Protestants:If you don't pray to Saints, do you pray to Angels?

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I would even contend that most Catholics will tell you that there is truth to be found in non-Catholic Christian congregations. In fact, we even see truth in Islam although we recognize its many errors.
 
Islam - That almost makes me cringe.

But you are correct. Reading the koran will point you to the truth of the Christian Bible - if you are truly seeking truth.
 
Ginger2 said:
I thought I made clear that it is other Catholics who claim the RC is the only source of truth. Including comments in this thread.

Peter is where we disagree. I believe he is saying that the Scriptures were not the personal interpretation of many men about who God is, but rather, that God revealed Himself to the men who wrote the Scriptures.
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Yeah we disagree on Peter. The passage says:

2 Peter 1:20
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,”

This seems real clear to me, but let’s verify it with some other things the apostle says.

In 2 Peter 3:15:16 we read this:
“So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

Please note that some of the inspired words written in Paul’s epistles are difficult to understand. People need guidance. That is why the Ethiopian eunuch in the book of Acts asks Phillip to give him guidance in understanding the scriptures. And take note he was a highly educated man. Peter correctly makes the call that some people twist both Paul’s teachings as well as the other scriptures to their own destruction. They do this by way of their personal interpretations that are outside the bounds of Church doctrine.

Moreover, these people don’t even realize what they are doing. They are according to Peter “ignorant and unstable.” He doesn’t say that they don’t pray or ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit either. Personal interpretation for doctrinal purposes is dangerous. When we go outside of the established bounds of doctrine factions ensue. Those that have left the church have invariably used something from scripture as their justification. Today this holds true in Protestant circles even more so than in the Catholic Church.
 
Yeah, the whole Islam thing makes me cringe too. Nevertheless, they profess to believe in the God of Abraham. They just don’t have the Trinitarian understanding and thus don’t have a full picture of God. So also is the case with Judaism on this one point.

IMHO= In my humble opinion.😉
 
Ginger2 said:
MariaG,

I think you have misunderstood.

I am forever being told by Catholics that you can’t trust Scriptures to lead you to truth, because no individual can interpret Scriptures apart from the RC. ONly the RC can accurately interpret Scriptures. Why? Because the Holy Spirit is not given to anyone but the Apostles and the direct descendants of Peter. (ie the Pope)

But you keep testifying that is not true. The Holy Spirit can and does speak to individuals seeking the truth.

I agree with you MariaG! 👍
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Pax said:
I think the problem is more nuanced than you suggest. There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit can and does use scripture to lead us to truth…
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I would say it is more nuanced also, also. But no, I did not misunderstand, and I frequently remind my Catholic brethren that the Holy spirit Can and has lead people to all truth through scripture alone.

The problem becomes when someone claims to have scripture and the Holy spirit to interpret, and the interpretation contradicts all other interpretations previously known.

I would have to read the comment where you say that you have been told the Holy Spirit is not given to anyone but those stated for that is a complete contradiction of Catholic teachings which tell us we all recieve the Holy spirit and in fact are sealed with it. If any person, told you that no one receives the holy Spirit except the apostles and the pope, they were wrong.

Anyone can be led by the Holy Spirit, to interpret scripture. But we have to guard against misleading ourselves into thinking something is from God but actually is not. If our interpretation contradicts the Church, which scripture tells us is the pillar and foundation of truth, we must acknowledge that it is not the church that is wrong, but ourselves.

This is where Protestants fall into error. They take thier fallible interpretation, that contradicts the Church, to be infallible. Scripture IS inerrant, but interpretations the separate one from the ONE body of Christ, are not. Some when presenting things do not always get into the deeper nuances of this.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Ginger2 said:
One other thing is that Scriptures clearly tell us that some will twist the Scriptures to their own liking. There is nothing you or anyone else can do about that, short of prayer, because it is our freewill.

Also, Jesus even admitted he often spoke in parables so the unbelieving would not understand.
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You got that right, Ginger. That is where Martin Luther went wrong. He believed in his infallible interpretation of Sacred Scripture, and eventually rejected the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is not only the source of what God has revealed, it it also the one, holy, true source of what God has revealed.

Credo…in unam, sanctam, catholicam, apostolicam Ecclesiam…
and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

The ‘churches’ outside the Catholic Church, are not part of the mystical body of Christ. What truth they have left of truth, they have taken from the Catholic Church

MariaG is absolutely right: " If our interpretation contradicts the Church, which scripture tells us is the pillar and foundation of truth, we must acknowledge that it is not the church that is wrong, but ourselves."

peace
 
Pax said:
I would even contend that most Catholics will tell you that there is truth to be found in non-Catholic Christian congregations. In fact, we even see truth in Islam although we recognize its many errors.
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Truth is not a popularity contest. If you say that some Catholics will tell you there is truth to be found in non-Catholic congregations. I say that some Catholics will tell you there is maximum error to be found in non-Catholic churches. If the people there are saved, it is not as a result of the accidental truth that is found there, but because of the Goodness of God.

You forget what Luther did. He founded this ‘truth’ of Justification by faith only. Faced with his failure to control his violent and sensous character, Luther evolved a false theory (which has misled millions of souls) - a theory which is a combination of pessism and easy optimism.

Thru the Fall of Adam our nature has become essentially evil, a mass of corruption, that will ever remain evil. Even the redeeming blood of our Saviour does not cleanse or heal it. And all are actions are evil, according to Fr. Martin, even what we would think as virtuous (that is why ‘good deeds’ are useless).

But now comes the easy optimism, Luther taught that if we only will have complete confidence that the merit of Jesus Christ are actually applied to us, then our sins are ignored by God. Our souls remain indeed hideous, our sins are not imputed to us, but the merits of Jesus are.

His error remains in his church, which he taught at will. His ‘faith’ is the only thing that matters; good works are of no avail, and are evil from the source from which they spring.

Scriptures show most clearly that the state of grace involves a real interior change in the soul. So St. Paul speaks of the ‘new man’ who is created in justice and holiness of truth. He is alluding to the marvelous change that has occured in us.

So you tell us that truth is found in non-Catholic churches. From what I see is only error, leading people away from the Truth, as found in the Catholic Church.
peace
 
Are you saying that no truth exists in non-Catholic congregations even if they believe the following?:

Jesus is our savior.

The virgin birth.

God is Trinitarian in nature, i.e. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mary is the mother of God because she is the mother of Jesus.

Satan is real.

Sin is evil.

We are to love God above all things.

We are to love our neighbor as ourselves.

And many other things that Catholics also accept as truth?
 
Pax,

The word “Epilysis” means “to let loose” or “to reveal”.

It is only found in this one verse(I think)

Everywhere else the NT uses the word “interpretation”, the Greek is “hermeneuo”, which means, to explain in words, to interpret, to translate what has been spoken or written in a foreign language.

That is why I believe 2 Peter 1:20 is saying that the Scriptures were not the personal interpretation of many men about who God is, but rather, that God revealed Himself to the men who wrote the Scriptures.
 
BTW, My translation of the word “Epilysis” can be verified through a Catholic source.

Fr. Daniel J. Harrington, SJ, A professor of New Testament at Weston Jesuit School of Theology, he is Chair of the Biblical Studies Department, general editor of both the Sacra Pagina series and New Testament Abstracts. Fr. Harrington is the author of numerous articles and books. He received a doctorate in biblical languages from Harvard in 1970 and is a past president of the Catholic Biblical Association of America…

Here is a link.

books.google.com/books?id=7UHuV1XU5tIC&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=epilysis+means+catholic&source=web&ots=Ea6NNbd3eM&sig=hN5Pjw29aHusYPVt6BnDvYObdRA
 
The verse I was referring to is: 2 Ti 4:3 (ie Scriptures clearly tell us that some will twist the Scriptures to their own liking.)

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,”

I guess I should not have used the word “twist” It obviously brings to mind 2 Peter 3:16 .
 
Pax said:
Are you saying that other Catholics including those on this thread actually believe that the Catholic Church is the only source of truth and that the bible is not a source of truth? I don’t think so.
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Forget about what other Catholics on this site believe. We’ll are not taking up surveys about numbers and beliefs.

To the point: There are two sources of divine Revelation, Scripture and Tradition. Both sources of Revelation have been handed to the Roman Catholic Church. That Revelation, made to the Apostles, by Christ and by the Holy Spirit whom He sent to teach them all truth, was final and definitive.

The duty of the Apostles and their successors was clear: to guard jealously the precious thing committed to their care and to transmit it whole and entire to posterity. “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the tranditions which you have learned whether by word or by our epistles”.

Hence, when the Church teaches that a truth, e.g. the doctrine of original sin, is revealed by God, she does not mean that God has just now revealed it to her; but, in virtue of her office as the infallible custodian and interpreter of God’s word, she declares that this truth is contained, and has always been contained, in the deposit of revelation committed to her care.

Sure, some of the truth non-catholic churches have taken and taught. But it has not been given to them, and it is not their office. What truth they may have, is twisted with the errors they have taught, so that it is partial, non-inspired, and not free of error.
You list certain ‘truths’. Ask the 13,000 non-catholic churches and they will each give you a different meaning of such a ‘truth’.

These churches are not part of the teaching authority of the Roman Catholic Church, where only the whole, and full truth of the Faith has been deposited and promulgated.

Peace
 
Your wording on this issue is not the language of the Church. You may wish to consult Catechism.
 
Ginger2 said:
Pax,

The word “Epilysis” means “to let loose” or “to reveal”.

It is only found in this one verse(I think)

Everywhere else the NT uses the word “interpretation”, the Greek is “hermeneuo”, which means, to explain in words, to interpret, to translate what has been spoken or written in a foreign language.

That is why I believe 2 Peter 1:20 is saying that the Scriptures were not the personal interpretation of many men about who God is, but rather, that God revealed Himself to the men who wrote the Scriptures.
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You are partially correct, but I would not word things the way you did, nor would I narrowly spin the verse as you have. Please note that IMHO the general translation used by most English bibles should be accepted. Biblical scholars are well aware of the meaning and usages of the Greek words in question.

Peter intends to say that the original authors/inspired writers did not personally interpret what they wrote, and likewise none of the prophecies are a matter of personal interpretation by us either. Think about it…If the person receiving the inspiration isn’t doing a personal interpretation then how in the world can anyone imagine that individuals should be personally interpreting them thereafter. It is for this reason that English bibles routinely translate the verse as it was quoted earlier. If your view was correct the translations would typically be different.

I hope this helps.
 
Pax said:
Do you really want me to go through all of your posts on this and pick out the statements that do not conform to the Catechism?
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You are suggesting to go thru all my posts, and pick out statements that do not conform to the Catechism?

All 870 of them???

You have to be kidding.

Nothing of what I have written does not conform to the Catholic faith, so be my guest.

I am almost amused.

peace
 
Reread the question. It includes the words “on this.” That means your posts on this thread that pertain to truth, or the lack thereof, found in non-Catholic congregations. There cannot be more than five posts in question.
 
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