You may pray that “God humble me with a gentle hand”, but you prefer to try to slap me down and keep me in my place.mgrfin,
The Apostle’s Creed is the one that I remember saying as a child in the Catholic Church I grew up in.
But once again you totally missed the point.
I do not care to converse with you mgrfin. Please do me just one favor and do not respond to my posts which are directed toward other people and I will not respond to yours.
I do not wish to have anything more to do with you until Jesus’ return, at which time we will be made perfect and will be happy to see each other.
May God humble you with a gentle hand.
The Catholic Church is called the Mystical Body of Christ. because its members are united by supernatural bonds with one another and with Jesus Christ, their Head, thus resembling the members and head of the living human body.Yes, I see how that could be misconstrued.
I was responding to mgrfin who charges that being part of the body of Christ is reserved for members of the RC.
Those who would condemn some people to hell because simply they are not members of the RC (and there are some Catholics who believe that) are in for a surprise come judgment day.
Just so we are clear, I am not a universalist. Nor do I think all roads lead to Christ. Nor do I believe that it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you are sincere.
It matters!
This was probably my fault for not choosing a better verse. Sorry.
My prayers are not meant that way. I’ve prayed the same thing for myself.I take your ‘prayer’ as a curse, some punishment in my life from God.
I suspected as much, and you have every right. So I will say goodbye. As I want no more part of the inhospitality that accompanies our discourses.Sorry, I will respond to whatever post I wish. You can ignore me if you wish.
AmenMay God grant you the grace of mercy and His forgiveness and may He show you the path of justice and light.
:extrahappy: :dancing:
I love it!
Odd. You both seem to think you have scored some kind of points in a game, or at least made a point? At least Ginger does.Thank you, Maria. :tiphat:
Ques.: What is cursing?My prayers are not meant that way. I’ve prayed the same thing for myself.
Amen
I’ve seen #224, and re-read it.see post # 224
I will address your final question first. We’ve gotten off on a tangent, but perhaps that is a necessary thing because of how we go about arriving at an answer to the OP. Generally speaking, all issues between Catholics and non-Catholics boil down to authority. Catholics accept the authority of Scripture and the Church, and the Apostolic Traditions preserved in the Church. Non-Catholics reject the authority of the Church and Tradition and generally subscribe to Sola Scriptura.The lamp that sits on a hill is you Pax, and anyone else who is a Christian.
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Do you recognize that the 7 churches in revelation are 7 different congregations in 7 different geological locations? Maybe this is where we are not seeing eye to eye.
There is only one church, one faith, and one baptism. God will judge who are the members.
What happened to the question posed in this thread?
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You’ve explained yourself and defended your experience quite well. Kudos.Odd. You both seem to think you have scored some kind of points in a game, or at least made a point? At least Ginger does.
How is any Protestant, who is unaware or disbelieves that the Catholic Church teachings are true supposed to come to this knowledge?
I know I certainly would not look to what I saw as an institution rather than what I know it to be now, Christ’s mystical body.
I do believe I have been fortunate. God eventually gave me faith in His Church just as He gave me faith in Christ and faith in His word. When pointed in that direction, I walked in faith.
But each and everytime a question came up, He faithfully answered it, with scripture and showed me that the Catholic Church’s teachings had been around much longer than the new interpretations of Protestants.
But how is a Catholic Christian, who is already aware of the truth of the teachings of the Catholic Church supposed to find out the truth? Reading scripture is very good, but as a well informed Catholic, they would be responsible for having a “well formed” conscience. And since it is quite obvious that many are have been led astray through scripture alone and the leading of what they believe to be the Holy Spirit, they would be obligated to make sure that they truly understand what is being said and lean not on their own understanding but trust the Church, which scripture in fact tells us is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Again, I can’t say this too much. Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Did that foundation crack, break or crumble? Since Christ is the cornerstone, do you see where this line of thinking ultimately leads? And while there may be those who are part of that mystical body of Christ who do not have official membership within the Catholic Church, this has only been a relatively recent occurrance in the history of Christianity.
When scripture was written, the visible and “invisible” body of Christ were one and the same thing. There was no such thing as an “invisible” body of believers, also a new interpretation of Scripture. One was either part of the visible church, or one was not a Christian.
Ah well, I pray you both will be led to all truth, since this thread has gone very far astray and this line of inquiry should be stopped. My apologies to the moderators and the OP.
God Bless,
Maria
The world sees disunity in Christianity. But they also see political disunity, national disunity, social disunity, educational disunity, employment disunity, corporate disunity. Disunity is a disease of human nature, just like sin, and war, and disease, etc. These are fruits of our fallen human nature.The Father wants unity. Jesus wants unity. The seven Churches in Revelation were united in truth. The sinners, idolators, and the heretic Nicoliatans were rebuked. You could have gone to anyone of those Churches at the time of John and they would have all been saying the same things about baptism, the Eucharist, faith and works, and all of the other significant doctrines of Christianity. Christianity was one and was totally recognizable and visible. Paul visited every one of the Churches mentioned in Revelation and he never changed his teaching. Everyone learned the same things. Today it is different and we have widely divergent doctrines in Christianity. If this were not so, you and I would not be having this discussion.
You have yet to show me the visible unity that Jesus prays for that serves as the light on the hill that will show the world that the Father sent Jesus. Look at this issue as a non-Christian/the world sees it:
–Does the world see unity in Christianity or division? Does the world see unity when one denomination claims that some other denomination is “not even Christian?”
–Does the world see the light on the hill and unity when virtually everyday a new denomination is created because someone or some group doesn’t agree with their parent congregation on some doctrine?
–Does the world see any unity when “Christians” are routinely disagreeing with one another over doctrine and practice?
–Just what visible unity can the world perceive in Christianity?
The answers to these questions seem obvious to me. I ask you to answer them honestly. Once you’ve done this you will see that there is something radically wrong in Christianity, and you will be on the road to examining the causes of the disunity as well as the sources of unity that are available.
So, if we want truth over unity, then we will, by necessity, have disunion.I would not suggest unity over truth. In my earlier posts I did mention truth a number of times, and also quoted scripture and the words of Jesus concerning the importance of truth.
If we all knew, believed, and shared the truth we would be unified. There is no doubt about that.
What you say is not true. Luther would say he was seeking the truth, but spread disunity.Not at all…if we all sought the truth, followed the truth, and accepted the truth we would automatically be unified. The latter is not disconnected from the former. Likewise, if nobody cares about the truth or actively pursues it, then no one can ever find the unity that is only in the truth. Disunity is found in conflict. Conflicts in ideas, viewpoints, doctrines, and teachings are because of disparate and divergent beliefs. In this there can be no unity for not all of the viewpoints can be true. Truth is not a relative thing. Truth is, however, a great unifier.
QUOTE]
Sacred Scripture is only part of the Deposit of Faith. Jesus was literate but never wrote one single word. He did say, and he left his Church, and He sent the Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth to be with his Church for all time.
Do you think the Messiah would leave 13000 versions of the truth?
The Catholic Church has been around from the beginning. And the Church has taught that it is the indispensable road to salvation.
**
Dominus Jesus:**
"In treating the question of the true religion, the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council taught: “We believe that this one true religion continues to exist in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which the Lord Jesus entrusted the task of spreading it among all people. Thus, he said to the Apostles: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you’ (Mt 28: 19-20). Especially in those things that concern God and his Church, all persons are required to seek the truth, and when they come to know it, to embrace it and hold fast to it”.
- Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”.77 This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.
peace
I think you and I have reached an impasse. I will say it but one more time. You have not shown me how you and I as separated brothers in Christ show unity to the world. Anyone that is truly honest about this subject can see the problem.If we are going to use unity and historical perseverence to show who the church is then what about Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism?
There is nothing wrong with Christianity, there is a lot wrong with man.
Do you believe that the Church of the bible is some mortar and brick building, some system, or reserved for clergy alone? My interpretations are not private, the fact that the church is you and I is practically screamed out in the Bible! How anyone can miss this I do not know unless it is not read in its entirety. Are you invisible Pax? am I? Will the gates of hell prevail against you? Jesus prayed for unity and we will be unified some day. God also wishes that none should perish but some will. Man and the church have not been perfected yet, but thank God that we are forgiven. It is the Catholic Church that wants to put others outside the pale of orthodoxy, not those who call themselves Christians. Baptist do not put Lutherans outside of Salvation or any other “Protestant” or Catholic Church. The “Protestant” Churches that do make the claim of being the only one are quickly and rightly so called cults. Some Catholics seem to tell me that I am not a Christian and my Church is invalid or an immitation, I nor my Church would dare say the same about Catholics. Who is the source of division here? Again I tell you that you are a lamp on a hill, like a living stone, a temple of the Holy Spirit, the church, and a heir to the promise. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise. I am by now sadly aware that this is not a Catholic teaching, I do not understand how Catholics do not see this truth in the Bible as it is so very clear. My pasture teaches the bible which is written by Apostles, Disciples, Prophets, and the Patriarchs. To claim that we do not have Apostolic teaching in our church is illogical because these are the very source of our teachings. This “private interpretation” accusation is nonsense if someone is indeed being guided by the Holy Spirit. How can it be private if God is helping you understand? It is up to you to discern with the help of the Holy Spirit what is true and what is not, the only way you can is by knowing the Word of God. Do not worry about what others think and say, but be concerned about yourself on these matters. Put your faith and hope completely in God not in any Church. God and his Word never changes but your church will. My authority is God, “The head of every man is God.” I am not an authority so test what I say against the Bible.
I think we can agree that praying to Angels or Saints is not a practice in the Bible. By the Bible I mean any book that contains prophecy or is directly quoted by O.T. Prophets, Patriarchs, Jesus or his disciples. By this definition we can agree that this practice is at the very least extra-biblical. We can also agree that praying to Saints or Angels is not how Jesus taught us to pray.
I soley and steadfastly hold scripture to be the authority and have no qualms about it. If the Scriptures are the Word of God then my reverence is rightly placed. My authority is God! It was by his word that the universe lept into existence.
Please read my post over again. I said a lot more than merely “seeking” the truth.What you say is not true. Luther would say he was seeking the truth, but spread disunity.
Calvin would say he was seeking the truth, but spread disunity.
The Truth is founded in the Roman Catholic Church. Church founded this Church on Peter, and the Holy Spirit was sent to preserve and protect it from error from the day of Pentecost til now.
Modern-day disunity in Christianity has its roots in these two ‘truthseekers’: Martin Luther, and John Calvin.
“Credo…in unam, sanctam, catholicam, apostolicam ecclesiam.”
I will take you up on the last word.I think you and I have reached an impasse. I will say it but one more time. You have not shown me how you and I as separated brothers in Christ show unity to the world. Anyone that is truly honest about this subject can see the problem.
We have also reached an impasse on the subject of prayer to the angels and saints. I think the Catholics on this thread have demonstrated that it is biblical. Even Jesus did it on the Mount of Transfiguration when He spoke with Moses and Elijah. Likewise, he did it when speaking with the angels that ministered to him after Satan had tempted him. Jesus even spoke with Satan. Likewise, he spoke to the demons when he rebuked them. Likewise, so did the apostles. Moreover, you and I have even rebuked Satan. If it’s Okay to speak to Satan and rebuke him, surely it is Okay to ask the Saints to intercede for us. This is biblical and it is common sense.
I do not believe that your conclusion can be supported by scripture whereas ours is relatively easy to support and we have given ample evidence. Our differences clearly demonstrate the problem with sola scriptura and the disunity that comes from the practice. Likewise, the rest of the world sees the disunity among us just as easily as we do. I think you are simply in denial on this issue.
I’ll give you the last word.