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sandusky
Guest
You haven’t answered my question.
How do you know what the scripture means? What method have you employed to arrive at your personal conclusions? :ehh:
- Status
How do you know what the scripture means? What method have you employed to arrive at your personal conclusions? :ehh:
M
mgrfin
Guest
Sandusky:
Your question: How do you know what the scripture means? What method have you employed to arrive at your personal conclusions?
My abbreviated answer: God must have ordained some sort of revelation outside of SS as the means by which we could know what scripture was.
Scripture isn’t the sole source of revelation? Read the Scriptures to find out what it said about Tradition.
Paul commands adherence to Tradition.
2 Thess 2:15 So, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth, or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
What is this mysterious tradition of which St. Paul speaks to which we are to hold fast?
Paul is commanding obedience not only to written scripture, but oral teaching, or what we define as ‘sacred tradition’.
A similar thought is found in St. Luke: 1:3-4: It seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of things you have been taught” (that is oral teaching)…
John is explicit in twice acknowledging that his mention of specific stories and teachings of Jesus is not meant to deny other extra-biblical traditions (john 20:30) (john 21:25).so long as these traditions do not oppose his teaching and that of the other apostles.
For John, as for Paul and Luke, the litmus test for authentic Christian teaching is not “Is this written?” But, “Is this apostolic”?
There is not testimony, in anywhere or in minimum mention in all of Sacred Scripture that the apostolic tradition was destined to be wholly committed to writing. Nor did Jesus ever commit a single word to writing The biblical writings do not contain the entirety of biblical teaching or tradition.
How do you know as an Evangelical that the Scriptures contain the entirety of apostolic tradition?
Neither did Luke, or Paul or John spell out for us what these traditions, these oral teachings were – how many, to what extent, and where they were located?
These traditions were not to disappear once these scriptures were complete, for we did not know when the Scriptures were complete, and what was not in the (future) ‘completed’ writings.
The Sacred Traditions we speak of, what was not written down, what was taught, was taught to the Church which Christ founded, by the Apostles, and kept by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete that Jesus sent after his Ascension.
As a Catholic I can rely on the Catholic Church, who holds these truths, and the Holy Spirit unfailingly guides the Church of Christ. I rely on this Church to instruct me in the mysteries and doctrines, and dogmas of the Faith, and to instruct me in the Scriptures as well.
As a Protestant, you have only the Scriptures, which the Holy Church shares with you. But you have no way of knowing that any of these books are ‘the Scriptures’, the full canon of the Old and New Testament, and what any of it authentically and infallibly means. I do not have ‘personal’ and ‘private’ interpretations of Scripture, as Luther had, so I adhere to the True Faith.Y
peace
S
sandusky
Guest
That still doesn’t answer my question.
What method have you employed to arrive at your personal conclusions concerning the meaning of scripture?
M
MariaG
Guest
I used scripture alone and was led by the Holy Spirit. And later found my personal conclusions matched that of the Catholic Church
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Ginger2
Guest
S
sandusky
Guest
Thank you, Maria. :tiphat:I used scripture alone and was led by the Holy Spirit. And later found my personal conclusions matched that of the Catholic Church
B
byoby
Guest
I do not claim any kind of authorative private interpretation of scripture, I pray and hope that through the Holy Spirit that the message and truths of the scriptures are made plain to me.
I am a member of the one mystical body of Christ on earth, the True Church, which the gates of hell will not prevail against. I believe that everyone here is a member as well if Christ is Lord of your life. Jesus says that wherever two or more gather in my name, there I am with them. The True Church is not Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, but those members of these Churches who have truly made Christ the Lord of there own life. I have seen St. Augustine quoted and believe he says something to the effect of wherever two or more gather in my name, there is the Catholic Church. Jesus did not say this and twisting scripture in this way is very misleading. Someone should have corrected him a long time ago. If Saint Augustine did not say it then correct me. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the voice of the word of God and our teacher. The Holy Spirit will use the Church (All of us who are Christians) to proclaim the scriptures.
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byoby
Guest
This is another problem that I have with the Catholic Church. By what authority can you judge that I am powerless without the Catholic Church, unless it is the Catholic Church that leads you to believe it. Being a member of the Catholic Church, by acceptance of its very own beliefs would cause me to judge someone elses salvation and power of interpretation by that persons belief in the Catholic Church. Is this not what you have claimed on a previous post? We are not to judge someones eternity, that is for Christ alone. I do not believe in any way that God is going to judge us by Catholocism, but by the ten commandments. Does the Catholic Church make exceptions for people who might have passed on outside the Catholic Church?
I am powerless, it is only God through me that I might have any power at all.
Due to the fallen nature of man (the church is man which is the visible body of Christ) which has been redeemed and forgiven by Christ, but not yet perfected, there is not an error free anything until Christ comes again.
Back to the subject:
How does a Catholic know that a particular Saint that is prayed to is even in Heaven?
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Pax
Guest
I strongly suggest with all good will and charity that you study everything scripture says about the Church. Read the 17th Chapter of John’s gospel on unity, and read all of the things in the NT letters concerning factions, divisions, and errant doctrines. Also look at the Book of Revelation and notice how Jesus speaks of the seven churches. Please note that the number seven is a sign of perfection and completeness. The reference to the seven churches ultimately means the whole church and all of these churches are to share the same doctrines. The criticisms of the churches pertain to idolatry and sinfulness. Jesus also condemns the false doctrine of the Nicoliatans. They are all warned to remain faithful to teachings. That faithfulness pertains to the truth. There is only one truth.
In Augustine’s time there was but one Church…the Catholic Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was discipled and ordained by the apostle John, was the first to use the term “Catholic” in his writings. The Church is a visible Church. It is not an invisible body of believers that share some doctrines and disagree on many others. Study history and learn about the Church. You cannot depend upon what you see in the diverse and divided condition of Christianity today to come to the conclusion that the Church is some loose collection of believers with differing doctrines, practices, and beliefs.
Division and varied doctrines are condemned in scripture and they are destructive to the truth. This is not in keeping with the prayer of Jesus in John 17. Jesus prays for the unity that is the same as the unity between He and the Father. Jesus also said that we are to know the truth and the truth will set you free. Surely, contradictory and diverse doctrines will not bring you to the truth that Jesus has in mind. A unified body of belief and doctrine protected by the historic Church of Christ protects and promulgates the true doctrines of Jesus and the apostles. Without a Church that holds the keys there is no hope for preserving the truth.
I would also suggest studying the writings of Augustine…I think you’ll change your negative opinion of him.
In Augustine’s time there was but one Church…the Catholic Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was discipled and ordained by the apostle John, was the first to use the term “Catholic” in his writings. The Church is a visible Church. It is not an invisible body of believers that share some doctrines and disagree on many others. Study history and learn about the Church. You cannot depend upon what you see in the diverse and divided condition of Christianity today to come to the conclusion that the Church is some loose collection of believers with differing doctrines, practices, and beliefs.
Division and varied doctrines are condemned in scripture and they are destructive to the truth. This is not in keeping with the prayer of Jesus in John 17. Jesus prays for the unity that is the same as the unity between He and the Father. Jesus also said that we are to know the truth and the truth will set you free. Surely, contradictory and diverse doctrines will not bring you to the truth that Jesus has in mind. A unified body of belief and doctrine protected by the historic Church of Christ protects and promulgates the true doctrines of Jesus and the apostles. Without a Church that holds the keys there is no hope for preserving the truth.
I would also suggest studying the writings of Augustine…I think you’ll change your negative opinion of him.
B
byoby
Guest
I do not have a low opinion of Augustine, just a conflict with his quote.
I agree that there is one church that is made up of physical humans. The differing doctrines and idolatry only condemed the members of that local church body who did not repent of them, not the entire Church Body. These practices were not obviously shared by all 7 of the local church bodies because they are each addressed differently, which shows a lack of uniform doctrine in the early church. All of those who do repent are members of the True Church which will share in the promises of God. Does this not historicaly show that even in the beginning people have attempted to add doctrines and practices that are condemed by God? Do you believe that sinfullness and false doctrines have somehow been eradicated and cease to exist in the Church today?
I also believe in one truth, just wary of anyone or any one organization claiming to possess it other than God. Do you see how this claim could be made to control people?
My ultimate opinion is always formed by what people or organizations do regardless of what they say. Remember Judas? He was taught by Jesus himself. Just because someone is a disciple or successor does not in my mind make me believe that they must be correct historicaly or not. If an untruth is historicaly believed does that make it true?
The True Church is not some loose collection of Christians, but an extremely unified group of people under Christ who try to follow the commands of Christ without judging for themselves who is more approved by God. To me this is the lesson to be learned from Pauls teachings.
I agree that there is one church that is made up of physical humans. The differing doctrines and idolatry only condemed the members of that local church body who did not repent of them, not the entire Church Body. These practices were not obviously shared by all 7 of the local church bodies because they are each addressed differently, which shows a lack of uniform doctrine in the early church. All of those who do repent are members of the True Church which will share in the promises of God. Does this not historicaly show that even in the beginning people have attempted to add doctrines and practices that are condemed by God? Do you believe that sinfullness and false doctrines have somehow been eradicated and cease to exist in the Church today?
I also believe in one truth, just wary of anyone or any one organization claiming to possess it other than God. Do you see how this claim could be made to control people?
My ultimate opinion is always formed by what people or organizations do regardless of what they say. Remember Judas? He was taught by Jesus himself. Just because someone is a disciple or successor does not in my mind make me believe that they must be correct historicaly or not. If an untruth is historicaly believed does that make it true?
The True Church is not some loose collection of Christians, but an extremely unified group of people under Christ who try to follow the commands of Christ without judging for themselves who is more approved by God. To me this is the lesson to be learned from Pauls teachings.
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mgrfin
Guest
Firstly, despite your protestations to the contrary, you are claiming private interpretation of Scripture for yourself.
Secondly, Catholicism would say that you are not a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. That is reserved for members of the Catholic Church.
The true Church is the Catholic Church. “Credo…0in unam, sanctam, catholicam, apostolicam Ecclesiam…”
At the time in church history, Augustine’s ‘twisting’ as you call it of Matt 18: 20 was legitimate. “Whereever two or three are gathered, I am there in the midst of them” could only refer to the Catholic Church, cause that is all there was. The “them” is the Church only. What was true in Augustine’s time is still true. These other ‘churches’ are not real churches, but ‘communities’ as Benedict XVI says.
The Holy Spirit will guide the Catholic Church to interprete the Scriptures, according to the Promise. “If I don’t not go, He cannot come”. Christ promised to send us the Paraclete to be with us until the end of time, and the gates of hell will not prevail against us.
peace
M
mgrfin
Guest
From everything you have said, to me, you have said that the true church is some loose collection of Christians - Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Jews, Moselms, etc.
Catholics say that Christ’s Body, the Church, is unified and organized for the worship of God, and the salvation of its ‘saints’.
St. Paul loves us, just as he loved all the churches in the Holy Land which he founded.
peace
G
Ginger2
Guest
Since when do Christians consider “Jews, Muslims, etc” Christians?
“Jews, Muslims, etc” don’t even consider themselves Christians.
Did byoby actually say this or is it another example of you twisting other people’s comments.
reference please?
G
Ginger2
Guest
Mar 9:38-40 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
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Pax
Guest
This is a completely illogical statement and is not supported by the book of Revelation. Please note that the criticisms of the seven churches pertain to errant practices and doctrines. Obviously, idol worship, grave sin, and the error of the Nicoliatans were sinfulness and outright heresy. It is the rest of the doctrines that are not criticized that are true and held by the entire church that are not mentioned. Jesus would be making the same corrections concerning sola fide and sola scriptura if he were to make the address to Christianity today.
Please show me the “light that sits upon the hill that cannot be hidden” that is the extremely unified group of people under Christ of whom you speak. Please show me in Protestantism how the unity that Jesus prays for in John 17 is being fulfilled. Specifically, show me how that unity is “visible” in such a way that it is “showing the world that the Father sent Jesus” per John 17.
No one is talking about who is more approved by God. Needless to say, there are many Catholics that are very sinful and who are not approved by God. Likewise, we wouldn’t have to search far to find the same thing in Protestantism assuming we could read hearts. For every bad Catholic I can find a good Protestant. Likewise, for every bad Protestant I can find a good Catholic. These facts, and the idea of who is more approved by God, has absolutely nothing to do with the issue under discussion.
We are talking about a visible unity that the world can see and we are talking about unity in faith and doctrine. We have as Paul says, “one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.” Put this together with the unity called for in John 17, and put it together with Paul’s statements below:
1 Cor 1:10-11
“Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
Phillipians 2:2
“fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.”
Ephesians 4:14
“We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,”
There are other NT passages that address this issue as well, but these should be sufficient. There is only one Church established by Jesus and scripture says so. There is to be unity that is like that of the Father and the Son, and scripture says so. There are to be no divisions, and scripture says so. We are to be of one mind and spirit, and scripture says so. We are not to have a multipliticity of doctrines because there is but one truth, and scripture says so.
Likewise, Jesus made promises to his visible and unified Church, and I believe Jesus. The Catholic Church is a marvelous 2000 year old continuing miracle of Christ. It has endured every test from within and from without and it still stands as Jesus visible beacon to the world. In spite of all of the difficulties, the gates of hell have not prevailed against His Church.
S
sandusky
Guest
Still waiting for an answer to this question from you.
What method have you employed to arrive at your personal conclusions concerning the
meaning of scripture? :ehh:
M
mgrfin
Guest
The True Church is not Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, but those members of these Churches who have truly made Christ the Lord of there own life.
Since when do Christians consider “Jews, Muslims, etc” Christians?
“Jews, Muslims, etc” don’t even consider themselves Christians.
Did byoby actually say this or is it another example of you twisting other people’s comments.
reference please?
G
Ginger2
Guest
How about that? WE agree on something!
Pax, does this fulfill your request? “Please show me in Protestantism how the unity that Jesus prays for in John 17 is being fulfilled.”
If mgrfin and I have found unity on this issue! :extrahappy:
M
mgrfin
Guest
Whoa, whoa. We do not agree at all! Another example of Ginger twisting people’s words. SHAME ON YOU!How about that? WE agree on something!
Pax, does this fulfill your request? “Please show me in Protestantism how the unity that Jesus prays for in John 17 is being fulfilled.”
If mgrfin and I have found unity on this issue! :extrahappy:
You asked me for a reference from Byoby, and I quoted it to you, and you accuse me that these are my words? Refer Post 198 and 193, please
peace
M
mgrfin
Guest
I don’t interprete Scripture privately on matters of faith and morals. I use the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, in Holy and Sacred Tradition for my answer.Still waiting for an answer to this question from you.
What method have you employed to arrive at your personal conclusions concerning the
meaning of scripture? :ehh:
I RESPONDED TO THIS QUESTION ALREADY IN MY BEAUTIFUL TREATISE IN POST #182.
I quote it to you:
Sandusky:
Your question: How do you know what the scripture means? What method have you employed to arrive at your personal conclusions?
My abbreviated answer: God must have ordained some sort of revelation outside of SS as the means by which we could know what scripture was.
Scripture isn’t the sole source of revelation? Read the Scriptures to find out what it said about Tradition.
Paul commands adherence to Tradition.
2 Thess 2:15 So, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth, or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
What is this mysterious tradition of which St. Paul speaks to which we are to hold fast?
Paul is commanding obedience not only to written scripture, but oral teaching, or what we define as ‘sacred tradition’.
A similar thought is found in St. Luke: 1:3-4: It seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of things you have been taught” (that is oral teaching)…
John is explicit in twice acknowledging that his mention of specific stories and teachings of Jesus is not meant to deny other extra-biblical traditions (john 20:30) (john 21:25).so long as these traditions do not oppose his teaching and that of the other apostles.
For John, as for Paul and Luke, the litmus test for authentic Christian teaching is not “Is this written?” But, “Is this apostolic”?
There is not testimony, in anywhere or in minimum mention in all of Sacred Scripture that the apostolic tradition was destined to be wholly committed to writing. Nor did Jesus ever commit a single word to writing The biblical writings do not contain the entirety of biblical teaching or tradition.
How do you know as an Evangelical that the Scriptures contain the entirety of apostolic tradition?
Neither did Luke, or Paul or John spell out for us what these traditions, these oral teachings were – how many, to what extent, and where they were located?
These traditions were not to disappear once these scriptures were complete, for we did not know when the Scriptures were complete, and what was not in the (future) ‘completed’ writings.
The Sacred Traditions we speak of, what was not written down, what was taught, was taught to the Church which Christ founded, by the Apostles, and kept by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete that Jesus sent after his Ascension.
As a Catholic I can rely on the Catholic Church, who holds these truths, and the Holy Spirit unfailingly guides the Church of Christ. I rely on this Church to instruct me in the mysteries and doctrines, and dogmas of the Faith, and to instruct me in the Scriptures as well.
As a Protestant, you have only the Scriptures, which the Holy Church shares with you. But you have no way of knowing that any of these books are ‘the Scriptures’, the full canon of the Old and New Testament, and what any of it authentically and infallibly means. I do not have ‘personal’ and ‘private’ interpretations of Scripture, as Luther had, so I adhere to the True Faith.Y
peace
- Status