Protestants, if Mary had children, after Christ, is there a traceable lineage to Mary?

[Anna_Scott]

Protestants, if Mary had children, after Christ, is there a traceable lineage to Mary?

I understand that Catholics believe in the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, and assumption of Mary.

As a Protestant, I was taught that Mary gave birth to Christ, as a Virgin Mother; but later had children and died as any other human being.

As I consider the differences in beliefs about Mary; I would expect a traceable lineage to Mary, if she did, in fact, have other children.

So, can anyone tell me if such a lineage exists?

No “Da Vinci Code” cracks, please.

Anna

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

No lineage, no other children…that’s it…period.

 

[Publisher]

Protestants, if Mary had children, after Christ, is there a traceable lineage to Mary?

I understand that Catholics believe in the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, and assumption of Mary.

As a Protestant, I was taught that Mary gave birth to Christ, as a Virgin Mother; but later had children and died as any other human being.

As I consider the differences in beliefs about Mary; I would expect a traceable lineage to Mary, if she did, in fact, have other children.

So, can anyone tell me if such a lineage exists?

No “Da Vinci Code” cracks, please.

Anna

Anna,

From my perspective…any “lineage” that could be produced…would be about as accurate as a “Da Vinci Code” lineage to begin with. Why would there be a traceable lineage in the first place? Is there a traceable lineage for Joseph? What about the so called “cousins” of Jesus, Simon, Jude, James etc? Can they be traced through any lineage?

I’m trying to understand the “why” and “wherefore” any such lineage would “prove”.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

From my perspective…any “lineage” that could be produced…would be about as accurate as a “Da Vinci Code” lineage to begin with. Why would there be a traceable lineage in the first place? Is there a traceable lineage for Joseph? What about the so called “cousins” of Jesus, Simon, Jude, James etc? Can they be traced through any lineage?

I’m trying to understand the “why” and “wherefore” any such lineage would “prove”.

As a Protestant questioning Protestantism; I think it is valid to ask for a traceable lineage of Mary, the Virgin Mother of Christ. You would think someone would have kept track of Mary’s descendants; unless she is a perpetual virgin and the assumption really did take place as the Catholics claim.

Anna

 

[kristanl]

As a Protestant questioning Protestantism; I think it is valid to ask for a traceable lineage of Mary, the Virgin Mother of Christ. You would think someone would have kept track of Mary’s descendants; unless she is a perpetual virgin and the assumption really did take place as the Catholics claim.

Anna

No one has any burial records of her either. You would think if she did have other children they would have been able to say where she died, and it was written somewhere.

 

[BrianH]

There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother. These were informed against, as belonging to the family of David, and Evocatus brought them before Domitian Caesar: for that emperor dreaded the advent of Christ, as Herod had done. So he asked them whether they were of the family of David; and they confessed they were. Next he asked them what property they had, or how much money they possessed. They both replied that they had only 9000 denaria between them, each of them owning half that sum; but even this they said they did not possess in cash, but as the estimated value of some land, consisting of thirty-nine plethra only, out of which they had to pay the dues, and that they supported themselves by their own labour. And then they began to hold out their hands, exhibiting, as proof of their manual labour, the roughness of their skin, and the corns raised on their hands by constant work. Being then asked concerning Christ and His kingdom, what was its nature, and when and where it was to appear, they returned answer that it was not of this world, nor of the earth, but belonging to the sphere of heaven and angels, and would make its appearance at the end of time, when He shall come in glory, and judge living and dead, and render to every one according to the course of his life. Thereupon Domitian passed no condemnation upon them, but treated them with contempt, as too mean for notice, and let them go free. At the same time he issued a command, and put a stop to the persecution against the Church. When they were released they became leaders of the churches, as was natural in the case of those who were at once martyrs and of the kindred of the Lord. And, after the establishment of peace to the Church, their lives were prolonged to the reign of Trajan. Eusebius of Caesarea, Historia Ecclesiae, 3:20

For the relatives of our Lord according to the flesh, whether with the desire of boasting or simply wishing to state the fact, in either case truly, have handed down the following account… But as there had been kept in the archives up to that time the genealogies of the Hebrews as well as of those who traced their lineage back to proselytes, such as Achior the Ammonite and Ruth the Moabitess, and to those who were mingled with the Israelites and came out of Egypt with them, Herod, inasmuch as the lineage of the Israelites contributed nothing to his advantage, and since he was goaded with the consciousness of his own ignoble extraction, burned all the genealogical records, thinking that he might appear of noble origin if no one else were able, from the public registers, to trace back his lineage to the patriarchs or proselytes and to those mingled with them, who were called Georae. A few of the careful, however, having obtained private records of their own, either by remembering the names or by getting them in some other way from the registers, pride themselves on preserving the memory of their noble extraction. Among these are those already mentioned, called Desposyni, on account of their connection with the family of the Saviour. Coming from Nazara and Cochaba, villages of Judea, into other parts of the world, they drew the aforesaid genealogy from memory and from the book of daily records as faithfully as possible. Whether then the case stand thus or not no one could find a clearer explanation, according to my own opinion and that of every candid person. And let this suffice us, for, although we can urge no testimony in its support, we have nothing better or truer to offer. In any case the Gospel states the truth." And at the end of the same epistle he adds these words: “Matthan, who was descended from Solomon, begat Jacob. And when Matthan was dead, Melchi, who was descended from Nathan begat Eli by the same woman. Eli and Jacob were thus uterine brothers. Eli having died childless, Jacob raised up seed to him, begetting Joseph, his own son by nature, but by law the son of Eli. Thus Joseph was the son of both.” Eusebius of Caesarea, Historia Ecclesiae, 1:7:11, 1:7:13-14

 

[BrianH]

No one has any burial records of her either. You would think if she did have other children they would have been able to say where she died, and it was written somewhere.

Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis in Paranion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis

11,3 11,5 I cannot decide for certain, and am not saying that she remained immortal. But neither am I affirming that she died. For scripture went beyond man’s understanding and left it in suspense with regard to the precious and chosen vessel, so that no one would suspect carnal behavior of her. Whether she died, I don’t know; and even if she was buried, she never had carnal relations, perish the thought.

78: 23,8 The holy virgin may have died and been buried-her falling asleep was with honor, her death in purity, her crown in virginity. Or she may have been put to death-as the scripture says, “and a sword shall pierce through her soul-her frame is among the martyrs and her holy body, by which light rose on the world, rests amid blessings. Or she may have remained alive, for God is not incapable of doing whatever he wills. No one knows her end.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

No lineage, no other children…that’s it…period.

^ Answer to your question, OP ^

 

[Anna_Scott]

Quote:
There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother. These were informed against, as belonging to the family of David, and Evocatus brought them before Domitian Caesar: for that emperor dreaded the advent of Christ, as Herod had done. So he asked them whether they were of the family of David; and they confessed they were. Next he asked them what property they had, or how much money they possessed.

They both replied that they had only 9000 denaria between them, each of them owning half that sum; but even this they said they did not possess in cash, but as the estimated value of some land, consisting of thirty-nine plethra only, out of which they had to pay the dues, and that they supported themselves by their own labour. And then they began to hold out their hands, exhibiting, as proof of their manual labour, the roughness of their skin, and the corns raised on their hands by constant work.

Being then asked concerning Christ and His kingdom, what was its nature, and when and where it was to appear, they returned answer that it was not of this world, nor of the earth, but belonging to the sphere of heaven and angels, and would make its appearance at the end of time, when He shall come in glory, and judge living and dead, and render to every one according to the course of his life.

Thereupon Domitian passed no condemnation upon them, but treated them with contempt, as too mean for notice, and let them go free. At the same time he issued a command, and put a stop to the persecution against the Church. When they were released they became leaders of the churches, as was natural in the case of those who were at once martyrs and of the kindred of the Lord. And, after the establishment of peace to the Church, their lives were prolonged to the reign of Trajan. Eusebius of Caesarea, Historia Ecclesiae, 3:20

Quote:
For the relatives of our Lord according to the flesh, whether with the desire of boasting or simply wishing to state the fact, in either case truly, have handed down the following account…

But as there had been kept in the archives up to that time the genealogies of the Hebrews as well as of those who traced their lineage back to proselytes, such as Achior the Ammonite and Ruth the Moabitess, and to those who were mingled with the Israelites and came out of Egypt with them, Herod, inasmuch as the lineage of the Israelites contributed nothing to his advantage, and since he was goaded with the consciousness of his own ignoble extraction, burned all the genealogical records, thinking that he might appear of noble origin if no one else were able, from the public registers, to trace back his lineage to the patriarchs or proselytes and to those mingled with them, who were called Georae.

A few of the careful, however, having obtained private records of their own, either by remembering the names or by getting them in some other way from the registers, pride themselves on preserving the memory of their noble extraction. Among these are those already mentioned, called Desposyni, on account of their connection with the family of the Saviour. Coming from Nazara and Cochaba, villages of Judea, into other parts of the world, they drew the aforesaid genealogy from memory and from the book of daily records as faithfully as possible.

Whether then the case stand thus or not no one could find a clearer explanation, according to my own opinion and that of every candid person. And let this suffice us, for, although we can urge no testimony in its support, we have nothing better or truer to offer. In any case the Gospel states the truth."

And at the end of the same epistle he adds these words: “Matthan, who was descended from Solomon, begat Jacob. And when Matthan was dead, Melchi, who was descended from Nathan begat Eli by the same woman. Eli and Jacob were thus uterine brothers. Eli having died childless, Jacob raised up seed to him, begetting Joseph, his own son by nature, but by law the son of Eli. Thus Joseph was the son of both.” Eusebius of Caesarea, Historia Ecclesiae, 1:7:11, 1:7:13-14

Thank you for providing these quotes. I am really quite stunned.
So, this would be the very same Eusebius, who is part of the Catholic Apostolic Succession?

For Catholic Forum Members; If Mary did not have any children, after Christ; how could there be “relatives of our Lord according to the flesh,” as Eusebius describes?

Anna

 

[BrianH]

Christian historian. Can I make a suggestion? Just read his short version of his book. None of these quotes disprove a perpetual virginity as an skilled apologist can provide pros and cons. Just read for yourself and see what you think.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Thank you for providing these quotes. I am really quite stunned.
So, this would be the very same Eusebius, who is part of the Catholic Apostolic Succession?

For Catholic Forum Members; If Mary did not have any children, after Christ; how could there be “relatives of our Lord according to the flesh,” as Eusebius describes?

Anna

Nowhere in those texts does it indicate that they were Jesus’ biological brothers. These “relatives according to the flesh” are cousins, since certainly, Mary had siblings and cousins who had children.They would share blood with Jesus, but not share Mary’s womb.

Love is Patient

 

[BrianH]

Nowhere in those texts does it indicate that they were Jesus’ biological brothers. These “relatives according to the flesh” are cousins, since certainly, Mary had siblings and cousins who had children.They would share blood with Jesus, but not share Mary’s womb.

Love is Patient

Brothers according to the flesh…means cousins?
How come the word cousin appears in Eusebius when appropriate?
We are discussing Greek so arguments about Aramaic are not applicable in this case like they MIGHT be 100 years earlier.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

As a Protestant questioning Protestantism; I think it is valid to ask for a traceable lineage of Mary, the Virgin Mother of Christ. You would think someone would have kept track of Mary’s descendants; unless she is a perpetual virgin and the assumption really did take place as the Catholics claim.

Anna

That assumes that of that period match ours. Which there is no reason to suppose. We can’t retroject our interests and obsessions & fooleries onto the past ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Thank you for providing these quotes. I am really quite stunned.
So, this would be the very same Eusebius, who is part of the Catholic Apostolic Succession?

For Catholic Forum Members; If Mary did not have any children, after Christ; how could there be “relatives of our Lord according to the flesh,” as Eusebius describes?

Anna

Collaterally, through relatives of St. Joseph - or through an earlier marriage of St. Joseph. Adoption, in that place and time, would could as sonship every bit as fully as direct bodily generation. So Joseph did not need to be Jesus’ father by begetting Him.​

 

[BrianH]

Collaterally, through relatives of St. Joseph - or through an earlier marriage of St. Joseph. Adoption, in that place and time, would could as sonship every bit as fully as direct bodily generation. So Joseph did not need to be Jesus’ father by begetting Him.​

Absolutely. That is why I suggested she read the history for herself. There are a myraid of possibilities and choices to be made. She needs to be informed about what history records. Based upon that, she will have to examine her presuppositions about what that means. Its not an easy process for many people. I only wanted to correct the view that no one was interested in the family of Jesus. They were. Now, from that information decisions have to be made. Arguments applied to the NT and the Aramaic origins of the oral traditions may or may not be applicable; if indeed they ever were truly applicable in the first place! In the end, she will make, hopefully, an informed prayerful decision and I wish her the best

 

[Anna_Scott]

Christian historian. Can I make a suggestion? Just read his short version of his book. None of these quotes disprove a perpetual virginity as an skilled apologist can provide pros and cons. Just read for yourself and see what you think.

I think that is a wise suggestion. I found the quotes very interesting, because no one has ever spoken of Mary’s lineage in the Protestant churches I have attended. They teach that Mary had children, after Jesus. I’m looking for some historical evidence. I will also read more about the Perpetual Virginity and Assumption, if someone would point me in the right direction.

Nowhere in those texts does it indicate that they were Jesus’ biological brothers. These “relatives according to the flesh” are cousins, since certainly, Mary had siblings and cousins who had children.They would share blood with Jesus, but not share Mary’s womb.
Love is Patient

I’m aware of the assumption that they were cousins. I just want to study what I can, to sort this out. I’m not asking the question, with a firm answer in mind.

Brothers according to the flesh…means cousins?
How come the word cousin appears in Eusebius when appropriate?
We are discussing Greek so arguments about Aramaic are not applicable in this case like they MIGHT be 100 years earlier.

Very good point.

That assumes that of that period match ours. Which there is no reason to suppose. We can’t retroject our interests and obsessions & fooleries onto the past ​

I agree that we must try to read early texts in historical context, as much as possible. Though I think it would take a great deal of study to claim the authority to place things in historical context.

It is not my intention to cloud my view of history with “obsessions and fooleries.” The beliefs about Mary are very different in Protestantism and Catholicism. I’m simple looking for some answers.

Collaterally, through relatives of St. Joseph - or through an earlier marriage of St. Joseph. Adoption, in that place and time, would could as sonship every bit as fully as direct bodily generation. So Joseph did not need to be Jesus’ father by begetting Him.​

I am not saying that I believe Joseph was the father of Jesus.

Absolutely. That is why I suggested she read the history for herself. There are a myraid of possibilities and choices to be made. She needs to be informed about what history records.

Based upon that, she will have to examine her presuppositions about what that means. Its not an easy process for many people. I only wanted to correct the view that no one was interested in the family of Jesus. They were. Now, from that information decisions have to be made.

Arguments applied to the NT and the Aramaic origins of the oral traditions may or may not be applicable; if indeed they ever were truly applicable in the first place! In the end, she will make, hopefully, an informed prayerful decision and I wish her the best

Very well said. I hope I can live up to your suggestions.

Anna