we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you” (Gal. 2:4, 5). 12 Paul is here speaking of circumcision, which at that time was a matter of indifference4 and which in his Christian liberty he employed in other instances (Acts 16:3). But when false prophets demanded circumcision and abused it to confirm their false doctrine that the works of the law are necessary for righteousness and salvation, Paul said that he would not yield, not even for a moment, so that the truth of the Gospel might be preserved.5 13 Thus Paul yielded and gave in to the weak as far as foods, times, and days were concerned (Rom 14:6). But he would not yield to false apostles who wanted to impose such things on consciences as necessary, even in matters that were in themselves indifferent. “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath” (Col. 2:16). When Peter and Barnabas in a similar situation yielded to a certain extent, Paul criticized them publicly because they had not been straightforward about the truth of the Gospel (Gal. 2:14).
14 For here we are no longer dealing with the external adiaphora which in their nature and essence are and remain of themselves free and which accordingly are not subject either to a command or a prohibition, requiring us to use them or to discontinue them. Here we are dealing primarily with the chief article of our Christian faith, so that, as the apostle testifies, the truth of the Gospel might be preserved (Gal. 2:5). Any coercion or commandment darkens and perverts this article because the adversaries will forthwith publicly demand such matters of indifference to confirm false doctrines, superstition, and idolatry and to suppress the pure doctrine and Christian liberty, or they will misuse them and misinterpret them in this direction.
15 At the same time this concerns the article of Christian liberty as well, an article which the Holy Spirit through the mouth of the holy apostle so seriously commanded the church to preserve, as we have just heard. As soon as this article is weakened and human commandments are forcibly imposed on the church as necessary and as though their omission were wrong and sinful, the door has been opened to idolatry, and ultimately the commandments of men will be increased and be put as divine worship not only on a par with God’s commandments, but even above them.
16 Hence yielding or conforming in external things, where Christian agreement in doctrine has not previously been achieved, will support the idolaters in their idolatry, and on the other hand, it will sadden and scandalize true believers and weaken them in their faith. As he values his soul’s welfare and salvation, every Christian is obligated to avoid both, as it is written, “Woe to the world for temptations to sin,”6 and again, “Whoever causes (tr-1059) one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it were better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”7 17 We are to be particularly mindful that Christ says, “So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10:32).
18 The following testimonies drawn from the Smalcald Articles, which were drafted and adopted in 1537, show that this has consistently been the conviction and the confession of the chief teachers of the Augsburg Confession concerning such matters of indifference, and we who are walking in their footsteps intend by the grace of God to abide by this their confession.
 
I would like to contribute a quick answer to the OP.

This thread brings back some of my darkest memories about evangelical Protestantism and actually makes me shudder. Authority issues were the reason that my husband and I were kicked out of our evangelical church. So I am following this thread with much interest.

I was evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism. We believed in a “chain of authority.”

Parents were on top, so they would be our “ultimate authority,” as long as they did not ask us to do (or not do) something opposed to the teachings of the Bible.

Then came the husband–yes, I always found this strange that husband was after parents. It sets up some conflicts in marriages. Same stipulation–a husband could not ask a wife to do (or not do) something opposed to Scripture.

After husband came pastor (s) of your local church. Same stipulation.

Then teachers in the local church. Same stipulation.

And then various other authority figures outside of the Church, like the government, your boss or supervisor, your local police, etc.

I believe this “chain of authority” model came from Bill Gothard’s Basic Youth Conflicts seminars, and NOT ALL Evangelical Protestants accept this teaching.

I soured on it way back in college, when one of my friends volunteered for a short-term mission trip, and one of the old ladies in our church who was a Gothardite came to her privately and told her not to go, as her parents did not approve. The old lady told my friend that if anything happened to her overseas, that her parents would probably completely reject God, and then it would be my friend’s fault that her parents were in hell.

Her parents were non-Christians with no interest in the things of God, and it made no sense to me or my friend that they would have the authority to tell her not to serve God (she was of age, BTW).

The pastor of our church stepped in and sternly told the old lady to back off, that the Gothardite teaching was NOT Scriptural, and told my friend to go ahead and serve her mission term.

Ah, memories! The many conflicts in the evangelical churches! Shudder. Just imagine telling a young woman that it is her fault that her parents are going to hell! Who, really, is in danger of hell here?

You will find that many evangelicals still hold to some form of the Gothardite teaching about a “chain of authority,” in which parents, husband, and then the Church are the authorities. If you look at evangelical Protestant “fads” and “bandwagons” over the years and recently, I believe you will see evidence of the Gothardite teachings; e.g., the fad about courtship marriage, where the parents have the say-so over when and who their child dates, even after the child is over age 18. This fad has crept into Catholic culture, too, and I think Catholics should take a closer look at where it came from and who started it and whether or not it is really a “Catholic” teaching.

I hope this information is useful.
 
So, are you saying that the majority of “mainline” Protestants reject this adiaphorism theory? (A Christian Protestant theological theory that certain rites and actions are matters of indifference in religion since not forbidden by the Scriptures.)

Would you agree with that, Jon? Do most mainline Protestants reject adiaphorism?

For this is what Catholicism professes.

Indifferentism–This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.
Most Protestants in the mainline churches would agree that there are things over which Christians can legitimately differ, and that these things are adiaphora. Catholics of course also believe this - different people can choose to do different devotions for example, or may believe in particular visions or revelations, while another does not. Most main-line Protestants would not say that anything not specifically mentioned is wrong or not allowed. So, as an example, most would disagree that Christmas holidays are wrong because they are not mentioned in Scripture, or that playing organs in church is wrong because it is not mentioned in Scripture. They would say a church or parish may choose to play the organ, or not, as long as it is appropriate to the larger purpose of being there.

The main thing is that the individual doesn’t get to decide what is adiaphora, and what isn’t, it is the community and whatever structures they have to make decisions.
 
In Canada no they don’t, but in the US the mainline Protestant denominations are dying or taking the route of Episcopal Church. Here Baptists are the kings of the Protestant faith in America a long with the Church of Christ (forbids singing), and some others.
It depends on where you are even in the US. But I wasn’t aware that what happens in the US is all that counts in any case.
 
I would like to contribute a quick answer to the OP.

This thread brings back some of my darkest memories about evangelical Protestantism and actually makes me shudder. Authority issues were the reason that my husband and I were kicked out of our evangelical church. So I am following this thread with much interest.

I was evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism. We believed in a “chain of authority.”

Parents were on top, so they would be our “ultimate authority,” as long as they did not ask us to do (or not do) something opposed to the teachings of the Bible.

Then came the husband–yes, I always found this strange that husband was after parents. It sets up some conflicts in marriages. Same stipulation–a husband could not ask a wife to do (or not do) something opposed to Scripture.

After husband came pastor (s) of your local church. Same stipulation.

Then teachers in the local church. Same stipulation.

And then various other authority figures outside of the Church, like the government, your boss or supervisor, your local police, etc.

I believe this “chain of authority” model came from Bill Gothard’s Basic Youth Conflicts seminars, and NOT ALL Evangelical Protestants accept this teaching.

I soured on it way back in college, when one of my friends volunteered for a short-term mission trip, and one of the old ladies in our church who was a Gothardite came to her privately and told her not to go, as her parents did not approve. The old lady told my friend that if anything happened to her overseas, that her parents would probably completely reject God, and then it would be my friend’s fault that her parents were in hell.

Her parents were non-Christians with no interest in the things of God, and it made no sense to me or my friend that they would have the authority to tell her not to serve God (she was of age, BTW).

The pastor of our church stepped in and sternly told the old lady to back off, that the Gothardite teaching was NOT Scriptural, and told my friend to go ahead and serve her mission term.

Ah, memories! The many conflicts in the evangelical churches! Shudder. Just imagine telling a young woman that it is her fault that her parents are going to hell! Who, really, is in danger of hell here?

You will find that many evangelicals still hold to some form of the Gothardite teaching about a “chain of authority,” in which parents, husband, and then the Church are the authorities. If you look at evangelical Protestant “fads” and “bandwagons” over the years and recently, I believe you will see evidence of the Gothardite teachings; e.g., the fad about courtship marriage, where the parents have the say-so over when and who their child dates, even after the child is over age 18. This fad has crept into Catholic culture, too, and I think Catholics should take a closer look at where it came from and who started it and whether or not it is really a “Catholic” teaching.

I hope this information is useful.
Indeed, it was! Thanks for sharing your experience.

So would you say that in your evangelical church the default position was it’s allowed if not mentioned in Scripture, or that it’s forbidden?
 
The main thing is that the individual doesn’t get to decide what is adiaphora, and what isn’t, it is the community and whatever structures they have to make decisions.
Yes, I think you are right.

Except that in the thousands and thousands of non-denominational churches (one on every corner in my large metropolitan area!), it does seem that the individual (read: pastor) does get to decide what’s adiaphora and what isn’t.
 
Adiaphorism has the fancy appearence of a word resembling nothing more than theological laziness IMHO.

On one side there appears to be the “purist” looking to be spoon-fed verbatim.

On the other, the liberal who is inclined to abuse the lack of constraint and add just about everything else not in scripture to the point of burying the truth in well intentioned piety.

Either way, I fear a lack of willingness exists in proponents of adiaphorism to learn the faith as God intended, choosing their own means instead.

Piety, within the confines of Church teaching, seems to me a middle ground to the extremes of adiaphorism and subsequently, requires more effort to enrich faith rather than twist it to man’s own ends.

A noted Protestant by the name S. Werenfels once said, “Men ope this book, their favourite creed in mind; Each seeks his own, and each his own doth find.” …or doesn’t find, in which case that’s good, too? 🤷 Sounds like a dangerous proposition to me.
 
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