Protestants:If you don't pray to Saints, do you pray to Angels?

[MariaG]

I hold onto, for dear life I might add, the letters that also contain the oral traditions of the early church. I have been accused of not being a Christian, an imitator, a partaker of invalid practices, and now a false teacher in this thread alone and do not find the spirit of these accusations to be fruitfull. If I am coming off in this way it is not my intent, I just have questions about your Faith. If you read Pauls’ Letters to the Churches and look at the 7 Churches in Revelation you will find that errors and heretical teachings were present during the very time the Apostles were teaching!!!
Do you believe the Church has ever been without error?

Respectfully, I am asking for you to show me, that since your beliefs only coincidently resemble even that of the reformers, that your beliefs have not come along, as scripture warns against.

You say you hold onto the Oral Traditions that the letters contain? In what manner? Oral, by definition, is just that, oral. While I do feel that most if not all of the oral traditions of the Church are at least implicit in scripture, for example, infant baptism, what do you mean by this.

Questions are good. But you also need to expect your assertions to be challenged when we feel they contradict the apostolic teachings, which we believe are the teachings of the Catholic Church. This can be done in a civil manner even while we both firmly and honestly state our opinions. I think it has been done so. It is hard sometimes to not feel like you are being attacked, yet as we both know, the gospel can be hard to hear sometimes and there will be those who walk away. We can rise above this though and discuss things civilly without watering down the truth.

And yes, there were heretical teachings being espoused by some, even many if you look at the Arian heresy. But if you also look at these heresies, they were spoken out against. In the Case of the Arian heresy, it was as if the bishop of Rome stood alone against it. Which completely reflects the understanding we have of an “infallible church”, which we believe scripture promises.

We should probably go to a different thread though for this line of inquiry

God Bless,
Maria

 

[vocatio]

There is only one Church and that is Christ’s Church, the Church of Christ. We refer to it as the Universal Church because it is one and for all. It is the one holy catholic and apostolic church. Catholic or Orthodox as well have claim to it. I know of only a few Protestant groups that claim to be the true church and one calls themself the Church of Christ. It has sister communities - Disciples of Christ and the Christian Church. Ironically they can only define that they existed in cognito under trees along the banks of rivers as my dear sweet mother-in-law puts it. They believe anyone not a member of the Lord’s church is doomed to everlasting condemnation. Church of Christ preacher seem to be able to do circles around faith only or grace only churches (ecclesial communities for you Catholics - like me ).

The conspiracy theories about how the Catholic Church kept you Protestants down is miraculous in and of itself. If that is what you believe then the evidence would justify that you used to be gnositic or some other heretical group. The fact is that even Methodists recognized the root of their history through Catholicism. It was discovering the ancient church fathers and writings that converted me back to Catholicism. I really wanted to become an Orthodox for many reasons and too deep for this board. I am still looking at the Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Catholic “Rite”. In a nut shell, the Catholic Church teaches that if someone is not in the Church of Christ (that is the Catholic Church) and they are saved, they are saved through the Church not their own ecclesial community. It is God’s divine mercy through the blood of Jesus that they are saved. …for it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and not by works, so that no man can boast, it is the gift of God… You see, Catholics believe that we are save by Grace alone, but not the way Protestants misinterpret it. Our works are a sign of our faith. James says that faith without works is dead. It’s kind of like claiming to be Christian without a prayer life. Poorly paraphrased, but you get the idea.

BTW: I thing this topic has made a turn into another post. You might want to start a new thread.

When I was Protestant I used to sneak a prayer to my guardian angle which I have learned to believe in without a doubt. I was blest with seeing mine while saving me. I’m sure some would claim some kind of psychological phenomina…but that’s they problem, not mine. Believe what you will, but when I was initially seeing the historical catholic looking church from the ancient church fathers, I had issues praying to Saints, especilly Mary - even though I used to be devoted to that “idolatrous practice”. But it was coming to understand “why Mary” and her role as the “New Eve” that brought it together for me. However, in spite of this I still felt uncomfortable about praying the rosary again, believing I might be offending God, our creator. In my fear one night I fell asleep and while shallowly reciting Hail Mary prayers and trying to concentrate on the mystery I fell asleep near my daughter. In a dream the Blessed Mother brought me or coaxed or even coached me and encouraged me to finish the Rosary. I fell asleep at the beginning of the 4th mystery. Mary appeared to me translucent or transfigured in bright white with a blue sash (sp.?). I finished the rosary in my sleep and when I woke I started trying to say it the next day and the next, etc. So now that I understand why we pray the rosary I know that I am NOT worshiping Mary and I beleive that we bring honor to Christ by honoring His mother…the mother of Jesus that the Holy Spirit came upon…that God found favor with…that said all nations will call her blessed…the lady that was full of grace…a very holy woman…the Lord was truly with her…the one who bore the blessed child of God, Jesus…the mother of God. So yes, once I began to understand this I realized that I am seeking her special inercession.

BTW: Some Catholics do approach saints to the level of idolotry. That will be on their shoulders on the judgement. But we should seek inercession from each other and the Saints and Angels in heaven…our Guardian Anglels to pray for them. But also note that some Protestants have created an idol on earth…they call it the Bible. The Bible was provided to us and protected for us by the holy catholic and apostolic church. 325 A.D. Oh yea. I haven’t seen anyone quote St. Ignatius of Antioch on his way to be put to death for the faith in 107 A.D. He used the term KATHOLIKOS or translated later to be Catholic. Google it.

 

[byoby]

Respectfully, I am asking for you to show me, that since your beliefs only coincidently resemble even that of the reformers, that your beliefs have not come along, as scripture warns against.

You say you hold onto the Oral Traditions that the letters contain? In what manner? Oral, by definition, is just that, oral. While I do feel that most if not all of the oral traditions of the Church are at least implicit in scripture, for example, infant baptism, what do you mean by this.

Questions are good. But you also need to expect your assertions to be challenged when we feel they contradict the apostolic teachings, which we believe are the teachings of the Catholic Church. This can be done in a civil manner even while we both firmly and honestly state our opinions. I think it has been done so. It is hard sometimes to not feel like you are being attacked, yet as we both know, the gospel can be hard to hear sometimes and there will be those who walk away. We can rise above this though and discuss things civilly without watering down the truth.

And yes, there were heretical teachings being espoused by some, even many if you look at the Arian heresy. But if you also look at these heresies, they were spoken out against. In the Case of the Arian heresy, it was as if the bishop of Rome stood alone against it. Which completely reflects the understanding we have of an “infallible church”, which we believe scripture promises.

We should probably go to a different thread though for this line of inquiry

God Bless,
Maria

The Gospel, doctrines, the commands of Christ, the entire redemptive plan for mankind was first orally communicated and then eventually written down for us in the Bible, Right? I thank God that he has preserved His word throughout the ages and moved those He chose to record His Word. If the Catholic Church believes so highly in the writtings and traditions of its very own Church Fathers and holds them up to be equal with Gods Word, why are these not Cannonized into the Bible? or is the Catechism held in the same regard as scripture? I believe that traditions and practices must not contradict what the Bible teaches and believe you do as well from what I am seeing. I just so far am unable to reconcile my initial reaction regarding the question posed in this thread with the defense given for it. I am not at a place to say that Catholic Doctrines are in contradiction with the Bible, that is what I am trying to understand at this point in my life. I do not study and pattern my life around the teachings of Martin Luther, John Calvin, The Papacy, my Pasture, or anyone else other than God. I will listen to what they have to say and weigh what is taught and practiced with the respect I am to give my elders. I only profess to follow God who has revealed Himself to us through His Word. The only name I can honestly call myself is Christian. I also do not believe everything that I hear from “Protestant” teachers as well, I only hold God, His Word and His understandings for the words to be infallible. I believe God when He says that He has sent us The Holy Spirit to teach us. Paul says that if an Angel or another Apostle teaches any Gospel other than the one he has taught, than do not believe it. The Bible teaches us to test all things and hold onto what is true. You might say I have not found the truth yet, but ultimately I have to decide what I believe for myself. If all these roads lead to the Catholic Church as being the “True Church” than that is where I will be, just not there yet. I do not hold my own understanding to be without error, but I will submit it to God. I ask questions and offer up my understandings not knowing if it will be affirmed or denied, again that is why I am here. Right or wrong, God will sort it out in His time. This is what I bbelieve at this moment about these issues. I am going to continue to study the question about praying originally posted in this thread and try to keep my responses on topic. Thank you for aallowing me to explain myself.

 

[Pax]

…
…
If the Catholic Church believes so highly in the writtings and traditions of its very own Church Fathers and holds them up to be equal with Gods Word, why are these not Cannonized into the Bible? or is the Catechism held in the same regard as scripture?

…
…

The Church gives weight to the ECF’s because they were taught in many cases by the apostles themselves. They offer us an insight into the correct interpretation of scripture and are early witnesses to what was being taught and handed down by the apostles.

The Church does not place their writings on an equal footing with scipture and therefore did not place them in the Canon. There were letters such as the Shepherd of Hermas and the Letter of Clement that some believed should have been in the Canon, but the Catholic Church decided not to do so. Yes, the writings of the ECF’s are important but they are not scripture.

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not on an equal footing with scripture. Scripture is considered authoritative and inerrant by the Church. The catechism is considered an authoritative document, but it is not considered to be inspired or to be an infallibly written document. This latter statement does not diminish its importance because the catechism contains the practical understandings and infallible doctrines of the Church that come from scripture and the apostolic traditions. Each has there place.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

byoby,

Keep thinking and posting…I like your style.

 

[mgrfin]

.

BYOBY:

Byoby, thou doth protest too much. All the Shibboleths are there. You are probably some Protestant seminarian somewhere, and you are here telling us that you are a ‘pilgrim’ seeking the truth (without Luther and Calvin). But I say in your own mind, you have the truth, and you are here to trick these Catholics.

Firstly, you don’t accept Maccabees. Definitely a Protestant thing because it is a scriptural proof of prayers for the dead. One Shibbileth.

And Sola Scriptura, that too you tout as the heart of Christianity. Another Shibbileth. Who taugh you Sola Scriptura was the way to go, except Luther and all the Protestant adherents to variations of the heresies promulgated in the 16th century?

What is true is the original of these scriptures. Not the translations of translations we have today. They approximate what was originally written, . How do you know what you read there is even by the original author.

It was the Catholic Church who preserved these scriptures through the centuries, and kept them for us.

You point out to us all the heresies that have happened thru the centuries, meaning others had problems with the Catholic Church as the true Church, therefoe the Church is not true. Shibbileth number Threee.

Look what happen to Lutheranism even before the death of Fr. Martin. It was shattered as a religion, and what you have left are little shards of the Christianity. True also of what Calvin taught. The whole of the truth is found in the Catholic Church, not in Lutheranism or in Calvinism, or what is left of it.

Which truth do you take as higher: Scripture or Tradition? Without a doubt you will take Scripture, your great Shibbileth cause that is the Protestant way to go. But the truth is: The revelations made to the Apostles by Christ, and by the Holy Spirit whom he sent to teach all truth was final and definitive. Both only two of the Twelve were Evangelists. The other 10 never committed a Gospel to paper that we know of. What of what they said and taught? – was it for naught cause it was never written down? Hardly. It is part of our Catholic Tradition.

To that body of what the Apostles taught by way of revealed truth – nothing will be added. Nothing like ‘sola scriptura’ will be added, nothing like ‘justification by faith only’ will be added. What remains of your Protestantism, then, will fall on its own lack of merits.

What we have from the Apostles is the true Catholic Church left by the Apostles, and guided by the Holy Spirit.

St. Paul commands you and us for all posterity: “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle” (2 Thess ii, 4).

You hold to your Protestant interpretations of what scriptures have been presented to you. E.G. on the Eucharist, which are clear and unrefutable relating to the real presence.

Therefore, when the Catholic Church, not the remnants of what Calvin or Luther did, but the Catholic Church teaches a revealed truth she draws on the ‘sources’ of revelation.

I would like to examine the sources of revelation in another post.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

.

So you believe in the Protestant approach to the Eucharist, and you based this on the thinking of Jesus that he was only talking symbolically that this wasn’t really his body and blood?

I guess his death on the Cross was only a symbolic death.

Of course he was speaking literally. That is why we have this happening in John 6.

And as for St. Paul, he is accusing the faithful of serious sin by partaking of this symbolic bread and wine?

My, my Byoby, how Protestant you really are!

Christ established a sacrificial Priesthood. Not necessary if he was talking about some symbolic ceremony that a small child could conduct. It was not what was happening in the Catecombs or in the early Church.

How did this grave error creep into the times of St. Paul, who was so watchful over the early churches he founded.

You pride yourself on your knowledge of Scripture. You go on this site quoting ad libitum passages from the Sacred books. Why don’t you really read it?

peace

 

[Ginger2]

MariaG > “But for a non-Catholic Christian, whose only truth they know is scripture, it is all they have.”

Obviously, a collection of books and letters we call the Bible is not all Protestants have. We have God.

You yourself testify to that. The Holy Spirit led you to where God wants you to be today while you were still a member of a protestant church.

God took me out of the Catholic church. That’s not a slam on the RC. It’s just that sometimes God moves us around from here to there so that He can use us in exactly the way He wants to.

May God continue to bless you, MariaG.

 

[mgrfin]

I daresay you took yourself out of the Catholic Church. Or is this another example of Protestant belief in lack of free will?

peace

 

[St_Violet]

every bible only christian believes they are being guided by GOD, and yet they all contradict each other, I Wish the protestants would atleast stop saying they are being guided by the Holy Spirit that way it will no longer be insulting towards our Lord.

God is not the God of confusion, and yet many protestants will continue to protray GOD this way.

 

[BrewMax]

In another thread, I have heard Protestants deny that Saints in heaven are aware of us, and that they are not like angels in this regard.

So in light of Scripture telling us about the angels Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, do you as a Protestant ever pray to these angels to intercede for you with the gifts they have from God??

??? I never said that the saints in Heaven aren’t aware of us.

 

[Ginger2]

I am the one who said I don’t believe the saints in heaven are aware of us.

POST # 138:
"*How can it be heaven if they see terrible things happening to their loved ones and have no power to stop it?

Isn’t heaven a happy place? It would seem more like hell to have to watch a child suffer at the hands of a brutal murderer or die a slow painful death from cancer and not be able to hold him and comfort him.

To hear our family praying to us to ask God to intercede and then asking us why God did nothing.

I just don’t think heaven is like that*."

 

[Pax]

We are God’s adopted sons and daughters and Jesus is our brother. Does that mean that because our Triune God knows our sufferings that He is also unhappy?

 

[byoby]

Mgrfin,

I am a college dropout who has become a swimming pool builder in Texas, not a scholar or seminarian by any stretch of the imagination. I am not here to trick anybody, just expressing my beliefs and I must say that I am surprised that there is so much hostility towards your fellow brothers & sisters in Christ. I have been asked to come and join the Catholic Church by several on this site as if my belief & faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not enough. I must say that in my opinion, the Scriptures do not seem to agree with you. If you disagree then point it out and back it up with the Bible (Gods Word), I never made the claim to infallibility and will accept correction if it is shown to be true. I do not believe in the sole revelation of Scripture only, I just hold Scripture to be the Authority. I study the Scriptures and have a deep hunger for it. If my belief in the bible (Not the book itself, but the words) can cause some to accuse me of idolatry than I will proudly accept the title for the bible says: In the beginning was the Word, The Word was with God, and the Word is God. If you want to know God, study his word. I do not argue against the claim that the Catholic Church has helped preserve the Scriptures and quite frankly I do not see why this pertains to this discussion anyways. If we are going to give credit to anyone other than God than I would say we owe more to the Jews without whom we would have no Bible at all. I must also point out that recent archeological evidence shows that our current translations are extremely accurate to the originals (ex. Dead Sea Scrolls). History and evidence shows that God has preserved His word through the ages. I do not reject Maccabees, I just have not read it myself so I have no comment. I do know that this as well as other books (they have a name as a whole and I can not remember) are not even accepted as Scripture by Judaism. Since it came from Jews and they reject it, than I am more inclined to agree with them at this point in my walk (Pilgrimmage). I admit that I am ignorant on this subject and need to look into it more. I will take Gods Word over Tradition to the grave and my ultimate hope, beyond. If my interpretations agree with other people who try to understand and read the Bible then maybe we are onto something and it is nothing new at all. I sometimes wonder if the Catholic Church is not happy that bibles are so easily accessed today.

 

[Ginger2]

We are God’s adopted sons and daughters and Jesus is our brother. Does that mean that because our Triune God knows our sufferings that He is also unhappy?

I don’t understand what your point is.

 

[MariaG]

The Gospel, doctrines, the commands of Christ, the entire redemptive plan for mankind was first orally communicated and then eventually written down for us in the Bible, Right?

No. Nowhere in scripture indicates that ALL got written down.

Scripture does tell us to hold fast to the written and the oral, but nowhere does it state, okay, God inspired all the written, it’s all written down now.

But we do see in scripture what He did do, founded a church throught which all would be transimitted to each generation.

I do believe that “enough” got written down, but I prefer the long version and not just the condensed

I

thank God that he has preserved His word throughout the ages and moved those He chose to record His Word. If the Catholic Church believes so highly in the writtings and traditions of its very own Church Fathers and holds them up to be equal with Gods Word, why are these not Cannonized into the Bible?

The Catholic Church does not hold them up to be equal with God’s Word. But the Catholic Church does in fact follow that word when it tells us to hold fast to the written as well as the oral, that were entrusted to faithful men just as it says in scripture to do.

or is the Catechism held in the same regard as scripture?

No.

I believe that traditions and practices must not contradict what the Bible teaches and believe you do as well from what I am seeing.

Correct.

I just so far am unable to reconcile my initial reaction regarding the question posed in this thread with the defense given for it.

Okay. That is fair.

I am not at a place to say that Catholic Doctrines are in contradiction with the Bible, that is what I am trying to understand at this point in my life.

I came from a very fundamental, bible believing Church. I have said in the past and say today, if there is ever a doctrine of the Catholic Church that contradicts scripture, I will leave it immediately.

I respect that others may disagree that the Catholic Church has not properly interpreted scripture, yet I am confident in the interpeation. Historical writings of the ECF, along with the Holy Spirit give me this confidence.

I do not study and pattern my life around the teachings of Martin Luther, John Calvin, The Papacy, my Pasture, or anyone else other than God. I will listen to what they have to say and weigh what is taught and practiced with the respect I am to give my elders. I only profess to follow God who has revealed Himself to us through His Word. The only name I can honestly call myself is Christian.

Fair enough, and truly, I respect you for this. I once was where you are so I truly understand.

I also do not believe everything that I hear from “Protestant” teachers as well, I only hold God, His Word and His understandings for the words to be infallible. I believe God when He says that He has sent us The Holy Spirit to teach us. Paul says that if an Angel or another Apostle teaches any Gospel other than the one he has taught, than do not believe it. The Bible teaches us to test all things and hold onto what is true. You might say I have not found the truth yet, but ultimately I have to decide what I believe for myself. If all these roads lead to the Catholic Church as being the “True Church” than that is where I will be, just not there yet.

I understand.

I

do not hold my own understanding to be without error, but I will submit it to God. I ask questions and offer up my understandings not knowing if it will be affirmed or denied, again that is why I am here. Right or wrong, God will sort it out in His time. This is what I bbelieve at this moment about these issues. I am going to continue to study the question about praying originally posted in this thread and try to keep my responses on topic. Thank you for aallowing me to explain myself

This is very good. It is hard to talk with someone who rejects any interpretation of scripture other than there own. They seem to hold to the opinion that it is infallible because they “rely” on scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit. They only have an interpretation of scripture. Scripture does not interpret itself, and scripture itself warns us that it can be hard to understand, especially some of Paul’s writings.

We both seem to understand that scripture warns us that we can decieve even ourselves. We truly must test everything. Even that which we formerly thought to be true. Thank goodness the Holy Spirit doesn’t dump everything on us all at once, but just reveals to us that which we are ready to understand.

Thank you for explaining And now back to our discussion on the Saints

May God lead and guide you to all truth.
Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

P.S. I CAN look up and cite the scripture references for every place I said “scripture says”, but my time was limited. Feel free to ask, so you can look it up yourself if you are unfamilar with the scripture I am referring to or think I may be making a claim that scripture doesn’t. I know I do if someone claims that scripture says something but it doesn’t “sound” right to me Or if I just want to read it for myself in my bible. I am a Catholic Christian who still loves to “find it in the Bible”

 

[JOUBERAR]

In another thread, I have heard Protestants deny that Saints in heaven are aware of us, and that they are not like angels in this regard.

So in light of Scripture telling us about the angels Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, do you as a Protestant ever pray to these angels to intercede for you with the gifts they have from God??

:bowdown: I don’t wanna be rude but GOD told us in his ten command ments HE said I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD and there is no other god so I think if GOD want us to pray for angels then there will something in writing and GOD will never allow this because HE IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD AND HE MUST BE worship alone through his SON JESUS.

 

[JOUBERAR]

every bible only christian believes they are being guided by GOD, and yet they all contradict each other, I Wish the protestants would atleast stop saying they are being guided by the Holy Spirit that way it will no longer be insulting towards our Lord.

God is not the God of confusion, and yet many protestants will continue to protray GOD this way.

:bowdown: We mustn’t pointing fingers to each other it is so easy to judge love your enemies and later your enemy becomes your friend show others the good in you and never tell them how bad they are and soon they will follow your example.

 

[WSD]

Mgrfin,

I am a college dropout who has become a swimming pool builder in Texas, not a scholar or seminarian by any stretch of the imagination. I am not here to trick anybody, just expressing my beliefs and I must say that I am surprised that there is so much hostility towards your fellow brothers & sisters in Christ. I have been asked to come and join the Catholic Church by several on this site as if my belief & faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not enough. I must say that in my opinion, the Scriptures do not seem to agree with you. If you disagree then point it out and back it up with the Bible (Gods Word), I never made the claim to infallibility and will accept correction if it is shown to be true. I do not believe in the sole revelation of Scripture only, I just hold Scripture to be the Authority. I study the Scriptures and have a deep hunger for it. If my belief in the bible (Not the book itself, but the words) can cause some to accuse me of idolatry than I will proudly accept the title for the bible says: In the beginning was the Word, The Word was with God, and the Word is God. If you want to know God, study his word. I do not argue against the claim that the Catholic Church has helped preserve the Scriptures and quite frankly I do not see why this pertains to this discussion anyways. If we are going to give credit to anyone other than God than I would say we owe more to the Jews without whom we would have no Bible at all. I must also point out that recent archeological evidence shows that our current translations are extremely accurate to the originals (ex. Dead Sea Scrolls). History and evidence shows that God has preserved His word through the ages. I do not reject Maccabees, I just have not read it myself so I have no comment. I do know that this as well as other books (they have a name as a whole and I can not remember) are not even accepted as Scripture by Judaism. Since it came from Jews and they reject it, than I am more inclined to agree with them at this point in my walk (Pilgrimmage). I admit that I am ignorant on this subject and need to look into it more. I will take Gods Word over Tradition to the grave and my ultimate hope, beyond. If my interpretations agree with other people who try to understand and read the Bible then maybe we are onto something and it is nothing new at all. I sometimes wonder if the Catholic Church is not happy that bibles are so easily accessed today.

Hi,
I’m Bill. Like you I am not a Seminarian or Biblical expert by any imagination. I am a life-long Catholic who has litterly made through some days, by my faith only. I would have to say that your faith in the bible is no more idolitry than my meditation prayer in front of the Eucharist. What we seek is Christ, and we seek Christ to know and follow the will of God the Father.
I would caution you about using Jewish scripture to see about the validity of the Old Testament books that Catholics accept and Protestants do not. The Jewish Cannon of today was not established untill after the distruction of the Temple. It is my understanding that at the time of Jesus these were several Cannons that the Jews used, and the one they chose was the version that the writers of the Testament quoted from the most.
I could not agree with you more about our debt to the Jews. If you look at the Catholic Mass, and compaire that to Jewish traditions and worship, the dept would emerge into view. It is sad that many Catholics do not understand that.
I find it a spiritiual weapon of much value to be able to ask not only by brother and sister in Christ on Earth to pray for me, but also those that have made it to heaven and are face to face with the Father.
It is my hope that one day you and I meet in front of the Father and together give thanks for his great love.
Peace