Protestants:If you don't pray to Saints, do you pray to Angels?

[Ginger2]

If the person receiving the inspiration isn’t doing a personal interpretation …

Of course he is not doing an interpretation. He is writing down what God has revealed to him - as opposed to giving his own uninspired thoughts on God.

Just like the Apostle Paul said in Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Pax]

mgrfin,

I really do not wish to argue with you on this but I will do one last thing. I have gone to the Catechism and you can read the sections that apply to this issue. They are as follows:

818 “…one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

This is the language of the Church.

 

[Pax]

Of course he is not doing an interpretation. He is writing down what God has revealed to him - as opposed to giving his own uninspired thoughts on God.

Just like the Apostle Paul said in Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Likewise, individual interpretation on our part is also a “no go” and that is precisely why our translations read the way they do.

 

[mgrfin]

Reread the question. It includes the words “on this.” That means your posts on this thread that pertain to truth, or the lack thereof, found in non-Catholic congregations. There cannot be more than five posts in question.

One post, five posts, 870 - it doesn’t matter. There is nothing in any of my posts that is contrary to what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

I don’t know who you are, but you have some nerve to suggest that anything I have written is against Church teaching, or doctrine, or against any Catechism, without pointing out specifically with these ‘errors’ are.

I suggest you start typing, cause I am awaiting your unjustified criticism of a knowlegeable, practicing Catholic, or your apology.

peace

 

[Ginger2]

That is not what I am saying, but I am tired, so maybe we should just let it go for tonight.

I’ve enjoyed talking with you, Pax

 

[Pax]

mgrfin,

I apologize if I have insulted you. We simply disagree on how the Church approaches this subject. We will have to agree to disagree. Again, I apologize for anything I have said or written that has offended you. It won’t happen again.

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin,

I apologize if I have insulted you. We simply disagree on how the Church approaches this subject. We will have to agree to disagree. Again, I apologize for anything I have said or written that has offended you. It won’t happen again.

I am not satisfied to “agree to disagree”.

The Catechism you quote as your source includes the following: “The wounds that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy and schism - do not occur without sin”.

Nothing in my post in contrary to what is in this section of the Cathechism. What I wrote is the teaching of the Catholic church regarding the deposit of faith, scripture and tradition.

Remember the Church teaches “outside the church there is no salvation”, and the recent statements of Benedict XVI in this respect.

peace

 

[Pax]

In that case I retract all of my responses to you and I concede the point.

 

[St_Violet]

I find this comment particularly amusing as I was on another forum awhile back.

The Catholics began accusing four Protestants, including me, of all being the same person because we believed the same things “It’s like they’re clones.” Said one guy.

I made a request for the moderator to verify that I was not perpetrating this falsehood.

When I was cleared not one even apologized for any of the nasty and sarcastic comment they had said to me.

So, you can see why the above quote, “they all contradict each other”, amuses me.

BTW, On the other forum, the four of us turned out to be from different denominations.

so, you are indicating that you and those four other guys have the exact same understanding of the bible in all aspects?

 

[Ginger2]

St_Violet,

Since I never discoursed with any of them, I couldn’t say. There were times when I read some of their posts, and I don’t remember ever disagreeing with what they said.

It was the Catholics who said we agreed to the point of appearing to be one in the same person.

 

[Ginger2]

As usual, Ginger, you misstate our Theology. Scripture and Tradition are not on equal footing. Tradition trumphs Scripture all the time…

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”

CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN

ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, …

82 … Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

 

[mgrfin]

Ginger2:
It would be true, in a sense, to say that there is but one source of revelation, namely, divine Tradition, understanding thereby the body of revealed truth handed down.

St. Basil clearly shows the need for a teaching authority to interpret Scripture properly. Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium work together to prevent distortions of Scripture and the Gospel.

The only certain guide as to inspiration and canonicity of all the books of Sacred Scripture is the authoritative pronouncement of the Church. Moreover, since the Church is the divinely appointed custodian of revelation, it is evidently her office to preserve not merely the letter of Scripture, but also their meaning, The Church, therefore, is the authentic and infallible interpreter of Scripture

These, then, are the two sources of divine revelation: Tradition preserved by the living and infallible teaching authority of the Church, and Scripture, the inspired word of God.

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed

peace

 

[Mogrim]

We can ask for prayer our family or friends and we can also ask for prayer saints or angels.

“Angele Dei, qui custos es mei, me, tibi commissum pietate superna, illumina, custodi, rege et guberna. Amen.”

 

[byoby]

It would be true, in a sense, to say that there is but one source of revelation, namely, divine Tradition, understanding thereby the body of revealed truth handed down.

St. Basil clearly shows the need for a teaching authority to interpret Scripture properly. Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium work together to prevent distortions of Scripture and the Gospel.

The only certain guide as to inspiration and canonicity of all the books of Sacred Scripture is the authoritative pronouncement of the Church. Moreover, since the Church is the divinely appointed custodian of revelation, it is evidently her office to preserve not merely the letter of Scripture, but also their meaning, The Church, therefore, is the authentic and infallible interpreter of Scripture

These, then, are the two sources of divine revelation: Tradition preserved by the living and infallible teaching authority of the Church, and Scripture, the inspired word of God.

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed

peace

If we are going to deny the power of the Holy Spirit to help us “privately” interpret the Scriptures then why would we not take this a step further. On what authority do we know that you are not privatley interpretting Catholic beliefs and Tradition? . By what authority do you claim that your interpretations of Catholic teachings are correct? How would I know if I am correctly interpretting your response anyways? If this is true than you have excluded yourself from this discussion by your own beliefs

If the Holy Spirit is truly helping someone discern the truths of the bible than by definition this is not a “private interpretation” unless you do not believe in the power and promises of God. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can only work within the confines of the Catholic Church? Are you sure?

 

[Pax]

The problem is personal interpretation outside the boundaries of established Christian doctrine. As you know, scripture warns against false teachers and those that twist scripture to their own destruction. Scripture also warns about people that have itching ears that will gather unto themselves teachers of their own liking.

The idea of personal interpretation is flawed because it disregards the church. There is no denying that the Holy Spirit leads us in many ways and that includes reading scripture. The Holy Spirit does not, however, lead individual people in understandings and interpretations that are apart from the Church. Those directions are not from the Holy Spirit.

Those that favor personal interpretation operate in direct opposition to this.

 

[Pax]

byoby,

A good question for you is: By what authority do you personally interpret scripture?

We have the Church to clarify for us the teaching she presents. This process has been going on since Pentecost and we do not have a problem of “interpreting” what the Church says in the way that you have presented it.

The comparison that you are making between the Church and Scripture is wrong because you are comparing two different things. One is a book, albeit inspired, while the other is the mystical body of Christ on earth. The latter is the voice of Christ for God’s word in scripture.

 

[mgrfin]

If we are going to deny the power of the Holy Spirit to help us “privately” interpret the Scriptures then why would we not take this a step further. On what authority do we know that you are not privatley interpretting Catholic beliefs and Tradition? . By what authority do you claim that your interpretations of Catholic teachings are correct? How would I know if I am correctly interpretting your response anyways? If this is true than you have excluded yourself from this discussion by your own beliefs

If the Holy Spirit is truly helping someone discern the truths of the bible than by definition this is not a “private interpretation” unless you do not believe in the power and promises of God. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can only work within the confines of the Catholic Church? Are you sure?

You can privately interprete the Scriptures if you want, and we suspect that you do.

But you have no guarantee of an inerrant interpretation in that case.

However, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, was promised to the Church, and at Pentecost He was sent to guide and protect the Church from error, guaranteed.

You are powerless, Byoby, without the Church when you pick up your Bible to be sure that what meaning you come out with in your reading is error-free. How do you feel about that, Byoby. Want to become a Catholic now? The Tiber is always open to you.

peace

 

[sandusky]

mgrfin:

You can privately interprete the Scriptures if you want, and we suspect that you do.

But you have no guarantee of an inerrant interpretation in that case.

However, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, was promised to the Church, and at Pentecost He was sent to guide and protect the Church from error, guaranteed.

How have you arrived at your understanding that what your Church teaches is true?

 

[mgrfin]

It recently occured to me that of the 12 Apostles, only 2 of them were Evangelists, that is, two sat down and wrote about the ‘‘good news’’. St. Peter and St. James did write Epistles.

St. Paul, considered himself of equal authority with the Twelve, but did not write a Gospel.

So all these Apostles who were not writers were Preachers. And faith comes by hearing. Revealed truth abounded among the faithful who listened to them. So the Sacred Tradition began with the Preachers and the listerners, when the true Church of Christ was founded.

Peace

 

[mgrfin]

How have you arrived at your understanding that what your Church teaches is true?

I think that we both understand the answer to that question, and it is already included in my post.

Sacred Scripture tells us that Christ sent the Paraclete to the Church to guide, enlighten and protect the Church from error. The Catholic Church alway has taught that.

Now, let me ask you the same question. We say your church is not true, because it was founded by John Calvin in the 16th century, on the basis of Sola Scriptura, Fides sola, etc. Predestination (and how do you know you are saved, since Calvin says God saves whom He will?), are all heretical doctrines. It was not founded by Jesus Christ, and since its founding it has split like an amoeba, into thousands of ‘christian communities’, all claiming to have the truth, and to be the true Church of Christ.
Can’t all be true.

You accept private interpretation of Sacred Scripture, you have divested yourself of the Sacramental presence, and the other sacraments, excepting baptism, instituted by Christ.

It is a dark, pessimistic religion, that man is evil, as is everything he does. You cling with faith that you are saved, and with Predestination, you never know that you are.

Your response?

peace.