Protestants:If you don't pray to Saints, do you pray to Angels?

[ALLFORHIM]

I know…and you are too sweet a young lady for me to bang heads with you.

But I think the Psalmist prays to angels in Ps 148:1-2, Ps 103:20-21, and the people ask for the angel’s intercession in Zechariah 1:11-16, and the angel goes to God and God shows mercy on the people! At least that’s how I understand it.

And good for you for praying through Chirst. This is wonderful.

Hi,
I went through those verses like I said I would:thumbsup:
Psalms 148:1-2—alll I see is that the Angels are told to praise God as are we. It doesnt seem to be saying that we should be praying to them:shrug:

Ps 103: 20–21—All I see hear is that the angels are obeying God’s Word.–I dont see that we are to pray to them.

Zechariah 1: 11–16–that one Im not sure about. At first glance it looked as if the angel was reporting back to God(which I do believe happens now and also to the end ) but again I dont see any mention of praying to them.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Hi,
I went through those verses like I said I would:thumbsup:
Psalms 148:1-2—alll I see is that the Angels are told to praise God as are we. It doesnt seem to be saying that we should be praying to them:shrug:

Ps 103: 20–21—All I see hear is that the angels are obeying God’s Word.–I dont see that we are to pray to them.

Zechariah 1: 11–16–that one Im not sure about. At first glance it looked as if the angel was reporting back to God(which I do believe happens now and also to the end ) but again I dont see any mention of praying to them.

To pray merely means to ask. In the Psalms, the angels are directly addressed and asked to give praise along with the Psalmist. And the same applies to Zechariah…the “prayer” is simply asking the angel for intercession, just as we would here with our neighbors! God bless you ALLFORHIM!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,
I thought this was interesting it is from gotquestions.org I thought you and others may enjoy reading it.

Question: “What does the Bible say about angels?”

Answer: Angels are personal spiritual beings, having aspects of intelligence, emotions, and will. This is true of both the good and evil angels. Angels possess intelligence (Matthew 8:29; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12), show emotions (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Revelation 12:17), and demonstrate that they have wills (Luke 8:28-31: 2 Timothy 2:26; Jude 6). Angels are spirit beings (Hebrews 1:14), with no true physical body. The fact that they do not have bodies does not affect their being personalities (any more than it does with God).

The knowledge angels possess is limited by their being created beings. This means they do not know all things as God does (Matthew 24:36). They do seem to have greater knowledge than humans, however. This may be due to three causes. (1) Angles were created as a higher order of creatures in the universe than humans are. Therefore, innately they possess greater knowledge. (2) Angels study the Bible and the world more thoroughly than humans do and gain knowledge from it (James 2:19; Revelation 12:12). (3) Angels gain knowledge through long observation of human activities. Unlike humans, angels do not have to study the past; they have experienced it. Therefore, they know how others have acted and reacted in situations and can predict with a greater degree of accuracy how we may act in similar circumstances.

Though they have wills, the angels are, like all creatures, subject to the will of God. Good angels are sent by God to help believers (Hebrews 1:14). Here are some activities the Bible ascribes to angels:

A. They praise God (Psalm 148:1,2; Isaiah 6:3).
B. They worship God (Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:8-13).
C. They rejoice in what God does (Job 38:6-7).
D. They serve God (Psalm 103:20; Revelation 22:9).
E. They appear before God (Job 1:6; 2:1).
F. They are instruments of God’s judgments (Revelation 7:1; 8:2).
G. They bring answers to prayer (Acts 12:5-10).
H. They aid in winning people to Christ (Acts 8:26; 10:3).
I. They observe Christian order, work, and suffering (1 Corinthians 4:9; 11:10; Ephesians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:12).
J. They encourage in times of danger (Acts 27:23,24).
K. They care for the righteous at the time of death (Luke 16:22).

Angels are entirely a different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity. The Bible nowhere states that angels are created in the image and likeness of God, as humans are (Genesis 1:26). Angels are spiritual beings that can, to a certain degree, take on physical form. Humans are primarily physical beings, but with a spiritual aspect. The greatest thing we can learn from the angels is their instant, unquestioning obedience to God’s commands.

 

[Jean_2004]

Could there possibly be a differerence in the way Catholics define “to pray” and the was ncc define “to pray”? So asking ncc’s if they pray to Angels, may not “sound” the same, as asking this same question to a Catholic.

 

[byoby]

I might have agreed except they are directly addressed as “you angels” and “you” heavenly hosts. He is asking them to pray with him.

When I read the entire chapter of Psalm 148 I also found many other things directly addressed as “you” such as sea creatures and the depths of the sea, mountains and all hills, kings and rulers and all people of the earth, the birds of the air and on & on. Why stop at Angels? All creations screams out in praise, or will someday to its creator, but I do not think this is a good example for your case about praying to angels. I beieve it is clear that God uses Angels to communicate with us sometimes in visions which are face to face meetings, but is it not God who dispatches the Angels when request are made to him by saints? Why is the model Jesus taught us to pray in the “Lords Prayer” not sufficent. Again I have to stand behind my assertion that there are no examples of praying to anyone other than God in the bible.

 

[byoby]

Although most of the protestants here will tell you that they don’t ask the angels and saints to pray for them…

As a recent convert into the True Catholic Faith, I have to say that I’ll bet 99% of them have said something to a person who has died.

Whether that be at a funeral…looking into a casket and saying something as simple as "I love You, I’m gonna miss you, or WHY.

When I argued with my Father about becoming Catholic, our main topic was as follows:

Dad: Why would Catholics talk to Mary, you know thats wrong.

ME: You know when you go to your mothers grave and you just sit there for hours, and sometimes you talk to her.

Dad: Yeah, I’ve done that a few times.

ME: Do you think she can hear you, and is in Heaven watching over you?

Dad: I guess.

ME: Then why don’t you think you can talk to Jesus Mother? Don’t you think she is in Heaven.

Dad: Ok, you are probably right on that one.

I also talk to my car and other inaminate objects (more when I am mad it them… forgive me), sometimes I even talk to other people when they are not around (regretfully sometimes for the same reason). I still can not justify in my own mind this practice.

 

[AgnosTheist]

for catholics, are saints and angels like God that out of the billions of people out there they can actually hear your prayers?

 

[MarcoPolo]

When I read the entire chapter of Psalm 148 I also found many other things directly addressed as “you” such as sea creatures and the depths of the sea, mountains and all hills, kings and rulers and all people of the earth, the birds of the air and on & on. Why stop at Angels? All creations screams out in praise, or will someday to its creator, but I do not think this is a good example for your case about praying to angels. I beieve it is clear that God uses Angels to communicate with us sometimes in visions which are face to face meetings, but is it not God who dispatches the Angels when request are made to him by saints? Why is the model Jesus taught us to pray in the “Lords Prayer” not sufficent. Again I have to stand behind my assertion that there are no examples of praying to anyone other than God in the bible.

We don’t pray to animals and inanimate objects because animals and stones have no capacity for inteceding perhaps? If we were in a room and I poetically said, “Let us all pray to God, me, you byob, ALLFORHIM, and AgnosTheist, and all the angels and saints, and all the creatures, and all of creation, every bird of the sea!” That would be hyperbole suggesting all should praise God…but it does not take away your capacity as a human being to be literally able to praise God.

Nevertheless! You can always stick with the Zechariah passage and pray to angels! I don’t think the lesson is that it’s ok to pray to angels ONLY if they manifest themselves physically. But I just think to know Jesus completely is to know the gifts He shares.

Or you can pray to Jesus…that is ok! Don’t get me wrong! At least you know Catholics don’t just make stuff out of thin air to be heretical.

 

[MarcoPolo]

for catholics, are saints and angels like God that out of the billions of people out there they can actually hear your prayers?

From this article here.

*If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows. *

 

[byoby]

We don’t pray to animals and inanimate objects because animals and stones have no capacity for inteceding perhaps? If we were in a room and I poetically said, “Let us all pray to God, me, you byob, ALLFORHIM, and AgnosTheist, and all the angels and saints, and all the creatures, and all of creation, every bird of the sea!” That would be hyperbole suggesting all should praise God…but it does not take away your capacity as a human being to be literally able to praise God.

Nevertheless! You can always stick with the Zechariah passage and pray to angels! I don’t think the lesson is that it’s ok to pray to angels ONLY if they manifest themselves physically. But I just think to know Jesus completely is to know the gifts He shares.

Or you can pray to Jesus…that is ok! Don’t get me wrong! At least you know Catholics don’t just make stuff out of thin air to be heretical.

If you define praying as talking in the conventional sense I will agree that Zechariah is to use your word “Praying” to an angel, I do not think the Bible uses this word though. By this definition there are many examples throughout the Bible with John, Mary, Daniel and so on, but I must point out that the Angels were always visible to the one “Praying” and the Angels “Prayed” back audibly to the person praying as well. I still do not see it the way you do and am not in anyway saying you are wrong, I just honestly do not see it myself.

 

[MarcoPolo]

If you define praying as talking in the conventional sense

It simply means “to ask” in the sense I use it.

 

[inJESUS]

I hope this is not one of the issues that seperate Catholics from Protestants. Or is it?

cuz i see it’s a much ado about nothing. We are not obliged to ask for anyone’s intercession; we are allowed. Those who choose not to are not breaking any law; Unless protestants believe it is wrong, then here it’s a different topic. Clarifications please .

 

[Ginger2]

re: Post # 17

I have never prayed to anyone I knew who died.

I have always prayed directly to God. When I was told a better way to pray is thru the saints in heaven - especially Mary - I tried.

It didn’t feel right so I went back to praying directly to God.

As I read the Bible (my Catholic Bible) I saw Jesus told us to pray to God and that whatever we ask in his name, if we believe it is already been given, it would be so.

I do ask the saints still on earth to pray for me or someone else. WE are told in the Bible to pray for one another. It has great benefits, not only to the one being prayed for, but also to the one doing the praying.

 

[water]

I do ask the saints still on earth to pray for me or someone else. WE are told in the Bible to pray for one another. It has great benefits, not only to the one being prayed for, but also to the one doing the praying.

May I ask you why we are told to pray for one another?

 

[mgrfin]

re: Post # 17

I have never prayed to anyone I knew who died.

I have always prayed directly to God. When I was told a better way to pray is thru the saints in heaven - especially Mary - I tried.

It didn’t feel right so I went back to praying directly to God.

As I read the Bible (my Catholic Bible) I saw Jesus told us to pray to God and that whatever we ask in his name, if we believe it is already been given, it would be so.

I do ask the saints still on earth to pray for me or someone else. WE are told in the Bible to pray for one another. It has great benefits, not only to the one being prayed for, but also to the one doing the praying.

There are many paths to God. There is no necessity to pray to the saints, or call to others to be intercessors for us, as in the case of Mary.

I am sure you have been told of the example given to us at the Marriage of Cana, where Mary intercessed in that Miracle.

However, none of that is a necessity. So long as you pray to God in Jesus name, even when asking the intercession of those who have gone before us, that is the way to go.

Protestant prayers aint any more powerful than Catholics, for we both pray in the name of Jesus, even when we are praying to a particular saint for his or her intercession.

Check out a Catholic prayer book. You will see how these prayers are worded, “Through our Lord Jesus Christ…” or some version thereof.

peace

 

[THutch04]

Actually, I was just having this discussion with a couple of Protestant friends not too long ago, and they said that while they don’t pray to Saints, they have prayed to Angels, and even believe they have a Guardian Angel. Their reasoning was that Angels were created separately from humans, and so were able to hear and intercede for us. They also said that they will sometimes ask a relative or friend who died to help them. So while they’re not praying to canonized Saints, they are praying to someone who had died…it was a very interesting conversation. I’ve found that if you specify that we’re really asking the Saints to intercede for us, then people understand the meaning more. I actually don’t usually ask people on earth to pray for me, I ask the Saints.

 

[Syele]

Could there possibly be a differerence in the way Catholics define “to pray” and the was ncc define “to pray”? So asking ncc’s if they pray to Angels, may not “sound” the same, as asking this same question to a Catholic.

Jean hit the nail on the head. to protestants to “pray” is “an act of worship”. (notice I didn’t say the only one) Where Catholics see it as “to ask.” I think everyone here can agree that those are not the same thing, or even close.Many many of my prays do not involve asking anything. But it is always as act of worship.

So once again we use the same word with two totally different meanings. trying to make either group use the opposite meaning skews the actual beliefs involved.

Do I worship angels or Saints? no, and I know Catholics don’t either.

Do I generally ask them things? no, While I believe Some angels and Saints are aware of me or even sent by God to help me at times, I do not believe they are omnipresent or all knowing. Therefore they can only hear me if they are allowed by God to hear me at that moment. If I have no reason to believe they are there at that moment, I may as well ask my door frame. I generally don’t ask my mom to pray for me if she is not present or on the phone with me etc.

Would I ask an angel or Saint something if they appeared to me? most likely yes.

 

[mgrfin]

Actually, I was just having this discussion with a couple of Protestant friends not too long ago, and they said that while they don’t pray to Saints, they have prayed to Angels, and even believe they have a Guardian Angel. Their reasoning was that Angels were created separately from humans, and so were able to hear and intercede for us. They also said that they will sometimes ask a relative or friend who died to help them. So while they’re not praying to canonized Saints, they are praying to someone who had died…it was a very interesting conversation. I’ve found that if you specify that we’re really asking the Saints to intercede for us, then people understand the meaning more. I actually don’t usually ask people on earth to pray for me, I ask the Saints.

Actually, Catholics pray to angels as well. And we also believe that we each have a Guardian Angel.

October 2nd is the celebration of the Feast of Guardian Angels.

Epistle reading from Exodus 23: 20-23

And a prayer taught to me by my mother:

Angel of God, My Guardian dear
To whom His love commits me here
Ever this day be at my side,
to rule and guide. Amen

peace

 

[mgrfin]

Jean hit the nail on the head. to protestants to “pray” is “an act of worship”. (notice I didn’t say the only one) Where Catholics see it as “to ask.” I think everyone here can agree that those are not the same thing, or even close.Many many of my prays do not involve asking anything. But it is always as act of worship.

So once again we use the same word with two totally different meanings. trying to make either group use the opposite meaning skews the actual beliefs involved.

Do I worship angels or Saints? no, and I know Catholics don’t either.

Do I generally ask them things? no, While I believe Some angels and Saints are aware of me or even sent by God to help me at times, I do not believe they are omnipresent or all knowing. Therefore they can only hear me if they are allowed by God to hear me at that moment. If I have no reason to believe they are there at that moment, I may as well ask my door frame. I generally don’t ask my mom to pray for me if she is not present or on the phone with me etc.

Would I ask an angel or Saint something if they appeared to me? most likely yes.

Veneration, which we give to angels and saints is a form of worship. Adoration is a form of worship we give to God alone.

Angels and saints are not in time; they are in eternity. It is a perpetual now, while on earth, our time moves on, minute by minute.

Actually, you are making a distinction between prayer that really doesn’t exist. We pray, we ask, we beg, we beseech, we worship, we glorify, we express belief, we give thanks, we praise, we adore, all in the name of prayer, all forms of the same thing.

Our great prayer, the Sacrifice of the Mass, is our act of worship, and contains all of the above.

 

[Syele]

Actually, you are making a distinction between prayer that really doesn’t exist. We pray, we ask, we beg, we beseech, we worship, we glorify, we express belief, we give thanks, we praise, we adore, all in the name of prayer, all forms of the same thing.

Our great prayer, the Sacrifice of the Mass, is our act of worship, and contains all of the above.

My point is that for Protestants the distinction DOES exist. Prayer, along with whatever else it is, is always an act of worship. SO to say do you pray to angels to a protestant is to say “Do you you speak to angels AND worship them?”

I’m not saying Catholics don’t worship or any such silly thing. I am telling you that Catholics and protestants do not have the same definition for the word. And that must be considered when you ask these sort of questions or it leads to confusion on both sides.